Sunfire Cape is not a fair first item for top lane tanks: a cost and usage analysis

The Ecdysiast··13 votes·10,697 views

What I mean is, it isn't fair that it's the only real first item option for top lane tanks despite the myriad of problems it has when compared to the options for every other class:

  1. It is by far the least gold efficient first-buy option of any class, at only 85%. Not even including their passives, all of which are better for their classes: item 3071 100% item 3078 97% item 3030 111% item 3003 Reaches 100% at 328 mana. item 3285 104% item 3031 112% item 3147 92% item 3107 108% item 3152 95% item 3165 93% item 3146 121% And bear in mind, this is even AFTER a price reduction.
  2. That first problem exists despite the fact that top lane tanks are the champions least able to farm, since they can't reliable win trades or duels against a Fighter-class opponent of equal skill.
  3. Despite these champions being at that disadvantage when it comes to farm, Sunfire Cape has a passive that directly hinders your ability to control a wave or farm under tower.
  4. Despite the kits of any champion who does build black cleaver first already being counters to tanks, its passive widens the gap between it and Sunfire to comical levels. (my full analysis of that is available here, though sunfire did recently get a 150g reduction, so take that into account https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/5FsJfYi6-sunfire-cape-costs-more-than-black-cleaver )
  5. Even though top lane tanks have some of the highest mana costs and cooldowns of any champions, their best (but still bad) option to buy first doesn't provide any mana or CDR. And if they do choose to buy mana/cdr with Gauntlet/Heart, then they won't have enough defense since they won't have health.

Now, I'm not saying that Sunfire should be changed. Personally I think it has no place in the game since its waveclear is only really good for splitpushing, but tanks need to be with the team to engage/counterengage by the time splitting becomes viable.

I think a new item should be introduced to actually give tanks stats they need, like a first item should.


With that in mind, I want to discuss why Sunfire is in such a terrible spot and what a replacement could look like. The main culprit is the Tank "Update" of 7.9, which saw the reduction of total effective health across the board for all tank items with health. What that means, and which was actually their stated intention, is that you get less defense against magic when you buy Sunfire and less defense against physical damage when you buy Visage.

But I do not think that that should be the case for a starting item. There should be a single tank item which is an exception to that rule, granting just enough flat HP and the CDR/mana a tank needs to deal with their high costs and cooldowns, without any offensive stats for fighters to abuse. My suggestion is:

Breastplate of Valoran: Cost- 2900g Components: item 3067 (800g) item 3010 (1100g) item 1028 (400g) Combine Cost: 600

500 HP (600 with the passive) 350 Mana 10% CDR (20% including Haste) Unique Passive: +100 HP (since those items would add up to 575, but I don't want people to just stack a bunch of this) Unique Passive: HASTE: 10% CDR Unique passive: Self shields (only shields) are 10% stronger

600 HP, 350 mana, and 20% CDR would total 2626g in stats, making the item 91% gold efficient not including the shield passive.

(for comparison, Sunfire has 680 effective health against physical damage. Just so you don't look at 600 and think it's too much without realizing I'm suggesting an item with neither armor nor MR)

68 Comments

Critmaster Garen13 votes

That first problem exists despite the fact that top lane tanks are the champions least able to farm, since they can't reliable win trades or duels against a Fighter-class opponent of equal skill.

this isnt even close to true. tanks often outstat fighters early game. especially when rushing sunfire cape and bramble vest. they eventually get outscaled at 2 or 3 items, but before the first 2 items are completed, they often outtrade fighters.

try to trade into Maokai Poppy or Shen with someone like Garen or a lot of squishier fighters, and they often just straight up win at early levels.

from experience i know that i need at the very least a completed cleaver before i can start trading with those champions on garen.

tanks want to roam. to roam, they need to be able to push in minion waves. sunfire cape does its job in that regard.

