Vayne problem is not damage but insane self peel kit

PiVoRx·Sep 4, 2015·110 votes·5,875 views

Knockback, stun and invisibility. Not too much for adc that shits with true damage? You cant send anybody to get rid of her cause she will dissapear and pin you to wall.

148 Comments

Learning momentSep 4, 20157 votes

stop over glorifying her kit, she has a knock back with a 20 second cool down with a chance to stun for like 1 second, she has an ULT that when she Q's she can be invisible for 1 second. That can easily be changed with an upgraded trinket which costs 250 gold. vayne is in like 6th place in the adc list so stop crying. oh and you said "you cant send anyone to kill her because she will just pin you to a wall"....thats retarded shes a dueler adc why would you send 1 person to kill a dueler? and why would the person be stupid enough to stand close enough to the wall to get stunned in the first place?

SlaktarTaskenSep 5, 20158 votes

[{quoted}](name=Learning moment,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EFQuYEe2,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-09-04T23:56:35.205+0000)

stop over glorifying her kit, she has a knock back with a 20 second cool down with a chance to stun for like 1 second, she has an ULT that when she Q's she can be invisible for 1 second. That can easily be changed with an upgraded trinket which costs 250 gold. vayne is in like 6th place in the adc list so stop crying. oh and you said "you cant send anyone to kill her because she will just pin you to a wall"....thats retarded shes a dueler adc why would you send 1 person to kill a dueler? and why would the person be stupid enough to stand close enough to the wall to get stunned in the first place?

Overglorifying?

Abilities Night Hunter RANGE: 2000 Night Hunter Vayne gains 30 movement speed when moving towards a nearby visible enemy champion. Final Hour.png FINAL HOUR: Night Hunter's bonus movement speed is tripled to 90. [show] Ability Details

Tumble RANGE: 300 COST: 30 MANA COOLDOWN: 6 / 5 / 4 / 3 / 2 Tumble ACTIVE: Vayne quickly rolls toward the cursor's location, causing her next basic attack within 6 seconds to deal bonus physical damage. BONUS PHYSICAL DAMAGE: 30 / 35 / 40 / 45 / 50% AD Tumble resets Vayne's autoattack timer. Final Hour.png FINAL HOUR: Tumble stealths Vayne for 1 second on cast. [show] Ability Details

Silver Bolts Silver Bolts PASSIVE: Vayne's basic attacks and abilities mark her target with Silver Bolts for 3 seconds, stacking up to 3 times. The third stack consumes all Silver Bolts on the target to deal them true damage. TRUE DAMAGE: 20 / 30 / 40 / 50 / 60 (+ 4 / 5 / 6 / 7 / 8% of target's maximum health) The percent health component is capped at 200 against monsters, and attacking a new enemy cleanses the previous target of all Silver Bolts. [show] Ability Details

Condemn RANGE: 550 / 470 COST: 90 MANA COOLDOWN: 20 / 18 / 16 / 14 / 12 Condemn ACTIVE: Vayne fires a heavy bolt at the target unit, dealing physical damage, Airborne icon knocking them back and applying Silver Bolts.png Silver Bolts. 「 PHYSICAL DAMAGE: 45 / 80 / 115 / 150 / 185 (+ 50% bonus AD) 」 If the target is knocked into a wall, they takes the same damage again and are Stun icon stunned for 1.5 seconds. [show] Ability Details

Final Hour COST: 80 MANA COOLDOWN: 100 / 85 / 70 Final Hour ACTIVE: Vayne temporarily gains bonus attack damage, empowering Night Hunter.png Night Hunter and Tumble.png Tumble for the duration. DURATION: 8 / 10 / 12 BONUS AD: 30 / 50 / 70 AD

First of all, you say her stun only lasts one second, that's incorrect, it lasts 1,5 seconds and despite that, even it was just 1second, that's an eternity when facing a champ that can decimate you in less time than it takes you to take a beath.

Tumble is almost as spammable as Kalistas passive when maxed out.

Her Tumble, doesn't only give massive mobility, it essentially boosts her next attack by as much as a maxed out lucian passive.

And just look at final hour, 12 freaking seconds when maxed out, that's more or less an eternity in a TF scenario.

Just face it, this champs is packed with as much utility as damage, she is overloaded, especially in terms of numbers, she has all the tools to chase anyone down and destroy them, and all the tools needed to escape anyone. She is more or less the pre nerf Lee Sin of adc's.

Also, just scepter alone gives her a huge spike in power as it removes her only weakness, which is being able to sustain herself. Bork active has exacly her attack range, so it synergizes with her extremely well. It's unfair that she can freely gain that sustain early and profit so much from it while other adc's are pidgeonholed into either getting IE or Trinity, which have fairly weak spikes in comparision until the items are completed.

That being said.

