Does Riot not know that Ardent Censer (healing boost) isn't a unique passive?

Jesus is Savior·Jul 2, 2016·6 votes·2,187 views

Balanced.

Seriously why is this not hotfixed? Do they really not know?

( too)

Why do they stack with... Themselves?

http://i.imgur.com/q6IF47i.png[/img]

62 Comments

Deep Terror NamiJul 2, 201613 votes

{quoted}

They're stackable. That's deliberately the case, though also something we'll change should it prove overwhelming.

Jesus is SaviorJul 2, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=Deep Terror Nami,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EJOp5rli,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-07-02T14:25:42.083+0000)

Yes, but it's not just item 3504 item 3222 item 3114 that are stackable (for a total of 40%)

They are stackable WITH THEMSELVES.

You can literally build six item 3504 for 90% healing increase. That's a 100% increase with windspeakers, meaning you're healing 2x what you normally would (EVEN MORE if they have a spirit visage)

Deep Terror NamiJul 2, 20169 votes

They know.

Jesus is SaviorJul 2, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=Deep Terror Nami,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EJOp5rli,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2016-07-02T14:39:03.063+0000)

They know.

So 1200 hp Janna shields for 15.8k gold is balanced?

Deep Terror NamiJul 2, 20169 votes

Meddler didn't say whether the situation was ok or not.

Jesus is SaviorJul 2, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=Deep Terror Nami,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EJOp5rli,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-07-02T14:46:11.622+0000)

Meddler didn't say whether the situation was ok or not.

Pretty sure it was intended to be "unique" to each item, but not a "named passive."

I mean, I can't even stack fucking zeals anymore. Why the fuck would this be okay?

Deep Terror NamiJul 2, 20166 votes

They could just make the AP on Censer unique; you can stack %healing all day but if you have no AP it'll amount to shit.

Jesus is SaviorJul 2, 20166 votes

[{quoted}](name=Deep Terror Nami,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EJOp5rli,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-07-02T14:57:28.604+0000)

They could just make the AP on Censer unique; you can stack %healing all day but if you have no AP it'll amount to shit.

There is not a single item in the game with unique AP.

That doesn't fit the design of the game at all.

Also of note: the healing/shielding actually IS unique on item 3114

Which makes your idea even more dumb.

Deep Terror NamiJul 2, 20166 votes

There is not a single item in the game with unique AP.

So what? If something new is needed to create balance then that's what needs to happen. Why wouldn't they?

Also of note: the healing/shielding actually IS unique on

Which makes your idea even more dumb.

I don't see what that has to do with anything. They intended for Mikael's and Censer to stack which is why it is not unique on them. Why are you being rude now?

Jesus is SaviorJul 2, 20163 votes

[deleted]

Deep Terror NamiJul 2, 20168 votes

The % heal/shield is probably unique on Idol because it costs only 850g. If it is that strong people would grab a Rabadons or w/e then fill their slots with Idols ASAP then upgrade them later. They kind of had to make it unique only for that.

Bears Dont CareJul 3, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Deep Terror Nami,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EJOp5rli,comment-id=000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-07-02T15:16:18.158+0000)

So what? If something new is needed to create balance then that's what needs to happen. Why wouldn't they?

It's not a feasible thing to code obviously.

Deep Terror NamiJul 3, 20161 votes

You're just guessing...

Bears Dont CareJul 3, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Deep Terror Nami,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EJOp5rli,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2016-07-03T00:03:34.802+0000)

You're just guessing...

Not a guess it's a fact. A is is a universal stat. Trying to make an item with unique approach is not possible unless you create a new unique stat. It's demanding much more than needed.

MiraweaveJul 3, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=That Evelynn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EJOp5rli,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-07-02T15:05:43.285+0000)

There is not a single item in the game with unique AP.

That doesn't fit the design of the game at all.

Also of note: the healing/shielding actually IS unique on

Which makes your idea even more dumb.

It actually literally doesn't matter which of the two they make unique, either one is enough to make stacking the item inefficient enough to not be worth doing.