The Ecdysiast7 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EPkAL1Az,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-02-24T15:45:57.387+0000)

this isnt even close to true. tanks often outstat fighters early game. especially when rushing sunfire cape and bramble vest. they eventually get outscaled at 2 or 3 items, but before the first 2 items are completed, they often outtrade fighters.

try to trade into Maokai or Shen with someone like Garen or a lot of squishier fighters, and they often just straight up win at early levels.

tanks want to roam. to roam, they need to be able to push in minion waves. sunfire cape does its job in that regard.

I can say the same to you. That isn't even close to true. If you're counting only levels 1-3, sure. But tanks on the whole have lower base stats, lower damage, higher costs, higher cooldowns, overall less ability to fight. And as the game continues fighters only get better at dueling tanks.

Critmaster Garen12 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EPkAL1Az,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-02-24T15:50:25.507+0000)

I can say the same to you. That isn't even close to true. If you're counting only levels 1-3, sure. But tanks on the whole have lower base stats, lower damage, higher costs, higher cooldowns, overall less ability to fight. And as the game continues fighters only get better at dueling tanks.

as the game continues, yes. i did say that.

tanks get outtraded by fighters after a couple items (as is intended), but early on tanks often outtrade. sunfire cape as a rush item provides them with waveclear to be able to to push in and roam into other lanes to get them ahead and make plays.

an item like youre proposing would have an entirely different function.

The Ecdysiast2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EPkAL1Az,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-24T15:53:44.091+0000)

as the game continues, yes. i did say that.

tanks get outtraded by fighters after a couple items (as is intended), but early on tanks often outtrade. sunfire cape as a rush item provides them with waveclear to be able to to push in and roam into other lanes to get them ahead and make plays.

an item like youre proposing would have an entirely different function.

Not after a couple of items. After a single item. The point you're making only applies to the point in the game before either player has one full item, which makes it entirely moot when talking about the first item.

Sunfire in theory does what you're saying, but in practice it does not. That is precisely why I'm proposing a different item.

5StackUltOneShot2 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EPkAL1Az,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-02-24T15:50:25.507+0000)

I can say the same to you. That isn't even close to true. If you're counting only levels 1-3, sure. But tanks on the whole have lower base stats, lower damage, higher costs, higher cooldowns, overall less ability to fight. And as the game continues fighters only get better at dueling tanks.

Yea yea, totally lower damage when Ornn is dealing 540 magic dmg with bellows breath and 680 with R. Oh yah, the 328 magic dmg from sunfire was fun as well.

It fucking traumatized me, imagine being a Darius with cleaver + mercs and Conqueror and being out damaged by an Ornn with item 3068 item 3047 and item 3057. The only advantage Ornn had on me was he was level 11 and I was on 10. Moreover, tanks get more item efficiency as all of them take conditioning and tanks like Ornn have innate +10% armor (similar to other tanks like poppy) brining him up to +18% Armor/MR from all items ontop of the fact he gets free bonus armor/stats from lvl 13 and then gives that to his team every level after.

But yah dude, Darius and Garen deal alot of damage nerf pls riot unplayable game.

So in total, Darius has a single CC on a 9 sec cd (with 30% cdr) and lots of dmg with a situational heal and a 90% slow that requires melee range, Ornn has a team wide aoe CC that applies brittle, %health damage at absurd amounts, another aoe cc, a slow from range and an unstoppable with a passive that gives him a 2k gold advantage at lvl 13 and 4k gold advantage for his team.

Nice

The Ecdysiast2 votes

{quoted}

Yea yea, totally lower damage when Ornn is dealing 540 magic dmg with bellows breath and 680 with R. Oh yah, the 328 magic dmg from sunfire was fun as well.

It fucking traumatized me, imagine being a Darius with cleaver + mercs and Conqueror and being out damaged by an Ornn with item 3068 item 3047 and item 3057. The only advantage Ornn had on me was he was level 11 and I was on 10. Moreover, tanks get more item efficiency as all of them take conditioning and tanks like Ornn have innate +10% armor (similar to other tanks like poppy) brining him up to +18% Armor/MR from all items ontop of the fact he gets free bonus armor/stats from lvl 13 and then gives that to his team every level after.