She doesn't need a massive nerf but she definately needs some toning down.

Learning momentSep 5, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Overglorifying?

Abilities Night Hunter RANGE: 2000 Night Hunter Vayne gains 30 movement speed when moving towards a nearby visible enemy champion. Final Hour.png FINAL HOUR: Night Hunter's bonus movement speed is tripled to 90. [show] Ability Details

Tumble RANGE: 300 COST: 30 MANA COOLDOWN: 6 / 5 / 4 / 3 / 2 Tumble ACTIVE: Vayne quickly rolls toward the cursor's location, causing her next basic attack within 6 seconds to deal bonus physical damage. BONUS PHYSICAL DAMAGE: 30 / 35 / 40 / 45 / 50% AD Tumble resets Vayne's autoattack timer. Final Hour.png FINAL HOUR: Tumble stealths Vayne for 1 second on cast. [show] Ability Details

Silver Bolts Silver Bolts PASSIVE: Vayne's basic attacks and abilities mark her target with Silver Bolts for 3 seconds, stacking up to 3 times. The third stack consumes all Silver Bolts on the target to deal them true damage. TRUE DAMAGE: 20 / 30 / 40 / 50 / 60 (+ 4 / 5 / 6 / 7 / 8% of target's maximum health) The percent health component is capped at 200 against monsters, and attacking a new enemy cleanses the previous target of all Silver Bolts. [show] Ability Details

Condemn RANGE: 550 / 470 COST: 90 MANA COOLDOWN: 20 / 18 / 16 / 14 / 12 Condemn ACTIVE: Vayne fires a heavy bolt at the target unit, dealing physical damage, Airborne icon knocking them back and applying Silver Bolts.png Silver Bolts. 「 PHYSICAL DAMAGE: 45 / 80 / 115 / 150 / 185 (+ 50% bonus AD) 」 If the target is knocked into a wall, they takes the same damage again and are Stun icon stunned for 1.5 seconds. [show] Ability Details

Final Hour COST: 80 MANA COOLDOWN: 100 / 85 / 70 Final Hour ACTIVE: Vayne temporarily gains bonus attack damage, empowering Night Hunter.png Night Hunter and Tumble.png Tumble for the duration. DURATION: 8 / 10 / 12 BONUS AD: 30 / 50 / 70 AD

First of all, you say her stun only lasts one second, that's incorrect, it lasts 1,5 seconds and despite that, even it was just 1second, that's an eternity when facing a champ that can decimate you in less time than it takes you to take a beath.

Tumble is almost as spammable as Kalistas passive when maxed out.

Her Tumble, doesn't only give massive mobility, it essentially boosts her next attack by as much as a maxed out lucian passive.

And just look at final hour, 12 freaking seconds when maxed out, that's more or less an eternity in a TF scenario.

Just face it, this champs is packed with as much utility as damage, she is overloaded, especially in terms of numbers, she has all the tools to chase anyone down and destroy them, and all the tools needed to escape anyone. She is more or less the pre nerf Lee Sin of adc's.

Also, just scepter alone gives her a huge spike in power as it removes her only weakness, which is being able to sustain herself. Bork active has exacly her attack range, so it synergizes with her extremely well. It's unfair that she can freely gain that sustain early and profit so much from it while other adc's are pidgeonholed into either getting IE or Trinity, which have fairly weak spikes in comparision until the items are completed.

That being said.

She doesn't need a massive nerf but she definately needs some toning down.

there are currently 5 other adc's with higher win rates, what do you have to say about that?

TurquoiseYoshiSep 5, 20158 votes

Win rates don't really mean anything unless you compare it to something else, like play rate.

AIIanSep 5, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Just face it, this champs is packed with as much utility as damage, she is overloaded.

I'll stop you right then. Yes, Vayne is too safe right now (why this is true is up to debate : nerf to other early adc, meta shifting, etc...) for a late-game hyper-carry, but please, stop saying about every champion that can do a thing well that he's "overloaded". Her passive is a SINGLE passive with a SINGLE effect, her W is another passive with yet another single effect, and so on. If you think Vayne is overloaded, you clearly haven't play Jinx, who can do twice more stuff than Vayne (depush, AoE burst, zoning, execute at long range, slow, root, range augmentation...), and Jinx isn't even the most overloaded champion.

It's unfair that she can freely gain that sustain early and profit so much from it while other adc's are pidgeonholed into either getting IE or Trinity, which have fairly weak spikes in comparision until the items are completed.

Then the root of the problem isn't Vayne, but the crappy itemization of more conventional adc. If we go this way, nearly every support can outtrade an adc until he got his third item. Giving access to the Lightbringer from ARAM would be a good first step since it really smooth the power curve of ADC, with some twist that is.

"Toning Vayne down", like you said, would make her balance in the game current state, but render her totally useless as soon as Riot will rework adc itemization or buff early bullies.