Best KhaZix VoidJul 2, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=Deep Terror Nami,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EJOp5rli,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-07-02T14:57:28.604+0000)

They could just make the AP on Censer unique; you can stack %healing all day but if you have no AP it'll amount to shit.

that's a TERRIBLE idea.

Deep Terror NamiJul 2, 20164 votes

It's certainly infinitely better than not doing anything, so I don't know how it's 'terrible'. Is it enough? Probably not. This was supposed to be a discussion with back-and-forth debate, not just personal attacks once there is disagreement. My suggestion is not saying "this will fix it!", it is saying "how much will this help?".

Best KhaZix VoidJul 2, 20165 votes

[{quoted}](name=Deep Terror Nami,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EJOp5rli,comment-id=000000000000000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2016-07-02T17:04:05.188+0000)

It's certainly better than not doing anything, so I don't know how it's 'terrible'. Is it enough? Probably not.

it's certainly worse than just making the passive unique.

MiraweaveJul 3, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Best KhaZix Void,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EJOp5rli,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2016-07-02T17:04:42.054+0000)

it's certainly worse than just making the passive unique.

Actually, there's basically no balance difference between the effect of making the passive unique and the effect of making the AP unique. Either way, stacking them becomes inefficient. I mean obviously the two result in different effects from buying multiple of the item, but if both of those effects are bad it literally doesn't matter which one you do because they'd both be worse than other builds.

ModIts Yuu and MiJul 3, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Deep Terror Nami,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EJOp5rli,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-07-02T14:57:28.604+0000)

They could just make the AP on Censer unique; you can stack %healing all day but if you have no AP it'll amount to shit.

Or we could just make, you know, the broken part not stack.

{quoted}

I can't really think of any scenario where making 5 ardents and a deathcap is viable as a support >_>

Meanwhile a GD'er who's been consistently Diamond-Master doing this shit

http://puu.sh/pOmQE/a9d4134236.jpg

MiraweaveJul 3, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mounting Dread,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EJOp5rli,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000000002,timestamp=2016-07-03T02:37:43.920+0000)

Or we could just make, you know, the broken part not stack.

It literally doesn't matter which part you make unique, since if you make either part unique you're still making stacked censers worse than an average build. It effects how the numbers on your garbage build work, but it doesn't change the fact that the build is bad.

It's not the %healing that makes censer stacking powerful, it's that each one effectively increases the power of all the other ones you have by adding 15% to the power you gain from the 60 AP. An item that's just 2400 gold for movespeed, cdr, and a 15% heal increase would be absolute garbage.

Meanwhile a GD'er who's been consistently Diamond-Master doing this shit

http://puu.sh/pOmQE/a9d4134236.jpg

Individual players do a lot of things that aren't optimal at almost all levels. The fact that stacking ardent censers is only slightly better than stacking AP from a numbers perspective is probably a sign that it's not much better than other builds.

I'm not saying it's necessarily balanced, I'm saying that the numbers are in line with other similarly costed builds and that riot's stance of waiting to see what happens is almost certainly correct.

HannahOfPiltoverJul 2, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=That Evelynn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EJOp5rli,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2016-07-02T14:40:10.601+0000)

So 1200 hp Janna shields for 15.8k gold is balanced?

I can't really think of any scenario where making 5 ardents and a deathcap is viable as a support >_>

Busty KunoichiJul 2, 20164 votes

{quoted}

I can't really think of any scenario where making 5 ardents and a deathcap is viable as a support >_>

Sona Soraka

Both would be more than able to pull it off with 4 Ardents, Deathcap + Sightstone.

QuephaJul 2, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=That Evelynn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EJOp5rli,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2016-07-02T14:40:10.601+0000)

So 1200 hp Janna shields for 15.8k gold is balanced?

They clearly said that if it turned out to not be balanced they would nerf it.

Best KhaZix VoidJul 2, 20162 votes

{quoted}

They clearly said that if it turned out to not be balanced they would nerf it.

they clearly should've realized this shit was going to be cancer the moment they had the idea.

it's like they only had half a thought before they just stopped thinking about it and slapped it onto the patch.