But yah dude, Darius and Garen deal alot of damage nerf pls riot unplayable game.

So in total, Darius has a single CC on a 9 sec cd (with 30% cdr) and lots of dmg with a situational heal and a 90% slow that requires melee range, Ornn has a team wide aoe CC that applies brittle, %health damage at absurd amounts, another aoe cc, a slow from range and an unstoppable with a passive that gives him a 2k gold advantage at lvl 13 and 4k gold advantage for his team.

Nice

Again, we're talking about early game. Where having only one item matters.

Ornn can't even deal 540 damage to himself at level 18 with Bellow's Breath+Brittle. So you're... just lying. And his ultimate deals a maximum of 450 damage at level 16....

Then you went ahead and proved yourself wrong by having to add a sheen on top of sunfire to not actually match Darius with just a cleaver, ignoring his entire kit to do so.

You're not even trying. Come on.

5StackUltOneShot1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EPkAL1Az,comment-id=0000000000020000,timestamp=2019-02-25T06:28:00.357+0000)

Again, we're talking about early game. Where having only one item matters.

Ornn can't even deal 540 damage to himself at level 18 with Bellow's Breath+Brittle. So you're... just lying. And his ultimate deals a maximum of 450 damage at level 16....

Then you went ahead and proved yourself wrong by having to add a sheen on top of sunfire to not actually match Darius with just a cleaver, ignoring his entire kit to do so.

You're not even trying. Come on.

?

Either im blind or death recap is wrong. Choose which one you want.

Second, bruisers are designed to destroy, demolish and fucking annihilate tanks mid/late game. A tank wins early to the start of mid game. Thats just common sense. If you want them to scale into late game then youve obviously been playing a different game than the rest of us

The Ecdysiast2 votes

{quoted}

?

Either im blind or death recap is wrong. Choose which one you want.

Second, bruisers are designed to destroy, demolish and fucking annihilate tanks mid/late game. A tank wins early to the start of mid game. Thats just common sense. If you want them to scale into late game then youve obviously been playing a different game than the rest of us

Well, that explains it. Death recap has never worked correctly, my dude. Sometimes it even lists spells that aren't in the game, or item effects that have long since been removed.

A quick look at either the wiki or his tooltip in-game would give you the information you're seeking.

No, a tank does not win early to the start of mid game. A tank might win, levels 3-5. Any fighter with a shorter cooldown will win a level 1 or 2 fight, and at level 6.

And no, tanks are not meant to be destroyed mid game. Mid game is where they're meant to be strongest, since it's after their weak early game and before ADCs and other hypercarries have their anti-tank items. THAT is common sense--- but then again, so is knowing that the death recap is extremely buggy.

I don't blame you personally. A lot of new players struggle with tanks because they don't know how to position properly against them. But do recognize that you're in no way remotely correct on this particular matter.

Just think about it for a moment. Why in the hell would it be "common sense" for a class specifically designed for doing well in team fights to be "fucking annihilated" at every point starting from when teamfights actually become a thing? That just doesn't follow even your own reasoning.

5StackUltOneShot1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EPkAL1Az,comment-id=000000000002000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-25T13:40:29.202+0000)

Well, that explains it. Death recap has never worked correctly, my dude. Sometimes it even lists spells that aren't in the game, or item effects that have long since been removed.

A quick look at either the wiki or his tooltip in-game would give you the information you're seeking.

No, a tank does not win early to the start of mid game. A tank might win, levels 3-5. Any fighter with a shorter cooldown will win a level 1 or 2 fight, and at level 6.

And no, tanks are not meant to be destroyed mid game. Mid game is where they're meant to be strongest, since it's after their weak early game and before ADCs and other hypercarries have their anti-tank items. THAT is common sense--- but then again, so is knowing that the death recap is extremely buggy.