It Hertz When IPSep 5, 20153 votes

Methinks he heard the phrase "overloaded" and doesn't know what it actually means.

SlaktarTaskenSep 5, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I'll stop you right then. Yes, Vayne is too safe right now (why this is true is up to debate : nerf to other early adc, meta shifting, etc...) for a late-game hyper-carry, but please, stop saying about every champion that can do a thing well that he's "overloaded". Her passive is a SINGLE passive with a SINGLE effect, her W is another passive with yet another single effect, and so on. If you think Vayne is overloaded, you clearly haven't play Jinx, who can do twice more stuff than Vayne (depush, AoE burst, zoning, execute at long range, slow, root, range augmentation...), and Jinx isn't even the most overloaded champion.

Then the root of the problem isn't Vayne, but the crappy itemization of more conventional adc. If we go this way, nearly every support can outtrade an adc until he got his third item. Giving access to the Lightbringer from ARAM would be a good first step since it really smooth the power curve of ADC, with some twist that is.

"Toning Vayne down", like you said, would make her balance in the game current state, but render her totally useless as soon as Riot will rework adc itemization or buff early bullies.

I don't agree with anything you've written. And I don't get why so many wants to buff upp the whole class just because one champ is problematic.

ADC's aren't supposed to be ranged assassins that are impossible to duel, chase or run away from, there should be some kind of weakness, and atm, Vayne has 0 weaknessess, unlike say Twitch, who can potentially have as powerful a late game, but is actually vulnerable before he gets there, doesn't become godlike due to a single item powerspike, isn't remotely as slippery and can actually be dueled even if he is ahead.

Silents429Sep 5, 20155 votes

It's already been established by Meddler Vaynes issue is that the champions keeping her in check have been nerfed while we are in a meta that favors Vayne. The proper course is to buff those ADCs.

Can we stop making hundreds of threads trying to gut Vayne now?

SlaktarTaskenSep 5, 20152 votes

{quoted}

It's already been established by Meddler Vaynes issue is that the champions keeping her in check have been nerfed while we are in a meta that favors Vayne. The proper course is to buff those ADCs.

Can we stop making hundreds of threads trying to gut Vayne now?

Yeah, because Riot are always 100% correct, always make the right decisions etc, now that I think of it, why is there even a forum sector called Gameplay and Balance... let's see....

Silents429Sep 5, 20152 votes

Oh right, because the boards totally don't have a wonderful track record themselves of not being impulsive, Bias, or completely failing to comprehend how the smallest nerf or buff can have such massive butterfly affects.

Riot isn't 100% correct, and they have admitted they have hits and misses all the time, You want to know what the boards have? Almost entirely misses, and a slew of people who think they are qualified to decide balance just because they played the champion a few times. Game Experience =/= Game Balance

VAJAYJAYSTANKSep 5, 20151 votes

If you're gonna be like that why not examine the rest of the list? Heck, check for one week back while you're at it. You clearly have a better clue than I do.

HMM EAT YOUR OWN WORDS IF U TELL SOMEONE TO DO SOMETHING DONT GET MAD ABOUT IT .

LETS SEE HOW U CHANGE SUBJECT THIS TIME.

SlaktarTaskenSep 6, 20151 votes

I never told him to do anything. He's the one who told me what to do. Also, it's not like your point gets across because you caps, because you don't have one.

Now calm dow, you might get a heartattack from massive raging. :)

VAJAYJAYSTANKSep 6, 20151 votes

If you're gonna be like that why not examine the rest of the list? Heck, check for one week back while you're at it. You clearly have a better clue than I do.

this is your sentence so u pretty much gave him the ok to do so and then u get mad after he did lol just want to stop u from looking too dumb.

SlaktarTaskenSep 7, 20151 votes

Are you illiterate? I didn't tell him to do anything, he did it on his own. I just insinuated that since he's gonna analyze my match history he might as well do a good job of it, which he clearly couldn't/didn't want to.

I propose you read the posts again instead of pulling bs out of your rectum. :>

VAJAYJAYSTANKSep 8, 20151 votes

If you're gonna be like that why not examine the rest of the list? Heck, check for one week back while you're at it. You clearly have a better clue than I do.

U GAVE HIM THE OK TO DO SO THEN U GOT MAD AFTER HE DID IT LEARN TO REAAAAAAAAAAAAAAADDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

If you're gonna be like that why not examine the rest of the list? Heck, check for one week back while you're at it. You clearly have a better clue than I do.

If you're gonna be like that why not examine the rest of the list-U GAVE HIM THE OK TO DO SO

RysophageSep 5, 20153 votes

nah these babies don't understand how the meta shits have made vayne strong, and what indirect nerfs and buffs are.