QuephaJul 2, 20165 votes

[{quoted}](name=Best KhaZix Void,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EJOp5rli,comment-id=000000000000000000020000,timestamp=2016-07-02T17:04:14.719+0000)

they clearly should've realized this shit was going to be cancer the moment they had the idea.

it's like they only had half a thought before they just stopped thinking about it and slapped it onto the patch.

But it's not actually cancer. You are being hyperbolic for no reason.

SogrethJul 2, 20165 votes

Just need to make it Unique with itself.

So you can still stack an Ardent and a Crucible, but not multiple Ardents, and vise versa

Mysticman89Jul 2, 20164 votes

I've yet to actually encounter that build in practice, and don't particularly fear it. They're giving up a lot of utility from other items building like that, are immobile, and have no defences, and when you're <6 items the heals/shields aren't going to be that intense, meaning plenty of opportunity for enemies to snowball off of you.

It strikes me as one of various theory 6 item builds that are probably fun/'op' if you get there (of which there are many), but if you tried to put it into practice you'd be frustrated that you could get there without being way behind.

edit: I do plan to try this sort of thing next time I get an appropriate champion in aram though.

Best KhaZix VoidJul 2, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I've yet to actually encounter that build in practice, and don't particularly fear it. They're giving up a lot of utility from other items building like that, are immobile, and have no defences, and when you're <6 items the heals/shields aren't going to be that intense, meaning plenty of opportunity for enemies to snowball off of you.

It strikes me as one of various theory 6 item builds that are probably fun/'op' if you get there (of which there are many), but if you tried to put it into practice you'd be frustrated that you could get there without being way behind.

"i've never ran into the ability to increase healing by 89% so therefore it's not a problem" yeah, fuck off. I'm not letting these champs go through champ select on the off chance they don't know how hideously broken they are on hilariously cheap items.

too bad there's too many brainless supports that abuse them you couldn't possibly ban them all even if you convinced your team that they are in fact broken pieces of shit.

Mysticman89Jul 2, 20163 votes

You say that as if there aren't trade offs to it. Sure, big heals/shields are strong, but so are the multitude of other effects items provide.

I just tried it as raka in aram (where you might think it'd be particularly strong since healers are in general strong there, plus theres no sightstone tradeoff), and it was pretty lackluster. Lack of health/health regen makes you very squishy and limits the amount you can actually spam the heals (keep in mind censer doesn't boost the healing from rejuvenation), and the lack of mobility means pretty much anyone can walk up to you and murder you.

You might also think if it was actually broken levels of effectiveness people would be using it, particularly in the highest elos where people know what they're doing and can adopt whatever champion/build happens to be most effective. And yet looking at probuilds for all the champions with heals/shields off the top of my head, I don't see any that have even built 2 censers, much less 5.

Leaf of the lakeJul 2, 20161 votes

{quoted}

You say that as if there aren't trade offs to it. Sure, big heals/shields are strong, but so are the multitude of other effects items provide.

I just tried it as raka in aram (where you might think it'd be particularly strong since healers are in general strong there, plus theres no sightstone tradeoff), and it was pretty lackluster. Lack of health/health regen makes you very squishy and limits the amount you can actually spam the heals (keep in mind censer doesn't boost the healing from rejuvenation), and the lack of mobility means pretty much anyone can walk up to you and murder you.

You might also think if it was actually broken levels of effectiveness people would be using it, particularly in the highest elos where people know what they're doing and can adopt whatever champion/build happens to be most effective. And yet looking at probuilds for all the champions with heals/shields off the top of my head, I don't see any that have even built 2 censers, much less 5.

It sometimes takes time for pros to realize something is OP. Common sense in league is "you don't stack an item." Yet, there have been times in league's history where stacking an item 5 times was optimal (league of cleavers, anyone?). I don't think 5 censer will ever be optimal, and maybe not even 4, but I could certainly see 2-3 censer being used on a lot of champs.

