what's up Meddler? why are you making Rylai worse than pre-Buff?

Ahristocats·Nov 24, 2016·92 votes·4,319 views

what's the point of trying to balance things if we just in the end do steps backwards, steps so big that it ends worse than before?

Why did you gut the efficiency AND THE SLOW at the same time? to leave it with no purpose? no strength?

Meddler, if you find this logical to make rylai worse than before, i have no words. If you agree with me and acknowledge that an other solution is needed, PLEASE stop breaking your head on a wall to think about a solution and revert it to the initial Rylai

Thanks

117 Comments

AirKingNeoNov 24, 201612 votes

Because it's an overpowered unhealthy item that needed nerfs.

EDIT: I can't believe so many people down voted me. Weren't you the guys saying Cassio with Rylai's was incredibly broken? Or how it make playing melee champions against a mage (not in lane of course) impossible? Mordekaiser you say? That's like saying we should buff Aatrox because they removed Devourer or gutted Rageblade, but we don't have a resident Aatrox player for people to complain for. The item is completely unhealthy and should be gutted like Mallet.

ErdamonNov 24, 201629 votes

item 3046 item 3156

AirKingNeoNov 24, 20164 votes

Yeah, those 2 need nerfs. Though Maw is slightly balanced.

EDIT: Downvoted because I agree with him? Or are people just salty I said Rylai deserved to be nerfed? Move on with your lives.

ErdamonNov 24, 201618 votes

So long as Maw retains it's identity as "Get rewarded for eating all the skillshots and generally sucking dick at the game-item" I'd never dare call it balanced

TheorcheroNov 24, 20164 votes

{quoted}

So long as Maw retains it's identity as "Get rewarded for eating all the skillshots and generally sucking dick at the game-item" I'd never dare call it balanced

Thing is good tanks and support players that build tank are actually supposed to tank certain critical skillshots in high elo.

Maw is fine.

PD is retarded.

ErdamonNov 24, 201615 votes

Name me one full support/full tank that buys maw

IchiibaruNov 24, 20162 votes

I'm pretty sure Yasuo and Zed are not supports, or tanks.

ArthimetesNov 26, 20161 votes

U got downvoted for saying maw is balanced. It isn't.

AirKingNeoNov 26, 20161 votes

But Maw is balanced, that is if you're a melee champion.

ArthimetesNov 26, 20161 votes

no. it isn't.

An item that automatically activates a bubble at low hp which also gives lifesteal, ad, and spellvamp after the bubble activated ontop of having decent base AD and a good chunk of MR isn't balanced.

A step in the right direction would be to make the bubble no longer auto activate but make it to where the player has to turn it on, similar to Seraph's embrace.

KetiNov 24, 20162 votes

These items are strong?

ErdamonNov 24, 20162 votes

They literally reward you for sucking at the game

KetiNov 25, 20162 votes

thank you for the expert analysis mr. rumble main

ErdamonNov 25, 20164 votes

You wanna in-depth analysis, you gonna get one

As much as Phantom Dancer's damage reduction kinda gives it some unique niche and does require careful target selection to make use of it to the fullest, the fact that the only condition for you to start running around like Sonic the fucking Hedgehog is for an enemy champion to be kinda close to you is retarded, this makes it so unless you have some big-ass range on your skills or have shitton of mobillity you ain't never gonna get that Yasuo, game simply punishes you for picking a short ranged and or melee/immobile champion and trying to get to get to that already annoying fucker.

Maw is simply "you can't ever kill me"-item, on top of it's all really good both offensive and defensive stats, and the shield that kicks in after you manage to fail dodge possible an entire rotation of spells, game says "great job champ! have some of that big ass shield that will prevent your death from that pesky fuck who thought that mages can have fun!", and don't forget, ad champs usually have both sustained damage and burst due to the fact that AD also increases the damage on your AAs, and not just abilities like AP does, so it gives further edge in fights (and don't forget about the possibly infinite lifesteal/spellvamp ON TOP of the shield)

KetiNov 25, 20162 votes

The only way maw rewards you for getting hit is by granting some lifesteal. Saying the shield itself is a reward is like saying any defensive stats reward you for getting hit because they both prevent you from dying. Currently mages are already strong enough with the removal of the Mr aura from aegis. I don't think I'm so eager to see mages played in all 3 lanes lol.