I don't blame you personally. A lot of new players struggle with tanks because they don't know how to position properly against them. But do recognize that you're in no way remotely correct on this particular matter.

Just think about it for a moment. Why in the hell would it be "common sense" for a class specifically designed for doing well in team fights to be "fucking annihilated" at every point starting from when teamfights actually become a thing? That just doesn't follow even your own reasoning.

Buddy, I get it. You dont play ranked, its fine. When you go up against real players feel free to teach me more

The Ecdysiast2 votes

{quoted}

Buddy, I get it. You dont play ranked, its fine. When you go up against real players feel free to teach me more

You can try to trash talk all you want. What I said was based in fact.

5StackUltOneShot1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EPkAL1Az,comment-id=00000000000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-25T23:32:33.407+0000)

You can try to trash talk all you want. What I said was based in fact.

Based on your URF experience? Or solo que matches?

The Ecdysiast2 votes

{quoted}

Based on your URF experience? Or solo que matches?

I was referring to the fact more seasoned players would know the death recap has always been bugged. It doesn't take being diamond to be able to see numbers. The fact you're trying to use your own biased opinion as a Darius main is hilarious.

Funny how it's only juggernaut mains who cry like this when presented with the actual facts.

So afraid that you won't be able to just abuse the fact you have the advantage against anything but hard counters that you'll flat out reject reality.

ZephyrDrake6 votes

if Sunfire was actually weak then sure but it isn't. A lot of tanks don't even have self shields so guess what? your "replacement" is useless on a good chunk of tanks. Good job on making an item that is better on many champions that aren't tanks

The Ecdysiast2 votes

{quoted}

if Sunfire was actually weak then sure but it isn't. A lot of tanks don't even have self shields so guess what? your "replacement" is useless on a good chunk of tanks. Good job on making an item that is better on many champions that aren't tanks

It.... is though. Where is your claim coming from? The fact that there are no tanks in the top 22 top lane champs, with the best performing one being Poppy or Sion at only a 49% win rate? Yeah, right.

I try my best to provide the facts, and people just come in with nothing but negativity bias from personal experience. It's rather tiring.

Targon4 votes

What if Sunfire Cape was toggle-able? That could help in managing waves and attacking turrets without drawing aggro if nearby enemies get in range.

Frosted Tips3 votes

Honestly this should have been a thing all along. It is so dumb that I can't hit tower because I will draw agro.

The Ecdysiast2 votes

{quoted}

What if Sunfire Cape was toggle-able? That could help in managing waves and attacking turrets without drawing aggro if nearby enemies get in range.

That should be the case anyway, but it doesn't fix the fact it's only 85% gold efficient and provides none of the other stats you'd need as a tank that every other class just gets with their item.

What's most ridiculous is that tank items were specifically nerfed so that they wouldn't have as much defense against the opposite damage type to the defense they're building, but every other class does get all the stats they want.

Tanks aren't allowed to have that 75 HP to deal with magic damage if they bought Sunfire, but:

Assassins are allowed penetration, cooldown reduction, ward negation, and bonus damage. Mages/AP assassins are allowed high AP, high mana, and high CDR instead of having to choose between items with only two of those. Fighters are allowed nearly as much health, damage, movement speed, armor shred and high CDR, or spellblade instead of shred if they're so much stronger as to not even need shred against an opponent building Sunfire. Many ADCs have the option of building Bork first for %HP damage, attack speed, damage, lifesteal, and a slow+damage active. Even Supports can build ally healing/shielding along with +heal and shield power, and cooldown reduction

Tanks are the only class, even if we were to make Sunfire a toggle ability, that don't get decent amounts of every single stat they want with their first item. And all I'm suggesting is that they get what actually acts like a first item does, given all those as precedents.

PopcornBunni2 votes

It gets really bad if you look at what Sunfire would need to compete with its damage-dealing parallels.