As for raka, it makes sense that raka couldn't just run full censers, since she has to cast from health, so she needs some way to restore her own health (probably warmogs regen). Anyone that has a heal that casts purely from mana, however, gets an infinite supply of mana from the censers, plus the 40% (or 45%) CDR needed to spam it.

Mysticman89Jul 2, 20161 votes

Yeah, it's possible a couple might be optimal and I think that's actually ok, as the heals/shields are within the realm of reason still.

I can understand that people are wary of this being a potential problem, but I don't see any reason for people to fearmonger and panic clamor for hotfixes/nerfs until it actually is a problem. Riot has said they're keeping an eye on it for when/if it is a problem, but so far it doesn't seem to be.

I'll probably play around with it on a few other healer champs if I get the opportunity, but no one actually jumps out to me as a major problem if they go full censers, as those champs are also squishy enough to be punished for it.

Athenes LuluJul 3, 20161 votes

Thank you for pointing this out.

People have long forgotten that they are actually just as fragile as your typical midlane mages whenever they don't build anything defensive, and that can be just as easily deleted off the moment they touch an AoE spell or two.

So in the end it's very impractical unless their teammates are either so fed that there's no point in getting anything defensive, or they are almost out of danger range completely, which is pretty uncommon. Choosing to stack healing effects is like choosing to build tons of AP over utility and/or defensive options.

Conceptually, it's not at all bad, but it might be the numbers that needs to be tuned properly.

Friendly RamJul 2, 20162 votes

because they only stack additively really fun for shields to be gigantic.

Jesus is SaviorJul 2, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Happy Honker,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EJOp5rli,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-07-02T14:31:31.574+0000)

because they only stack additively really fun for shields to be gigantic.

yes dem 1200 hp Janna shields are rly fun.

In a dragged out game that could literally happen too. 5 ardent censors + 1 deathcap only costs 15.8k

Friendly RamJul 2, 20161 votes

nah AC+mikhael+windspeaker= loads of fun.

Jesus is SaviorJul 2, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Happy Honker,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EJOp5rli,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2016-07-02T15:11:01.609+0000)

nah AC+mikhael+windspeaker= loads of fun.

You can stack 5 ardent censers + 1 deathcap and it's actually a viable build.

That shouldn't be allowed.

Pierce The VealJul 2, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=That Evelynn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EJOp5rli,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2016-07-02T15:12:10.059+0000)

You can stack 5 ardent censers + 1 deathcap and it's actually a viable build.

That shouldn't be allowed.

If you look at it that way there are champions that can get away with seraphs, 4 archangels, and a rab cap.

Jesus is SaviorJul 2, 20161 votes

{quoted}

If you look at it that way there are champions that can get away with seraphs, 4 archangels, and a rab cap.

Which:

Costs significantly more (19.3k gold compared to 15.8k)
Would probably take an hour and a half to stack
No magic pen means you would do no damage anyway (or if you're talking about the shielding aspect: see points 1 and 2)

Pierce The VealJul 3, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=That Evelynn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EJOp5rli,comment-id=000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-07-02T15:33:49.500+0000)

Which:

Costs significantly more (19.3k gold compared to 15.8k)

Would probably take an hour and a half to stack

No magic pen means you would do no damage anyway (or if you're talking about the shielding aspect: see points 1 and 2)

I'm not talking in respect to support: I'm using this midlaner build as an analogy to that support build, plus 15.8k is a LOT for a support.
you can only stack one tear anyway, from there each archangels only gives a ton of ap and 250 mana, it used to be even better before the changes to tear, giving a ton of mana regen as well.
replace an archangels with void staff no problemo

Jesus is SaviorJul 3, 20162 votes

{quoted}

I'm not talking in respect to support: I'm using this midlaner build as an analogy to that support build, plus 15.8k is a LOT for a support.

you can only stack one tear anyway, from there each archangels only gives a ton of ap and 250 mana, it used to be even better before the changes to tear, giving a ton of mana regen as well.

replace an archangels with void staff no problemo

Silver at its finest.