ErdamonNov 26, 20161 votes

There's a pretty big difference between straight defense and "fuck you and your damage, let my overkill shield on top of overkill healing with overkill combat stats make sure you never pick an ap champ again, I'm maw of malmortious, look at me go!"

AirKingNeoNov 25, 20161 votes

PD doesn't reward you for sucking. You just hit the guy who deals the most and they don't hurt you as fast. Still broken item.

ErdamonNov 26, 20161 votes

I'm talking about the other passive, you know, free ghost that kicks in every time you get caught out of position

RiviniNov 25, 20162 votes

{quoted}

You forgot item 3812

AirKingNeoNov 25, 20161 votes

Death's Dance isn't a good item. It's built on 2 champions, one of them is Aatrox.

RiviniNov 25, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Death's Dance isn't a good item. It's built on 2 champions, one of them is Aatrox.

Either OP or "not bad" (meaning it's impractical but still works) on the following:

Illaoi Darius Garen Graves Irelia Jayce Jhin Kalista Khazix Kled LeeSin Lucian MissFortune Pantheon Renekton Rengar Riven Talon Urgot Varus MonkeyKing Zed

DoseqisNov 25, 20162 votes

Idk why you are getting downvoted, a item that was built on every single mage in the game was pretty annoying and them being a phudo tank late game with all their defensive items was pretty dumb.

AirKingNeoNov 25, 20161 votes

Kayle but with item 3116 item 3046

DoseqisNov 25, 20161 votes

Boards in a nutshell, "Rylais is supposed to be niche not an every game item"

Riot makes it niche "I can't build it every game now WTF"

HazyCloud7Nov 24, 20168 votes

Great post my friend. Hope meddler sees this.

The item is just inconceivably worse in every possibile way, it's garbage tier. I don't even care if they leave the slow at 20%, but just give me back the 400 health at least. This item is so awful now I'm not sure if anybody should be buying it.

I thought they were going to balance it for Morde & Singed and nerf the AP + buff the health. Not gut the item.

MordepoolNov 25, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Great post my friend. Hope meddler sees this.

The item is just inconceivably worse in every possibile way, it's garbage tier. I don't even care if they leave the slow at 20%, but just give me back the 400 health at least. This item is so awful now I'm not sure if anybody should be buying it.

I thought they were going to balance it for Morde & Singed and nerf the AP + buff the health. Not gut the item.

Asking riot to consider Morde in the changes is unrealistic based off past experience they are all to willing to fuck over my main to balance shit around abusers

ElikainNov 25, 20161 votes

The reason why HP was reduced was because that was also the problem. HP is a universal stat and mages profited more than buying a RoA. Instant HP and a slow for abilities as you've already saw, was every mage's mandatory purchase.

I thought they were going to balance it for Morde & Singed and nerf the AP + buff the health.

LOL Who told you that it's going to become an Tank AP's item? AP Tanks are a small subgroup of AP champions so making an item strictly for them pushes the item of mages' hands entirely. If HP stayed the same, the item would have had to take an even more severe hit in AP, leaving it mostly as a block of HP that adds slow to spells. Not even then it would've been a decent purchase.

HazyCloud7Nov 25, 20161 votes

Go mage circle jerk somewhere else. Thanks.

ElikainNov 25, 20161 votes

Considering that Rylai's was intended as a mage item, i'm not circle jerking for them. You're circle jerking for 2 AP tanks that use it, wanting to grant them full custody because they "can't" exist without it.

I thought they were going to balance it for Morde & Singed and nerf the AP + buff the health.