To reach 100% gold efficiency (which would still leave it slot inefficient with its low allowance of stats for its cost), it would need 416.66 gold worth of combined armor and/or HP

That would be 156.25 health alone, or 20.8 armor alone. Or somewhere between the two, like 25 health and 17.5 armor

item 3068 450 health 75 Armor would make the item 98% cost efficient, which would definitely be a boon, even if the item's slot cost would still weigh it down significantly. I wouldn't want to increase its cost since the passive is the only thing that keeps tanks able to CS after getting it first item, so maybe instead go with more slot efficiency on item 3742 item 3143 item 3075 item 3110 item 3025 item 3194 item 3193 item 3001 since they're built later.

The Ecdysiast2 votes

{quoted}

It gets really bad if you look at what Sunfire would need to compete with its damage-dealing parallels.

To reach 100% gold efficiency (which would still leave it slot inefficient with its low allowance of stats for its cost), it would need 416.66 gold worth of combined armor and/or HP

That would be 156.25 health alone, or 20.8 armor alone. Or somewhere between the two, like 25 health and 17.5 armor

item 3068 450 health 75 Armor would make the item 98% cost efficient, which would definitely be a boon, even if the item's slot cost would still weigh it down significantly. I wouldn't want to increase its cost since the passive is the only thing that keeps tanks able to CS after getting it first item, so maybe instead go with more slot efficiency on item 3742 item 3143 item 3075 item 3110 item 3025 item 3194 item 3193 item 3001 since they're built later.

Your point about the passive is exactly why I want an item with mana and CDR to replace it. Every top lane tank actually does have abilities that would be suitable for farming if not for the massive costs and cooldowns.

What Sunfire does is screw with your control the exact same way many top lane mains would tell you not to rush Tiamat when you don't need it.

PopcornBunni1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EPkAL1Az,comment-id=0007000100000000,timestamp=2019-02-26T07:11:40.569+0000)Every top lane tank actually does have abilities that would be suitable for farming if not for the massive costs and cooldowns.

Not Shen : (

Sad lad only gets one ability that can even hurt minions and even then it only improves his last hit damage by about 15-30 on three minions max.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

{quoted}

Not Shen : (

Sad lad only gets one ability that can even hurt minions and even then it only improves his last hit damage by about 15-30 on three minions max.

His Q's great for that though. 15-30 damage is exactly what you need to make your autos work while under turret.

PopcornBunni4 votes

item 3075 item 3143 item 3110 are even worse, and item 3742's is the same shitty cost efficiency for raw stats.

The whole net of tank items is horrible in both cost efficiency and slot efficiency, and has been for a long, long while.

EDIT: item 3110 is actually above cost efficiency, but a lot of that comes from its mana and CDR, both of which tanks have plenty between item 3025item 3065 item 3194/item 3083 /item 3156 on physical tanks and item 3001item 3065 item 3194 item 3102 /item 3083/ item 3152 on magic-dealing ones.

Tahminatrix 3 votes

I just want weaker individual tank items and stronger full builds to make tanks weaker during laning phase and better late game.

Could easily be done by shaving 100 and hp and 15 armor/10mr off of most tank items but adding a 10% max hp armor and mr passive to specific tank items that are meant to be bought later on.

Or put a %max hp armor mr passive on every defensive item instead of a few that are bought later..

Or put more passives on tanks that increase defensive stats by a %, rammus and malphite already have this but unfortunately riot had to weaponize those armor stats and put scaling on their abilities which complicates this -.-

Ralanr2 votes

I don’t think we can be allowed better lates as that’s when tank shred is bought by everyone.

Tahminatrix 4 votes

Tank shred items arnt even bought to counter tanks though.

A Khazix / Zed/ Talon will happily go item 3071 in order to reduce their target`s armor so that their lethality will overpenetrate and allow them to do increased damage rather than reduced.

Not to mention black cleaver gives tons of flat hp and cdr which assassins LOVE since it deals with their hp issues, they can go over cdr cap and gain 12 ad for every 10% over aswell if they took transcendence.