SlaktarTaskenSep 4, 20151 votes

[deleted]

AstroFerrari Sep 4, 20153 votes

Ok then, what about Darius, Garen, or Skarner, or a fed Udyr, all of whom require the effort of 3 or more players to put down when ahead, and they can still very easily kill all 3 people quite easily. Vayne however is squishy as hell and can be nuked as soon as 1 bad move is made. 1 fed teammate can destroy Vayne with minimal effort if they play decently enough. She can also can only focus 1 champion at a time. Garen can focus 3 and kill all of them. Darius can steamroll 3 easily with his bleed and his sustain, and his ult which resets after each kill.

BluePolarizerSep 5, 20157 votes

Know whats the difference?

All 4 can be 1v1'ed by Vayne herself. Also you assume that ppl just sit there and let Darius/Garen/Skarner walk up to them. It doesn't work that way.

ApexInTheCircleSep 5, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Ok then, what about Darius, Garen, or Skarner, or a fed Udyr, all of whom require the effort of 3 or more players to put down when ahead, and they can still very easily kill all 3 people quite easily. Vayne however is squishy as hell and can be nuked as soon as 1 bad move is made. 1 fed teammate can destroy Vayne with minimal effort if they play decently enough. She can also can only focus 1 champion at a time. Garen can focus 3 and kill all of them. Darius can steamroll 3 easily with his bleed and his sustain, and his ult which resets after each kill.

and all of these said champions are melee based with low range and non existent gap closers.

SlaktarTaskenSep 4, 20151 votes

[deleted]

AstroFerrari Sep 4, 20152 votes

In each of those games you played, did Vayne win every single one and get fed? Did she kill 3 people as easily as you apparently think she would?

SlaktarTaskenSep 5, 20151 votes

[deleted]

AstroFerrari Sep 5, 20153 votes

Well I just checked your OP GG file, and you're a big liar. In the last 10 games you've played that are featured on your file, you faced a Vayne 3 times, and you WON EVERY SINGLE GAME YOU PLAYED AGAINST HER.

This tells me 2 things.

You're a hater
You need to get over yourself

http://euw.op.gg/summoner/userName=slaktarTasken In case you don't believe me

SlaktarTaskenSep 5, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Well I just checked your OP GG file, and you're a big liar. In the last 10 games you've played that are featured on your file, you faced a Vayne 3 times, and you WON EVERY SINGLE GAME YOU PLAYED AGAINST HER.

This tells me 2 things.

You're a hater

You need to get over yourself

http://euw.op.gg/summoner/userName=slaktarTasken In case you don't believe me

If you're gonna be like that why not examine the rest of the list? Heck, check for one week back while you're at it. You clearly have a better clue than I do.

Yes, ofc I'll dislike a champ that is extremely hard to punish. Sure I won these last games, but that doesn't change that fact that the difficulty overall when playing against Vayne still remains staggering because not only does she have highly effective tools, she has very high numbers behind them as well.

To make matters worse, she basicly doesn't have any counters anymore because most ADC's have been nerfed either through itemization or meta, Vayne has been gettig to eat her cake and keep it at the same time.

If I see a Corki, Ezreal or Lucian, I know my Cait game will probably be enough to get me through. If I see a Jinx, I either got Graves, Lucian or Ezreal to mess her up with. If I see Cait, I know I'm gonna win if I pick Jinx and outplay her.

(Yes I know supports also make a difference but that doesn't change the fact that some adc's just do better against others)

Who do I pick when going against Vayne when she outscales just about everyone, has a decent early game and is impossible to push out of lane as soon as she has a vampiric scepter? Tell me that wiseguy.

Sure, I can pick Jinx and that's what I've been doing lately, but that's a skill matchup at best and it doesn't lean in my favour.

I will have to play severely much better than Vayne because if she ever catches me alone, I'm screwed. I won't be packing a load of selfpeel, I can't chase unless my passive is triggered, heck, if Vayne is competent I won't even be able to outtrade her because her steroids and mobility are simply better.

My only hope is to outperform her during teamfights or pray my support is better or have better communication with my support than she does with hers so I can get ahead during laning phase. Yet even if I do, I'll still never be able to duel her if she knows what she's doing, no matter how far ahead I might get.

All that while she is free to do whatver she wants and roams as she pleases because that's the way she's built.

AstroFerrari Sep 5, 20152 votes

I went back as far as 2 weeks, and in all of your losses, only 2 more were to a Vayne. One of these games you got a triple kill as Vi and you still lost. Vayne barely went positive in that game. Another game in which you played as Annie and a Vayne was against you, that Vayne went 5/15/7. The game were Vayne was actually fed and won the game for her team? That person was Silver 5 and you're Gold 5, you don't have any excuse to lose to someone thats seemingly that far below your skill level.