I'm again going to LOL on this one. Making Rylai's exclusive to 2 AP tanks that use it and ripping it completely out of the hands of mages fixes nothing. You're sweeping the problem under the rug. Mages are at the loss here as they lose one item worth considerable amount of AP. That's practically deletion, for the sake of only 2 champions.

The point is not to delete it, the point is to nerf it as it is already a mandatory purchase for every mage and that's because of how much kiting it enables you to squash and how harder it makes you to get killed in the process, on top of giving a good power spike. That's a trifecta. Something's gotta give.

HazyCloud7Nov 25, 20161 votes

Ok, now I think we have a misunderstanding here. I main Viktor. i WANT it to be a viable item on mages. I do not play tanky AP champions like Singed/Morde at all. I thought they were going to balance it for Morde/Singed because riot ruled out the high AP mana/cdr option as a result of community backlash. And what were the most vocal/upvoted posts during the time after they announced they'd be working on Rylai's? People in favor if the item being tailored for Morde/Singed/Rumble/Vlad. High HP low AP. Like a 1000 mordekaiser threads got upvoted to the front page and Meddler responded in several of them.

That is why I expected them to go in that direction. Instead they made the item worse for mages, worse for tanky AP champions, and better for Brand/Zyra support.

Critmaster GarenNov 24, 20163 votes

its not. they still didnt reduce the slow on multi hit abilities and minions...

i hope theyre going to phase out and delete the item. there are like 3 or 4 champions in this game who actually rely on it. the rest is just abusing it like blue ezreal used to abuse release gauntlet.

AhristocatsNov 24, 201613 votes

are u stupid or?

slow reduced to 20% 1 seconds for everything used to be 15% or 20% 2 seconds before its buff, but before the buff the cost efficiency wasn't trash

Critmaster GarenNov 24, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=playfive Koopska,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EOqK2cEu,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2016-11-24T15:22:31.164+0000)

are u stupid or?

slow reduced to 20% 1 seconds for everything used to be 15% or 20% 2 seconds before its buff, but before the buff the cost efficiency wasn't trash

just look up the fucking item.

it was 20% for multi hit abilities and minions before the nerf. which means the permaslows are just as bad as before.

AhristocatsNov 24, 20167 votes

what about the stats?

ErockandrollNov 24, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=playfive Koopska,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EOqK2cEu,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2016-11-24T16:07:28.069+0000)

what about the stats?

You don't buy it for the stats, you buy it for the slow.

Riot is pretty much using the same Balancing philosophy that they used with Hour glass. Were going to remove slot efficiency, so that the item doesn't become completely core, except by the champs that completely synergize with that utility. So they give lower stats and a lower cost. (Note that Crystal scepters cost, is cheaper than pre rework as well.) And one of the key benefits of doing so is, anyone who does synergize with that utility, can now purchase that utility sooner. And the reduced price makes it a possibility for some support champs as well.

AhristocatsNov 24, 20165 votes

i can't get what is wrong with you

why the fuck should i buy a useless late game slot for 20% slow on 1 second? that sounds like a dota2 item, giving no stats and a strong passive, except that it doesn't work in league where the other items are broken stat wise.

KoKobotoNov 25, 20161 votes

It also nerfs the item 3151 + item 3116 combo, liandries was already an insanely niche item buy, now that Rylai's is nerfed I imagine the buy rate will drop even more

ElikainNov 25, 20161 votes

The only champions buying this combination are Brand and Zyra. Their damage output from these items is going to drop if they aren't consistently applying damage to enemies, which means that a poke or two aren't going to send people with a lot of HP packing to base.

I'm avoiding Singed because some people don't even buy it.

KoKobotoNov 25, 20161 votes

Yeah, insanely niche, the buy rate will drop a lot

ElikainNov 25, 20161 votes

This item combination does show promise but what also does is dealing a lot of AP powered damage with a Void Staff. I don't really know who buys Liandry's with Rylai's outside these 3 champions. Teemo may also include it into his build but not opt into Rylai's as his shrooms also slow anyway.

