"We're nerfing Shyvana because she might be too strong with the Devouer changes"

metaworldpeace10·Jul 2, 2015·89 votes·5,662 views

But the Balance team can't preemptively nerf Vladamir and Rumble who will be hilariously broken with the new AP item changes. Rumble is already pick/ban in competetive, not to mention how strong he is in solo queue. Let's also not forget that Vladamir's design is complete cancer and lacks significant counterplay. It's going to be almost impossible to take a vlad down when he gets . I guess I'm not allowed to trade with Vladamir anymore.

facepalm This Balance Team sometimes..

66 Comments

TehNACHOJul 2, 201526 votes

I'll be honest, I love the other teams (ChampUP I love you) but geez, the Live Balance Team sometimes just leave a lot more to be desired.

EvilRabbittJul 2, 20153 votes

Best team is the art team ^.^ Edit: Usually...

I Main SwainJul 3, 20151 votes

im still not a fan of the new kat splash. better quality, but I don't like how she looks in it. it also annoys me slightly that 2/3 of the new splashes seem to have them in a shot leaning sharply towards you.

EvilRabbittJul 3, 20151 votes

Ik =(. I found so many splash arts for ahri, then the one they picked (though pretty) is not what I would have. I found a lot of really good ones =/

IxozielJul 2, 201515 votes

WotA will be a buff late game when enemies have significant amount of mr. It won't be a buff in the laning stage. Why? Because you get 15% healing from creeps instead of 20%. That's fairly significant. Most enemies won't have more than 25-30% MR early game anyway. You don't sit there spamming Qs against your enemy unless they're idiots. They either all-in you or stay back, so you end up using Q a lot on creeps to heal yourself. In this situation it's a nerf.

EVEN late game you're likely to have huge amounts of mpen, so it won't be a big buff.

Even though WotA is better late game against enemies with a good amount of MR, it still won't matter. Why? Because spell vamp doesn't matter that much in team fights. Zhonyas / damage is far more important. Getting 15% of your Q damage and 5% of your E / R damage isn't going to keep you alive.

The recent-ish rylais change that made it 400 hp / 100 ap was a far bigger change than this is for vladimir. The Liandrys change will also help him a lot, but rylais will still be more important (especially because it doubles the damage on liandrys...)

Zair UmbrasJul 2, 20153 votes

Only takes a single MR item and being melee to get 50% reduction. At level 1 as a melee, you have about 30 base, usually with scaling MR glyphs, so you're at about 35 MR. 35 MR is about 26% by itself. Get a 50 MR item first like a SV or Banshee's or even a Maw and you now have about 100 at that point in the game which is 50% reduction. So... yeeaah.

NightNinja13Jul 2, 201511 votes

I actually would love some context on the shyvana Nerf. I thought she was in a good spot.

Z46Jul 2, 20158 votes

Jungle Shyvana has very high win rates right now, while Top Shyvana falls pretty flat.

They're nerfing her at the cost of her top lane performance dropping even more, just because her jungle presence is too strong for their liking.

Champion SkinJul 2, 201519 votes

Well doesn't her W deal increased damage to monsters? Wouldn't it be logical to hit that before the base damage (as that wouldn't affect top lane Shyvana?)

Slamurai JackJul 2, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=Champion Skin,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EFOiR3Pd,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2015-07-02T12:45:45.054+0000)

Well doesn't her W deal increased damage to monsters? Wouldn't it be logical to hit that before the base damage (as that wouldn't affect top lane Shyvana?)

It does if we assume the reason they're nerfing it is because Riot thinks that she clears the jungle too fast. People seem intent on assuming that is the reason for the nerf, but Riot has given no justification for the nerf so far. I'm personally of the opinion that they're nerfing it because her mid game dueling is just too good after the last buff, and that affects top lane too.

KingsgraveJul 2, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EFOiR3Pd,comment-id=0004000000000000,timestamp=2015-07-02T12:48:45.223+0000)

It does if we assume the reason they're nerfing it is because Riot thinks that she clears the jungle too fast. People seem intent on assuming that is the reason for the nerf, but Riot has given no justification for the nerf so far. I'm personally of the opinion that they're nerfing it because her mid game dueling is just too good after the last buff, and that affects top lane too.