If you're going to omit lies because you a hate virtual character for absolutely nothing, I suggest you quit playing this game and do something that actually makes you happy. It's not even Vayne that you're losing to, only one of your losses included a Vayne that was actually fed. And you're really over exaggerating her abilities.

Counter pick her by poking her and praying that your support is decent. Stop being an idiot and crying about something you really should just adapt to. Also, it's clear that what you're struggling with in your games isn't just Vayne. In one of your losses you got beat by a fed Jax, who has no true damage and almost no mobility. You need to realize you can't win every game.

League isn't a game where you can be beat solely by 1 factor. You're losing to a lot more than just your perception of how powerful Vayne is.

I will tell you what to do because idiots need to be told the truth from time to time.

SlaktarTaskenSep 5, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I went back as far as 2 weeks, and in all of your losses, only 2 more were to a Vayne. One of these games you got a triple kill as Vi and you still lost. Vayne barely went positive in that game. Another game in which you played as Annie and a Vayne was against you, that Vayne went 5/15/7. The game were Vayne was actually fed and won the game for her team? That person was Silver 5 and you're Gold 5, you don't have any excuse to lose to someone thats seemingly that far below your skill level.

If you're going to omit lies because you a hate virtual character for absolutely nothing, I suggest you quit playing this game and do something that actually makes you happy. It's not even Vayne that you're losing to, only one of your losses included a Vayne that was actually fed. And you're really over exaggerating her abilities.

Counter pick her by poking her and praying that your support is decent. Stop being an idiot and crying about something you really should just adapt to. Also, it's clear that what you're struggling with in your games isn't just Vayne. In one of your losses you got beat by a fed Jax, who has no true damage and almost no mobility. You need to realize you can't win every game.

League isn't a game where you can be beat solely by 1 factor. You're losing to a lot more than just your perception of how powerful Vayne is.

I will tell you what to do because idiots need to be told the truth from time to time.

Wow, just wow. First of, I made gold just 1 hour ago, guess who more or less carried the game? Me (Annie) and (surprise) Vayne (we more or less had mirror stats).

Yes, I lost that Vi game, you can't win every game even if you're ahead, you know, not all teams can be carried. But I'm sure you can carry every team when you're ahead, no matter if they throw. Right?

If your gonna make an analisys of my match history then stop nitpicking for the information that suits you. If not then don't bother.

I don't hate Vayne for no reason, I've explained very well why I can't stand her, once again you nitpick whatever info suits your argument, it's low and pathetic argumentation and if that's the way you're gonna proceed then don't bother ok?

Counterpick by poking her you say? Wtf do you mean? How about give a concrete example of what you mean, like a scenario, instead of another herp derp "just cc her" argument.

Stop being an idiot? Do you really have anything bright to say or are you just gonna attack my persona all day because I don't agree with you?

Oh, just checked ur OP.GG, says it all. Another toxic Vayne main who fears for their life if they actually have to put in an effort to win a game. I think this dialouge ends here.

AstroFerrari Sep 5, 20152 votes

And so the fuck what? You, as Annie with an AOE stun and passive that lets you nuke Vayne into nothing cause you know she isn't building MR.

You said to go back further, that's what I did. You said Vayne was overpowered, has too much, is too safe, always carries, and I proved you wrong. I didn't nitpick anything idiot, you stated your argument and I counter argued you. You hate her because you can't beat her? You hate her because you seemingly always "struggle" when one is in the game? You lied 3 times and got caught, so I'm still not sure what it is that you hate about her.

Let's see, Vayne is limited to nothing but AAs and her entire kit are AA steroids right? So she's limited to a 550 range. Pick someone who outranges her and can poke her safely, this isn't rocket science. Hell, Tristana is a good pick into Vayne. AOE damage and AS boost, and a very reliable escape. Her passive naturally allows her to outrange Vayne as well. Caitlyn outranges Vayne too, and her traps just got buffed.

No, I don't have anything bright to say to idiots, because as you might understand, there is a vast different in intelligence between you and I.

"Another toxic Vayne main blah blah blah" Tell yourself whatever you want to feel better. Good luck out there.

SlaktarTaskenSep 5, 20153 votes

{quoted}

And so the fuck what? You, as Annie with an AOE stun and passive that lets you nuke Vayne into nothing cause you know she isn't building MR.

You said to go back further, that's what I did. You said Vayne was overpowered, has too much, is too safe, always carries, and I proved you wrong. I didn't nitpick anything idiot, you stated your argument and I counter argued you. You hate her because you can't beat her? You hate her because you seemingly always "struggle" when one is in the game? You lied 3 times and got caught, so I'm still not sure what it is that you hate about her.