You can stack multiple tears. Just not at the same time.

Pierce The VealJul 3, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=That Evelynn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EJOp5rli,comment-id=00010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-07-03T11:03:50.016+0000)

Silver at its finest.

You can stack multiple tears. Just not at the same time.

The passive is unique. You can stack seraph's once, and then an archangels without upgrade once more. After that, no, you can't stack more tears, learn how the game fucking works. Goes to show mechanical skill doesn't translate into knowdledge.

Ah wait, upon checking the wiki, I realized the bonus AP passive was made unique, disregard everything I've said about stacking the archangels. What a bummer.

I love how you have to add a jab at rank. Hope knowing that other people don't play a game as much as you do lets you sleep well at night.

SincarnationJul 3, 20162 votes

Wah wah supports can actually have impactful healing now babyrage

item 3165 item 3033 item 3123 summoner 14 Oh wait, no they cant

ForgiveColourJul 3, 20165 votes

you have to be retarded if you think sustain supports are weak before this

SincarnationJul 3, 20161 votes

{quoted}

you have to be retarded if you think sustain supports are weak before this

You'd have to be an idiot to conflate Soraka with all supports that provide sustain Soraka had impactful healing its her thing Bard, Nami, and Sona had pitiful tacked on healing that was useful in lane when maxed first but was useles if it wasn't because it fell off hard mid-late game Taric's heal is the same as the above but hasnt changed much because I dont think people are building Censer on him Alistar's Heal was nerfed pretty hard but same as Taric

Is the combo too strong on Raka? Probably Does the combo allow non-raka healers to have impactful healing late game? Yes

Sustain supports were alright in lane, but their heals became far far less relevant as the game progressed. There is more to the game than just laning phase

Leaf of the lakeJul 3, 20161 votes

So, I just ran the numbers, and this is... rather amusing. A soraka with eye of the watchers and 4 censers has 265 AP + 70% heal increase (windspeakers). Her W heals 610 damage with this setup. To reach an equivalent heal with AP alone (and windspeakers), she would need 591 AP. For reference, a deathcap + 5 needlessly large rods only gives 567 AP for about 10k gold, which is about the same cost as the 4 censers.

MiraweaveJul 3, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Leaf of the lake,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EJOp5rli,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2016-07-03T00:39:41.551+0000)

So, I just ran the numbers, and this is... rather amusing. A soraka with eye of the watchers and 4 censers has 265 AP + 70% heal increase (windspeakers). Her W heals 610 damage with this setup. To reach an equivalent heal with AP alone (and windspeakers), she would need 591 AP. For reference, a deathcap + 5 needlessly large rods only gives 567 AP for about 10k gold, which is about the same cost as the 4 censers.

All that means is that it's about as efficient as going straight AP for the same cost, but nets you less damage on your damaging abilities.

Seems like the AP build would be strictly better there.

Leaf of the lakeJul 3, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Archangel Avacyn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EJOp5rli,comment-id=00070001,timestamp=2016-07-03T06:02:41.117+0000)

All that means is that it's about as efficient as going straight AP for the same cost, but nets you less damage on your damaging abilities.

Seems like the AP build would be strictly better there.

Not quite. The AP build offers no other stats; with no CDR, you can only heal ~70% as often, resulting in substantially less healing done overall, and less utility from the rest of your kit due to higher CDs. It also takes up an additional item slot. The important thing to realize with censer is you're still getting AP from it, just not as much.

MiraweaveJul 3, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Leaf of the lake,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EJOp5rli,comment-id=000700010000,timestamp=2016-07-03T06:21:23.112+0000)

Not quite. The AP build offers no other stats; with no CDR, you can only heal ~70% as often, resulting in substantially less healing done overall, and less utility from the rest of your kit due to higher CDs. It also takes up an additional item slot. The important thing to realize with censer is you're still getting AP from it, just not as much.

You can max CDR in an AP build and lose very little, especially if you take CDR runes. Any build involving item 3158 and item 3165 will probably result in maxed CDR.