Honestly, black cleaver just needs to be deleted

HateDaddy·Mar 26, 2017·5 votes·379 views

it was clearly remade to be a bruiser item but it's almost never been a problem on bruisers, but it has been on every other ad class. Clearly the stats don't matter, %armor shred is an ancient and outdated concept and through all of these AD caster armor pen and lethality ADC builds, black cleaver was the one constant. Now you're seeing it again with botrk/bc combos. It synergizes with anything AD and I just can't see it being balanced now when it was changed back to its recipe for bruisers to discourage adcs from building it and yet adcs still don't care. I'm frustrated with that as a fighter player but I'm not sure if %armor shred can be reasonably balanced anymore. Not with all the tank busting items readily available.

10 Comments

Variks the LoyalMar 26, 20172 votes

Why not just give it a reduced benefit for ranged characters, rather than removing it entirely?

It's balanced just fine on Fighters.

HateDaddyMar 26, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Why not just give it a reduced benefit for ranged characters, rather than removing it entirely?

It's balanced just fine on Fighters.

Because they'd find some other way to abuse it im sure

Gregor GysiMar 26, 20171 votes

If the reduction was big enough it would be fine. Or just make it melee only.

Big LincolnMar 26, 20171 votes

probably fam

at the very least it should probably be split up into two items

but then we would have to do all sorts of stuff to buff melees who rely on it

HateDaddyMar 26, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EQT4uxKl,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-03-26T20:59:28.471+0000)

probably fam

at the very least it should probably be split up into two items

but then we would have to do all sorts of stuff to buff melees who rely on it

Yeah exactly, I just don't see how it works. Many fighters already have ways to innately deal with tanks. Darius has %armor pen, garen has his passive + E, Nasus has E, Gangplank innately ignores armor, Fiora is Fiora, Illaoi has %heals which gives her the ability to drain tank tanks. I mean honestly, do these champions need %shred anyway? They just need items that give them durability and CDR with a small trace of AD.

Big LincolnMar 26, 20172 votes

I would say Illaoi's potential for 140 to ~170% damage increase with her vessel is more important than her raw sustain. She's also HUGELY reliant on AD, though, so if we were to nerf Cleaver either in AD or its shred I think her base damage would need to be adjusted to compensate. She's already just at the average of statistics.

I like the idea of Cleaver being this fighter item that becomes stronger the longer you fight but I think it's handled poorly, especially given that the armor shred amplifies your whole team's physical damage. Maybe if it was a ramping % physical damage boost for yourself after being in combat with champions long enough, it'd be better focused on juggernauts who are encouraged to be in those long fights while simultaneously reducing the cheesy nature of ALL AD champions that can fullstack it in under 2 seconds.

Big LincolnMar 26, 20171 votes

Alternatively you could make it have a punishment itself to discourage squishy champs from using it

It got tossed around in another thread, the idea that you reduce your own armor by a flat amount, which for somebody like Lucian would be a death sentence but it'd be far more forgiving for the likes of Darius. So it's like a double-edged sword.

ApocalypsicMar 26, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Yeah exactly, I just don't see how it works. Many fighters already have ways to innately deal with tanks. Darius has %armor pen, garen has his passive + E, Nasus has E, Gangplank innately ignores armor, Fiora is Fiora, Illaoi has %heals which gives her the ability to drain tank tanks. I mean honestly, do these champions need %shred anyway? They just need items that give them durability and CDR with a small trace of AD.

Riven relies on it for CDR and the shred, herself having no innate armor pen in her kit or true damage. I build a combination of at the very least two of three ( BC, GB, LW) every game because of how absolutely necessary it is.

EedatMar 26, 20171 votes

If they remove BC then Tank's damage needs to be completely gutted. No more %HP and high base damage bandaids

WoonStruckMar 26, 20171 votes

People downvoting this. Lol.

The item is made for stat-checking. This isn't a horrible concept by itself, but with as many champions that can force an engage solo as there are, its actually really bad for the game.

Due to the nature of the item, it screams "ABUSE HIGH BASE DAMAGES WHILE BUILDING FULL DEFENSE.

It has 20% CDR, gives a pretty damn high amount of bonus MS, and allows you to counteract the itemization usually utilized to counter high base damage champs that lack scaling as the game goes on.

In addition Black Cleaver artificially gives every AD champion, full AD or not, good scaling whether their scaling is actually good or not due to it adding to burst, DPS, and tankiness pretty significantly.

I agree. It should be deleted.