Let's see, Vayne is limited to nothing but AAs and her entire kit are AA steroids right? So she's limited to a 550 range. Pick someone who outranges her and can poke her safely, this isn't rocket science. Hell, Tristana is a good pick into Vayne. AOE damage and AS boost, and a very reliable escape. Her passive naturally allows her to outrange Vayne as well. Caitlyn outranges Vayne too, and her traps just got buffed.

No, I don't have anything bright to say to idiots, because as you might understand, there is a vast different in intelligence between you and I.

"Another toxic Vayne main blah blah blah" Tell yourself whatever you want to feel better. Good luck out there.

Vayne was on my team, you don't "carry" if you lose. facepalm

No, I've never claimed Vayne always carries, that's just some absurd bs you're pulling out of your rectum to make your argument seem valid.

Yes, I believe she has too much, I don't mind her having the tools that she has even though I feel they are overbearing. I've never said, take away X or Y from her (skill/abilitywise), I feel that her numbers are what needs to be tuned down.

For instance: She already synergizes extremely well with Botrk, an item which is both cheaper and has more easely accessable components than the items other ADC's are pidgeonholed into buying, does she then also need to have the games highest scaling AS?

You haven't proven anything, you're just having a circlejerk with yourself. :>

Why do you insist on calling me an idiot? Hueh, I don't care, go ahead if it makes ya feel better chump.

Yes, you are clearly nitpicking and apparently mentally deranged as well.

First of all, I've written "oppressive", "overtuned" and "overbearing", not once in this thread have I used the word "overpowered", get your facts together because right now you're just making a fool of yourself.

First you rage on me because I've beaten her when I claimed she's harder to beat than she needs to be, now you claim I'm angry because I can't beat her, you aren't that bright are you?

Anyway, you're clearly just out to pick a fight, because you are a mean and unloved person. Probably because you're weak both physically and mentaly and just as ugly. Thus, this is the only way you can get your kicks and get to feel superior without having reality beat you down. :>

"No, I don't have anything bright to say to idiots, because as you might understand, there is a vast different in intelligence between you and I."

Hahahahahahaha! :,D

CrettSep 5, 20155 votes

this conversation is honestly depressing to read. both of you should probably understand that you're talking to a human being and being very hostile to them over a video game character

vayne's annoying and all, but there's a pretty clear line separating a civil conversation and a purely destructive one, and nothing is going to come out of this but bad vibes

VAJAYJAYSTANKSep 5, 20152 votes

If you're gonna be like that why not examine the rest of the list? Heck, check for one week back while you're at it. You clearly have a better clue than I do.

u told him to do it and then u bitch about it and get mad over it??

Baseball3bSep 4, 201513 votes

There's a ton of other factors that go into it.

The current meta, current state of other ADCS, FOTM champions, and itemization to name a few.

SlaktarTaskenSep 5, 20151 votes

[deleted]

Baseball3bSep 5, 201512 votes

With the current state of bot lane, I'd rather see other ADCs brought up to par. I know it's been overstated, but one of the biggest reasons for Vayne's current dominance is the disappearance of lane bully ADCs which screwed up her power curve and let her hit her spikes earlier than normal.

If, after buffing other ADCs, Vayne is still too strong, then we can go from there, but I'd rather not see her nerfed as a knee-jerk reaction.

A Miss FortuneSep 5, 201513 votes

I agree, Vayne might be too strong but most ADCs might be too weak. Not in comparison to other ADCs are ADCs weak, and most of them in comparison to each other are fairly balanced and strong, but in comparison to pretty much any other role they're seemingly weak. Even when they're 50-0 they can still be 1v1'ed by a lot of Mid, Top, and Junglers if they don't play the 1v1 out perfectly in every way they could play it perfectly.

I feel like the Marksmen rework is good for the game when it does come, because Marksmen just doesn't feel that good to play a lot of the time. You can get fed and do as well as you want, but you NEED your team around you at all times, you NEED to have perfect mechanics, you NEED to have a perfect build, failing to do/have any of this will mean you're ineffective and will probably just end up feeding all game long. Who knows, maybe Riot wants ADCs to be like this but I feel like there should be more than just; "shoot stuff, buy damage, pray to god your team can peel for you before rengar one shots you again"

Baseball3bSep 5, 20153 votes

I feel that they should have low survivability just because of their sustained DPS, but they shouldn't be this weak. There's a reason bot lane is constantly crapped on and sees 4 or 5v2 dives all the time. Regardless, I still think the issue is that the champions that made Vayne's life hell (Cait, Graves, Lucian) are just in a bad spot.

SlaktarTaskenSep 5, 20153 votes

{quoted}

I feel that they should have low survivability just because of their sustained DPS, but they shouldn't be this weak. There's a reason bot lane is constantly crapped on and sees 4 or 5v2 dives all the time. Regardless, I still think the issue is that the champions that made Vayne's life hell (Cait, Graves, Lucian) are just in a bad spot.