They only seem to want to nerf the late game damage of it, not the early

Removing the 20% increase would hurt her jungle at all stages

Slamurai JackJul 2, 20152 votes

{quoted}

They only seem to want to nerf the late game damage of it, not the early

Removing the 20% increase would hurt her jungle at all stages

It hurts her mid game most because she always maxes it first. Late game is won't make nearly as much of a difference because your damage from other sources (devourer, botrk, Q, and E) make up a far greater % of your total damage so the W nerf isn't as significant. But it's definitely a decent nerf to her lvl 5, 7, and 9 power.

KingsgraveJul 2, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EFOiR3Pd,comment-id=000400000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-07-02T23:20:57.570+0000)

It hurts her mid game most because she always maxes it first. Late game is won't make nearly as much of a difference because your damage from other sources (devourer, botrk, Q, and E) make up a far great % of your total damage so the W nerf isn't as significant. But it's definitely a decent nerf to her lvl 5, 7, and 9 power.

She does honestly become one of the scariest Sated Junglers because all 4 parts of her kit work with it unlike others having a maximum of 2.

Q gets a lower CD, W damage on hit is doubled, E health damage is doubled, R allows you to stay in Dragon Form forever as long as you have a target and you can get Dragon Form incredibly fast

Slamurai JackJul 2, 20154 votes

Shyv honestly deserved this nerf even without accounting for the new item. She's already one of the best junglers in the game. The new item is going to make her broken and I expect her to become permaban after a week or so.

Avios1Jul 2, 20152 votes

https://understandingandfaith.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/its-only-logical-thumb.jpg?w=474

GundayMondayJul 2, 20151 votes

Right, but she also has hard counters.

Thought experiment: Let's buff her W further instead of nerfing it. Now pick her against a team like Gnar Anivia Sejuani Braum Kalista . I would love to see a Shyvana win against that (she won't) when she can't get close enough to auto attack anyone from all the slows.

I don't get why the balance team is doing this. The game is like rock paper scissors. When the other team picks scissors, you pick rock if you want to win. No need to nerf everything so that every champ becomes pocksors (average in the middle stats). It's honestly fine to have win rates that high if she's being picked to counter a specific comp. That's how the game is supposed to be played. Not her fault that the playerbase isn't smart enough to counter pick her correctly.

Not sure! Maybe I'm thinking about this incorrectly. Been playing her a lot in teambuilder, and strong or not, there are certain champs that she can't do ANYTHING against just because of how her kit works (I absolutely hate good Zilean Azir players when jungling Shyvana ).

My $0.02.

SlampieceHawkeJul 3, 20151 votes

I know this to be true from personal experience. That game really made me wish I picked Trundle nstead. That was also before the kalista passive nerfs though.

GundayMondayJul 3, 20151 votes

I still think current kalista could hop away from a shyvanna running at her. Should test this out to see.

SlampieceHawkeJul 3, 20152 votes

not when I'm rockin summoner 3 item 3706 item 3153 item 3267 item 3022 , which I do almost everytime I play shy in the jangle XD. Not to mention the triple move quints I run and some CDR w/ glyphs and maybe a item 3065 because I sure do love my burnout to last.

SlampieceHawkeJul 3, 20151 votes

but of course, if their team is competent and their whole team is ahead because the enemy jungle did nothing but gank before you hit your 6, then yeah they can probably just peel the shit out of you.

GundayMondayJul 5, 20151 votes

You would die before you could kill her with that build btw.

SlampieceHawkeJul 8, 20151 votes

only if her team mates are there and doing a good job peeling. At that point it would be suicide to ignore everyone else and run straight to her. Sometimes I'll tear into the backline and other times its best just to peel for your own as shy. All depends.

GundayMondayJul 8, 20151 votes

No lol. You would just die with that build. No armor. Her item 3153 would melt you.

SlampieceHawkeJul 8, 20151 votes

Right. There is one more slot available though for another item. I neglected to mention I usually get a randuins as well.

GundayMondayJul 9, 20151 votes

I hear you. Try it. A Kalista running the standard item 3153 item 3035 item 3072 item 3085 item 3006 item 3102 build would still kill you before you killed her (just because of the kiting and hopping and sustaining).

