Aatrox's W sustain is subpar in trades but incredibly important for sustaining in lane/jungle

Kingsgrave·May 18, 2015·12 votes·1,148 views

Why isn't this reversed?

Shouldn't Riot be promoting healthier gameplay patterns?

Increase W heal against Champs and Large Monsters and reduce it against everything else

AKA the Treatment

Example Changes

Healing on Minions and Small Monsters: 20/25/30/35/40(+25% Bonus AD) -----------> 12/14/16/18/20(+15% Bonus AD)

Healing on Champions and Large/Epic Monsters: 20/25/30/35/40(+25% Bonus AD) -------------> 36/42/48/54/60(+45% Bonus AD)

22 Comments

Teridax68May 18, 20153 votes

That would definitely be a step forward in making Aatrox healthier, but I don't think that change alone would solve all of his problems. Past the laning phase, one of the issues with Aatrox's sustain is that, when ahead, he heals so often and so much that it's practically impossible to deal with him as he's attacking people and, when behind, he dies far too quickly to make use of his sustain. Perhaps he could work as a drain tank, but he would likely need deeper changes across the whole of his kit in order to fully function.

Nightmist DarkMay 18, 20151 votes

i prefer him as a tank, he has CC in Q+E, knockup/escape with Q, slow with E. his passive offers him a 2nd life. they need to change his W and ult to make him tankier. he can't have more dmg the way he is cus it will make him OP. it's either damage or survivability, can't both.

terkmcMay 18, 20153 votes

W heal for % max health?

Duke AnaxMay 18, 20156 votes

W already hela more under half health, how about making that transition smoother:

Healing for % missing health.

PartholonianMay 18, 20152 votes

That's not just an issue with Aatrox, it's an issue with lifesteal in general. It scales too much with your stats and the enemy's.

KingsgraveMay 19, 20151 votes

{quoted}

That would definitely be a step forward in making healthier, but I don't think that change alone would solve all of his problems. Past the laning phase, one of the issues with Aatrox's sustain is that, when ahead, he heals so often and so much that it's practically impossible to deal with him as he's attacking people and, when behind, he dies far too quickly to make use of his sustain. Perhaps he could work as a drain tank, but he would likely need deeper changes across the whole of his kit in order to fully function.

It's not meant to solve all of his problems, it's to put him in a position where his actual problems could be better seen and taken care of. If you just buff him right now while his W sustain is the same against everything it makes him just an OP jack of all Trades monstrosity like he was in 2013.

Nightmist DarkMay 18, 20152 votes

they need to re-work him around his jungle/tank capabilities and nerf his lane. otherwise he cant be balanced and will remain nerfed.

KingsgraveMay 18, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Venus Project,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EPfiQgZy,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-05-18T17:24:02.661+0000)

they need to re-work him around his jungle/tank capabilities and nerf his lane. otherwise he cant be balanced and will remain nerfed.

They need to focus on the AS and Damage focused aspects of him instead of just making him another mindless Tank Bruiser.

Imotekh KharnMay 19, 20151 votes

I'd rather they strengthen his laning since he's already kind of weak in lane and there are much better Junglers out there who provide alot more for the team that i woudl rather have on my team/play

MLDzXnRRRMay 18, 20152 votes

Aatrox will be trash forever - I've played him today - tank masteries+ Mercs = 45 tenacity, still couldn't hit a single enemy in teamfight (chain CCed +knockups/knockbacks). Losing 15 % current hp just from Q and E, building tanky, feeling still squishy...

Rinky DinkyMay 21, 20151 votes

Building full tank on aatrox is stupid.

That is honestly just as dumb as building full tank fiora or teemo

Tis a nice dayMay 19, 20152 votes

Aatrox top already wins vs his jungle by a large margin http://champion.gg/champion/Aatrox/Top - 51.41% win rate http://champion.gg/champion/Aatrox/Jungle - 46.54% win rate

Say what you want about win rates being inaccurate, but a margin this large for the same champion is no coincidence. It's Aatrox's jungle that needs a buff.

KingsgraveMay 19, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tis a nice day,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EPfiQgZy,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2015-05-19T05:30:46.793+0000)

Aatrox top already wins vs his jungle by a large margin http://champion.gg/champion/Aatrox/Top - 51.41% win rate http://champion.gg/champion/Aatrox/Jungle - 46.54% win rate

Say what you want about win rates being inaccurate, but a margin this large for the same champion is no coincidence. It's Aatrox's jungle that needs a buff.

You'd have to completely rework Aatrox to make him a better Jungler.

He takes too much to get going item wise. He has weird scalings and itemization. (Doesn't want Warrior/Devourer/Cinder much at all) He has an identity crisis Role wise. (Tank/Fighter/Carry???) Q and E are really easy to dodge and his R is mostly useless as a Jungler

Rinky DinkyMay 19, 20152 votes

great idea

the good ole' renekton treatment.

qetzelMay 18, 20151 votes

I suppose this might mean that other players will never trade with Aatrox because he heals back up as they are fighting. At least now they have a chance to win with an all in. On the other hand, poke and harass would stick more, but what is Aatrox doing if he isn't returning at least some of that?

I don't know... Heavy sustain in lane has always been an issue. I'm not sure such a simple change would fix it.

KingsgraveMay 19, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I suppose this might mean that other players will never trade with Aatrox because he heals back up as they are fighting. At least now they have a chance to win with an all in. On the other hand, poke and harass would stick more, but what is Aatrox doing if he isn't returning at least some of that?

I don't know... Heavy sustain in lane has always been an issue. I'm not sure such a simple change would fix it.

He would still be burstable and CCable like he has now, he'll just be easier to punish and push out of lane. Right now it's really hard to actually kill him. He hardly wins lane but you can't kill him easily.

PartholonianMay 18, 20151 votes

I'd be hesitant to wreck him for the jungle when he's already weak in lane. And it's not like you'd really have the option of attacking a champion instead -- if jungle aatrox gets an opportunity to attack a champion at all, it's probably a gank where he needs to be on blood price to burst them down before they reach safety.

Reduction ONLY against minions might be feasible though, if combined with some other buff.

KingsgraveMay 19, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I'd be hesitant to wreck him for the jungle when he's already weak in lane. And it's not like you'd really have the option of attacking a champion instead -- if jungle aatrox gets an opportunity to attack a champion at all, it's probably a gank where he needs to be on blood price to burst them down before they reach safety.

Reduction ONLY against minions might be feasible though, if combined with some other buff.

His Jungle is bad because his low base stats combined with his easy to dodge Q and E in ganks. He also has bad itemization and needs a lot of farm to get his items, so he'll never be an effective Jungler.

kile147May 19, 20151 votes

Riot doesn't like champs that use lifesteal to tank. If made powerful champs like Aatrox and Vladimir basically can't be killed because you build too much health on them to burst them, and then they just outheal your damage. Once fed nobody can out-damage their healing and they become unstoppable unless they are stupid and focus a tank while a carry wrecks thems. These guys basically become raid bosses, but without the stupid computer AI that allows humans to beat raid bosses.

I like Aatrox, but his kit needs some changes before they can't let him be powerful.

Rinky DinkyMay 19, 20151 votes

Grevious wounds?

kile147May 19, 20151 votes

A good counter, though I don't think they like that much either since I think item 3165 is the only way to build it into your kit now. My guess is they'd much rather get rid of grievous wounds, and the health regen abusers who make it needed.