Actually, as an ADC main, I don't feel ADC's are in such a horrible spot, we could be perhaps just a tiny bit stronger overall but honestly it's nothing that gets to me, if I outperform my lane oppoent, I will most likely win the game, unless both mid and top lane get massively stomped.

I just feel that Vayne is in a too good spot.

Baseball3bSep 5, 20151 votes

No I agree there -- I'm mainly talking about the tiny bit of power they could have.

The biggest issue regarding Vayne though, and I know I've already said it, is the strength of her counters at the moment. Buff them, even slightly, and I'd be willing to bet money that Vayne would see her power curve corrected.

SlaktarTaskenSep 5, 20152 votes

{quoted}

No I agree there -- I'm mainly talking about the tiny bit of power they could have.

The biggest issue regarding Vayne though, and I know I've already said it, is the strength of her counters at the moment. Buff them, even slightly, and I'd be willing to bet money that Vayne would see her power curve corrected.

Historically she has been a circumstantial pick, someone you definately wouldn't pick into certain comps, now she feels more like a wellrounded and safe pick regardless of what your opponets have chosen to play, I believe the introduction and changes to bork have played a large part as to why Vayne is in the current state she is.

Not as to say I don't agree, ofc, if you nerf a champs counters that champ will automaticall become a stronger pick.

I just don't see the correlation between power curve (which I delegate to items, build paths, stats etc) and counters.

BluePolarizerSep 5, 20152 votes

I might have to say that with other ADCs being weak, it has made the worst ADC for bruisers to deal with strong.

Ironically, buffing other ADCs might make tanks strong again because now the other ADCs hold Vayne in check.

A Miss FortuneSep 5, 20152 votes

Yeah, I could see how that works. Vayne wouldn't be able to be played as often, and if she would be she would actually have counters. Right now Vayne has relatively low counters, Caitlyn does NOT counter Vayne taking in consideration Vayne's gap closers (passive/tumble combined) to ignore Caitlyn's high range, and also Vayne able to tumble out of Caitlyn's ability's aside from her ultimate.

Right now the only ADC in the game that I would say counters Vayne, is oddly Miss Fortune. Miss Fortune unlike Caitlyn doesn't rely on poke to be effective, instead Miss Fortune due to her Q resets+damage, W passive, and her W active let's Miss Fortune effectively all-in someone easily. Typically the only ADCs that all-in someone are those with auto attack steroids or burst, which Caitlyn has basically none of. Miss Fortune does on the other hand and can make Vayne's life horrible with her high range poke (same range as Caitlyn's autos) and her scary all-in burst/sustained damage.

Vayne however outscales Miss Fortune, and she outscales her HARD. Miss Fortune is pretty bad late game while Vayne is arguably the best late game hypercarry.

Buffing other ADCs would be a great indirect nerf to Vayne, since Vayne wasn't that big of a deal a while ago, but now that Graves, Caitlyn, Miss Fortune, etc all have been nerfed or just fallen out of place in the meta, Vayne can be such a safe and powerful pick.

SlaktarTaskenSep 5, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Miss Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EFQuYEe2,comment-id=0003000100000000000000010000,timestamp=2015-09-05T01:45:57.081+0000)

Yeah, I could see how that works. Vayne wouldn't be able to be played as often, and if she would be she would actually have counters. Right now Vayne has relatively low counters, Caitlyn does NOT counter Vayne taking in consideration Vayne's gap closers (passive/tumble combined) to ignore Caitlyn's high range, and also Vayne able to tumble out of Caitlyn's ability's aside from her ultimate.

Right now the only ADC in the game that I would say counters Vayne, is oddly Miss Fortune. Miss Fortune unlike Caitlyn doesn't rely on poke to be effective, instead Miss Fortune due to her Q resets+damage, W passive, and her W active let's Miss Fortune effectively all-in someone easily. Typically the only ADCs that all-in someone are those with auto attack steroids or burst, which Caitlyn has basically none of. Miss Fortune does on the other hand and can make Vayne's life horrible with her high range poke (same range as Caitlyn's autos) and her scary all-in burst/sustained damage.

Vayne however outscales Miss Fortune, and she outscales her HARD. Miss Fortune is pretty bad late game while Vayne is arguably the best late game hypercarry.

Buffing other ADCs would be a great indirect nerf to Vayne, since Vayne wasn't that big of a deal a while ago, but now that Graves, Caitlyn, Miss Fortune, etc all have been nerfed or just fallen out of place in the meta, Vayne can be such a safe and powerful pick.

During the beginning of your post I thought: I should really pick up MF and give her a go, and as the post proceeded I was just like... herp-di-derp. Guess I'll just stick to picking Jinx into Vayne while praying I vastly outskill the Vayne I'm going against. :3

A Miss FortuneSep 5, 20152 votes

Miss Fortune isn't bad by any means, she has a LOT going for her and I think the sole reason people say she's weak is simply due to the community rumor over it. Remember how Urgot was the biggest joke? Before he was picked and banned a ton in competitive play and is now going to be reworked because people find him toxic and unfair to fight, but that's off-topic.