While Garen and Darius stopped even buying black cleaver first half the time since it synergizes with their kits more and they have innate armor shred / ignore.

item 3135 is in the same boat, althought it doesn't synergize with magic pen, you can still buy it to help burst a squishy, it can cause you to do more damage to a squishy than item 3089 would give you in some situations (depending on your base damage)

item 3035 still helps against squishies as an adc

Reason why everyone buys armor pen late game, even with no tanks?

All of these items penetrate based on the enemies TOTAL ARMOR (includes base armor, riot changed it a few seasons ago)

And everyone has BASE ARMOR PER LVL

Ralanr2 votes

I wasn’t even thinking about BC (though that is a tank shred). I was more or less thinking about the LW items which any adc with a brain should build by late game so they can deal with the enemy tank.

Once tanks start getting counterbuilt, they tend to fall off, hence why tanks generally aren’t a late game class. This justifies their strong early and mid.

Tahminatrix 5 votes

Everyone has base armor per level so adc will buy last whisper late game anyway and it will still be effective, even against non tanks.

Riot changed it so last whisper and void staff penetrate a % of your resistance rather than a % of your bonus resistance.

While it doesn't synergize with lethality like black cleaver , it still performs well enough to be worth getting, even against a squishy.

The Ecdysiast2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Super Cow Swag,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EPkAL1Az,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2019-02-24T16:39:47.833+0000)

Tank shred items arnt even bought to counter tanks though.

A Khazix / Zed/ Talon will happily go item 3071 in order to reduce their target`s armor so that their lethality will overpenetrate and allow them to do increased damage rather than reduced.

Not to mention black cleaver gives tons of flat hp and cdr which assassins LOVE since it deals with their hp issues, they can go over cdr cap and gain 12 ad for every 10% over aswell if they took transcendence.

While Garen and Darius stopped even buying black cleaver first half the time since it synergizes with their kits more and they have innate armor shred / ignore.

item 3135 is in the same boat, althought it doesn't synergize with magic pen, you can still buy it to help burst a squishy, it can cause you to do more damage to a squishy than item 3089 would give you in some situations (depending on your base damage)

item 3035 still helps against squishies as an adc

Reason why everyone buys armor pen late game, even with no tanks?

All of these items penetrate based on the enemies TOTAL ARMOR (includes base armor, riot changed it a few seasons ago)

And everyone has BASE ARMOR PER LVL

As I said, fighters already counter tanks with true damage or armor shred, making the fact they can buy cleaver on top of that completely bullshit. But it's even worse when they can just abuse Trinity being better simply because their kits already have enough shred to counter the only option tanks have against them.

If you actually go check the stats on op.gg or champion.gg, you'd see that the claim that fighters are worse off than tanks early is flat out false.

ProfDrDeath1 votes

Lethality cannot reduce Armor beyond 0. Only flat reduction can reduce resistance values below 0.

https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Armor_penetration

Pandemic Punch6 votes

Weaker during laning phase!?!? Tanks are currently the weakest class in laning phase outside of traditional Supports like Braum. Outside of Sion, there arent any tanks good at laning.

Tahminatrix 2 votes

That doesn't stop people from complaining about TaNkS iN gEnErAl To StRoNg iN lAnE, WhY cAnT I DeLeTe ThEm. After they tried to burst one and wouldn't back out while everything they had was on cd.

At this point tanks will never be buffed without nerfs.

Critmaster Garen4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Super Cow Swag,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EPkAL1Az,comment-id=000100010000,timestamp=2019-02-24T16:56:07.509+0000)

That doesn't stop people from complaining about TaNkS iN gEnErAl To StRoNg iN lAnE, WhY cAnT I DeLeTe ThEm. After they tried to burst one and wouldn't back out while everything they had was on cd.

its not about being able to delete them. i dont know what tank youre talking about, but its literally not worth trading into them at early levels at all, because all that happens is you either lose the trade, or they out sustain anything you could do to them and you just burned a bunch of mana for basically no reason.