So this combination might be easier to sustain if Liandry's wasn't so expensive. Mages usually tend to skip DoT damage.

ElikainNov 25, 20161 votes

that sounds like a dota2 item

Are you aware that in League, the longest stun possible is by Ashe's Crystal Arrow, maximum of 3.5 seconds? In DotA, there are a lot more abilities that easily break this cap and even penetrate states of immunity.

why the fuck should i buy a useless late game slot for 20% slow on 1 second?

Emphasis on the useless here, because this statement is ridiculous. Champions that aren't designed to have slows in their kit, suddenly have it and that's OK? 40% was a tad too much, don't you agree? Especially when Rylai's came from "no one's item" to "every mage's item" in just a patch. And it wasn't the slow that was the only problem, it was the HP and AP that it brought along with it, as HP is a universal stat that makes a target harder to kill.

Mages can usually purchase HP but in their items, it always takes time to ramp up. Rylai's is just a stick of HP, with super stats and a passive attached to it. And when every mage suddenly starts buying it, you know you have a problem. Refer to Frost Queen's Claim problem, when it was too good to be true and every mid laner bought it, profiting more than supports could have.

GayFluffyUnicornNov 25, 20162 votes

It's no use. They don't understand that 100 AP, HP and a gigantic slow is way too much for mages when there is also Roa or GLP. Just imagine IE giving it's passive, 70 AD and 500 health or something.

ElikainNov 25, 20161 votes

I'm all for big AP items for mages but i don't want the big AP to come with big additional stats that make the item broken. Mages are supposed to be the squishy targets, not the other way around. I am also not against their HP purchases but their purchases come with a price of having to wait for the item to stack up.

Having flat stats become overpowering that it puts stacking stats to shame is just a big problem that invalidates a class's weakness as a whole. Which is one of the reasons many mages bought it.

ArcticahhNov 24, 201612 votes

That is such a bullshit statement to say no one buys it for the stats. Just see hourglass before and after the item "re-balance" (nerf). It was a core item for everyone, now you ONLY buy it if you are laning vs AD assassin, or if you play kennen or such for who it is core.

Viktorious SayphNov 24, 20166 votes

I don't even buy it LOL its such a "nerf yourself item" XD i need other stuff to buy because 120 second cooldown? SERIOUSLY? I would rather build item 3053 item 3143 item 3110 because they give better protection against AD.

item 3155 90 secs. Hueheuheuhe

Edit: oh forgot that it gives ad + mr + only for 1300 gold ^^

AcidTheWarlockNov 24, 20164 votes

item 3191 gives armor and AP for only 1200 gold

Viktorious SayphNov 24, 20167 votes

Doesn't give shield to protect you tho.

DengedenNov 24, 20161 votes

Do you have any idea what a boon it is to make it that much cheaper?

I mean, do you even know why Lucian went and built BC and got nerfed for it?

Meddler nerfed the AP because the non-abuse cases don't care about it. He nerfed the health because anyone can abuse early defenses, not just champions you like. It's better to reduce the price, give you access to a major item passive, which is something your opponent with an equal amount of gold will not have as a non-tank, and then allow you to buy Ar/HP/MR (depending on circumstance) once you've accumulated the gold which you'd have used to make the old Rylai's.

Oh and the slow is basically irrelevant, isn't it? It should be used solely to outrun your opponent, right? Not to lock them in one place or make their mobility and/or CC irrelevant.

AhristocatsNov 24, 20167 votes

all of that could have been fixed by reverting Rylai, so it isn't shit

DengedenNov 24, 20161 votes

Well, only it'd be worse if you reverted it. And Rumble needs the nerf to his bullying anyhows. And mages would build it regardless because what's 20 AP if you get 200 gold in exchange?

And the old Rylai's still had ways to lock you down with slow stacking. Which isn't the item's intention.