I don't think putting Jinx into Vayne is a good idea, Vayne will easily outduel Jinx with her Tumble + Silver Bolts, plus Vayne can just flat out ignore most of Jinx's kit with her Tumble. Jinx has a significantly better teamfight than Vayne, though dying once to Vayne as Jinx can cost the entire game.

RogueWillSep 5, 20151 votes

Just go . Vayne 3 hits passive might chuck you but Tristana E + 2 aa will chunk you as badly. She can all in her effectively as long as she rushes damage over Bork (tristana) and her range will keep increasing making trades favorably. She still has one of teh best disengages with W+R so unless you get pinned to a wall vayne will be unable to kill you or outfarm you during laning phase. Late game tristana is still good, you are not vayne good but you are close enough.

BluePolarizerSep 5, 20153 votes

Tristana can easily outcarry Vayne in a 1v1 because Tristana can kite Vayne and has surprising E/R burst, while Vayne is pure DPS. I've seen cases where Tristana feeds Vayne in lane then destroys her 1v1 later.

However, that's in a vacuum 1v1. In reality Tristana isn't as good since she can't deal with full tanks or heavy fighters the way Vayne can.

AhhShucksSep 5, 20152 votes

Vayne outscales her hard in the sense that she kills a tank faster than MF does. ADC's all scale pretty hard though, they all kill eachother in like 2 hits hits late game. Even late game MF's attack reset makes her pretty damn strong in ADC duels.

kaykalosSep 5, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Miss Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EFQuYEe2,comment-id=00030001000000000000,timestamp=2015-09-05T00:25:47.656+0000)

I agree, Vayne might be too strong but most ADCs might be too weak. Not in comparison to other ADCs are ADCs weak, and most of them in comparison to each other are fairly balanced and strong, but in comparison to pretty much any other role they're seemingly weak. Even when they're 50-0 they can still be 1v1'ed by a lot of Mid, Top, and Junglers if they don't play the 1v1 out perfectly in every way they could play it perfectly.

I feel like the Marksmen rework is good for the game when it does come, because Marksmen just doesn't feel that good to play a lot of the time. You can get fed and do as well as you want, but you NEED your team around you at all times, you NEED to have perfect mechanics, you NEED to have a perfect build, failing to do/have any of this will mean you're ineffective and will probably just end up feeding all game long. Who knows, maybe Riot wants ADCs to be like this but I feel like there should be more than just; "shoot stuff, buy damage, pray to god your team can peel for you before rengar one shots you again"

Wtf are u talking about, marksmen can kite, kiting is to deal damage without taking much, if riot gives the autonomy to marksmen to do 1v1 then there is no reason for meele dps champions with very low amount of cc to exists, marksmen not supposed to be a strong class for 1v1

SlaktarTaskenSep 5, 20152 votes

{quoted}

With the current state of bot lane, I'd rather see other ADCs brought up to par. I know it's been overstated, but one of the biggest reasons for Vayne's current dominance is the disappearance of lane bully ADCs which screwed up her power curve and let her hit her spikes earlier than normal.

If, after buffing other ADCs, Vayne is still too strong, then we can go from there, but I'd rather not see her nerfed as a knee-jerk reaction.

Her counters may have been nerfed, this is ofc problematic, but it doesn't change the fact that Vayne is from a numerical perspective: overtuned.

Baseball3bSep 5, 20152 votes

That's debatable though. She's been kept relatively the same for quite a long time and the vast majority of people haven't had an issue with her for the most part except those who got outplayed or stomped by one.

Like I've been saying, the bad state of her counters is mainly what's made her dominant. She's allowed to farm relatively safely, and is able to buy her items much much earlier than she used to, which means she hits her power spikes much earlier.

All I'm saying, is give Cait/Luc/Graves a bit of lane power back and see what happens. If Vayne's still too strong afterwards, then you can change her numbers. It just doesn't make sense to nerf Vayne, then watch as other adcs get inevitably buffed, which creates more work.

GodSupport KatieSep 5, 20153 votes

The thing is though bot lane is not the only lane, even if the other ADCs bully her she can just farm and proceed to crap on anyone who doesn't have a point and click CC ready. She does not need that much AD to function at all. A bork and PD is more than enough for her to kill a squishy. Maybe if her ult had a higher CD and her Q CD is increased maybe she would be a bit better.

Edit: She is the most played champ int he game and still manages to maintain a good winrate compared to champs like zed and lee sin. http://www.lolking.net/charts?region=all&type=champion-popularity&range=monthly&map=sr&queue=1x1