Sion Poppy Shen Maokai Ornn all those typical top lane tanks are just really strong at early levels with grasp.

maybe Malphite sucks currently? i dont know, since i havent played against one in a while, but i dont really see how a less than 2 item tank has problems duelling a less than 2 item fighter.

later on yea, fighters beat them. but if you want to 1v1 champions, pick a fighter and not a tank. sitting in a sidelane, splitpushing and 1v1ing is not the purpose of a tank. if you want to do that, just pick a bruiser. tanks are team fighters around midgame and later on, and they play around their team.

Tahminatrix 2 votes

Wasn't talking about a specific individual tank, was talking about how people throw themselves at tanks thinking they can either kill them or get them low enough to back over a simple trade and then complain after they overstayed and continued fighting the tank even though everything they had was on cd...

Which basically goes into as you said, wasting resources and mana / important cooldowns on a tank and then complaining.

Tanks do fundamentally stall lane so in a way I guess some people are right, but I think that is a problem with their ability to kill minions while being hard to kill. If they couldn't waveclear as easily then bullying them will be more impactful, and then maybe they can get a better late game.

The Ecdysiast2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Super Cow Swag,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EPkAL1Az,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-02-24T16:32:28.942+0000)

I just want weaker individual tank items and stronger full builds to make tanks weaker during laning phase and better late game.

Could easily be done by shaving 100 and hp and 15 armor/10mr off of most tank items but adding a 10% max hp armor and mr passive to specific tank items that are meant to be bought later on.

Or put a %max hp armor mr passive on every defensive item instead of a few that are bought later..

Or put more passives on tanks that increase defensive stats by a %, rammus and malphite already have this but unfortunately riot had to weaponize those armor stats and put scaling on their abilities which complicates this -.-

What you're asking for is the case right now. We're already in the situation where the items have had hp shaved off.

Flawless Fetus2 votes

Sunfire is a noob trap. That's the one item to rush if you want to lose lane.

The Ecdysiast2 votes

[{quoted}](name=BIended Fetus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EPkAL1Az,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2019-02-26T04:09:59.630+0000)

Sunfire is a noob trap. That's the one item to rush if you want to lose lane.

To be fair, as it stands picking a tank right now is a noob trap.

Flawless Fetus1 votes

Nope. Tanks are plenty viable if the person playing them is competent and they don't waste gold on useless shit like Sunfire.

The Ecdysiast2 votes

[{quoted}](name=BIended Fetus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EPkAL1Az,comment-id=000b00000000,timestamp=2019-02-26T13:51:15.753+0000)

Nope. Tanks are plenty viable if the person playing them is competent and they don't waste gold on useless shit like Sunfire.

Literally anything is viable if you're gonna make the condition: the player is so much better than the enemy so as to render it not a match of equal skill.

Based on fact tanks in general are being outperformed and outpicked by any other class that can go top or jungle is what I based my comment on, not any personal experience.

Flawless Fetus1 votes

Lol. But I didn't say that. If the person playing the tank is competent, not substantially better then their opponent, tanks are viable. You must be pulling your faces and your numbers out of your rear because they don't line up with the real ones. Lol.

xZabaksx2 votes

Dream item: Combine: item 1027 item 3067 item 3140

500hp 350mana 10% cdr 40 magic resist

Unique passive: increases health by 15%, increases armor and magic resist by 10% Unique active: remove all immobilizing debuffs (900 cd)

Making up items is fun

The Ecdysiast1 votes

{quoted}

Dream item: Combine: item 1027 item 3067 item 3140

500hp 350mana 10% cdr 40 magic resist

Unique passive: increases health by 15%, increases armor and magic resist by 10% Unique active: remove all immobilizing debuffs (900 cd)

Making up items is fun

But what is the cost? Why do you want that active on a defensive item when that kind of effect is supposed to supplement a lack of defense?

Making up silly items is one thing, but please don't disregard the work I put in to make sure my suggestion is actually something that would work for the game.

kile1472 votes

That wouldn't solve the issue OP is talking about being a good rush item because it's better in AP matchups. It's also more abuseable by non-tanks. Tenacity is a better option than the QSS active, because it reduces CC effectiveness while indirectly scaling with your inherent tankiness thus making it less attractive on non-tanks.

FFrazien2 votes

Hey, I would rather play versus Sunfire tanks rather than lethality Jayce, Rylai Cassio or god forbid Kennen, thank you.

The Ecdysiast2 votes

{quoted}

Hey, I would rather play versus Sunfire tanks rather than lethality Jayce, Rylai Cassio or god forbid Kennen, thank you.

Id Jayce, Cass, and Kennen are the champions you dislike, then something that'd make tanks a little more viable is exactly the sort of thing you want. It'd mean you see those three less.

It seems you only read the title.

Paroe2 votes

ya know this has been bugging me, so i wanna do some math. HP is 2.6g per 1 Armor is 20g per 1

Sunfire cape has 60 armor and 425 HP. 60 armor is 1200g. 425 HP is 1105g. 1200+1105= 2305 2305/2750 = ~0.83 Previously, sunfire was 2900g. Which would have made it ~79% gold efficient.

With this in mind, instead of just making new items, why not just bring tank items into the 90% efficiency range with 2600g total costs?

TheBrothersGrymm2 votes

My fav part of sunfire is they lower the cost by 100 and call it a buff LOL

The Ecdysiast1 votes

{quoted}

My fav part of sunfire is they lower the cost by 100 and call it a buff LOL

And yet even with that cost reduction it's STILL only 85% efficient. Riddle me that.

kile1471 votes

I've always felt that tanks should get a Tear item 3070 option. Right now both AP and AD have options, that while niche they do what they set out to do. Tanks should get one that gives health or Armor. It wouldn't necessarily be cost efficient right away but would hopefully solve mana issues while also letting them scale into a slot efficient item.

Tear Item with HP:

item 3070 + item 3105 + 350 = 2300 Gold

30 Armor 30 Magic Resist 250-1000 mana based on tear stacks

Unique Passive: Awe - Grants health equal to 15% of maximum mana. Refunds 15% of mana spent.

Unique Passive: Mana Charge -Grants +6 maximum mana on spell cast, mana expenditure, or auto attack. (Max 3 times per 12 seconds)

OR

A similar one that I came up with awhile back that gave armor instead, and hoped to solve the problem of mages not having an armor option to rush that helped them sustain mana, and tanks not having as many Armor+AP options as Armor+AD:

item 3070 + item 3191 + 950 = 2900 Gold

60 AP 30 Armor 250 -1000 Mana Based on tear stacks

Unique Passive: Awe - Grants armor equal to 2% of maximum mana. Refunds 15% of mana spent.

Unique Passive: Mana Charge - Grants +6 maximum mana on spell cast, mana expenditure, or auto attack. (Max 3 times per 12 seconds)

The Ecdysiast2 votes

{quoted}

I've always felt that tanks should get a Tear item 3070 option. Right now both AP and AD have options, that while niche they do what they set out to do. Tanks should get one that gives health or Armor. It wouldn't necessarily be cost efficient right away but would hopefully solve mana issues while also letting them scale into a slot efficient item.

OR

A similar one that I came up with awhile back that gave armor instead, and hoped to solve the problem of mages not having an armor option to rush that helped them sustain mana, and tanks not having as many Armor+AP options as Armor+AD:

The only problem with that is how niche tear items are. The champions who can buy them effectively are those with low enough cooldowns to spam spells. Tanks don't really have that, it they can't. Because they need relatively longer cooldowns to make hard CC fair.

It actually would've worked for a few tanks, particularly old Sejuani and old Maokai since they had toggled mana-drain spells. But now that even those two lost those abilities there's no one it would work on.

kile1471 votes

That's actually why I made it so that both options could be charged by autoing (like item 3004 ) so that they could charge the item without wasting their cooldowns. They could also have their charge rate increased, so that they wouldn't feel as bad to get later.

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