You would need something like item 3075 item 3143 item 3068 item 3047 item 3153 item 3718 if you wanted to survive that adc.

Honestly not sure after her nerfs this patch. Recommend trying it out though, maybe you're right in 5.13. I've been learning shyvanna and have not had much success 1v1 against diamond level kalistas because she can kite and out dps me unless I go an armor heavy build.

MaliginantJul 2, 20151 votes

Gold player here, I actually experience a lot of success playing top lane shyvana when I play her as a split pushing threat. She's tanky enough to shrug off most of the melee top laners in the current meta and her on-hit damage makes her difficult for some top laners to itemize against if your adc gets fed.

Tbh, most of shyv's damage comes from her burnout and burnout/e on-hit procs. I'm not really sure if she'll be to brawl with other top laners after this nerf goes through if she loses ~100-150 damage per burnout at max rank; additionally, this will nerf her dragon form's burnout trail effect.

metaworldpeace10Jul 2, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Gold player here, I actually experience a lot of success playing top lane shyvana when I play her as a split pushing threat. She's tanky enough to shrug off most of the melee top laners in the current meta and her on-hit damage makes her difficult for some top laners to itemize against if your adc gets fed.

Tbh, most of shyv's damage comes from her burnout and burnout/e on-hit procs. I'm not really sure if she'll be to brawl with other top laners after this nerf goes through if she loses ~100-150 damage per burnout at max rank; additionally, this will nerf her dragon form's burnout trail effect.

And then you play against a Kalista and you're not allowed to auto attack her

MyrmironJul 2, 20154 votes

{quoted}

I actually would love some context on the shyvana Nerf. I thought she was in a good spot.

Basically not playable in lane = good spot lol

FeathermaneJul 2, 20152 votes

As long as she was never played, she was in just the right spot.

FadedpfJul 2, 20159 votes

Meanwhile no nerfs to MasterYi

Ancestor007Jul 2, 20151 votes

He will be a monster with SD, but he is very weak early. A successful invade and it will be much harder for him to stomp in the next 10 mins

FirstSergeantBimJul 2, 20152 votes

LOL! Then invade goes sour and he picks up two kills. Seriously how is Yi weak early? He clears the jungle really well and it's really hard to kill Yi. It's not like he can't zone out and become untargetable or take 50% damage reduction while his team collapses on the invaders.

Golden Tager XJul 3, 20151 votes

he is weak early because he wont have wer, seriously go yi top and just try to kill someone at level 12345 and see what happens, he scales really well and that is why he can be good (if the enemy doesnt have any cc besides slows) but no his early game is absolute crap

FirstSergeantBimJul 3, 20151 votes

I will concede that his kill pressure is weakest early in the match, but to say that he is weak early implies that he is a push-over. A non-threat. A champion who is easily killed and safe to pick on. Of which I do not believe to be the case. Picking on Yi is like dancing with the devil; especially if you're in a dark jungle with no knowledge of his CDs or Summoners.

Slamurai JackJul 2, 20155 votes

Where have they said this? Because I can't find it anywhere. As far as I can tell, people are just assuming that this is the reason for the nerf but I have yet to see anyone from Riot actually say that anywhere.

THESuperStuntManJul 2, 20155 votes

I think it's even worse that they are preemptively nerfing Shyv and Xin when it's always been MasterYi who benefits the most from attack speed jungling items. I imagine he'll be permabanned in lower level soloque.

Leaf of the lakeJul 2, 20153 votes

Vlad likes the rylais and liandrys changes more than the wota change tbh. Being able to more effectively kite/chase with his Q and E now (before only his Q was particularly good for being single-target), combined with the items already being naturally efficient on him due to their stats, makes them much more desirable pickups. And since he has a sustained damage pattern, liandrys is fully functional on him.

Silents429Jul 2, 20152 votes

Boards know balance best obviously.

Drunk RummateJul 2, 20152 votes

Honorable mention goes to Swain, who is just as bad as Vlad and simply not as popular for some reason.

JustMyBassCannonJul 2, 20151 votes

Because he uses Mana, and the community is allergic to calling strong-but-relatively-balanced Mana champions overpowered.

Meep ManJul 2, 20152 votes

Yeah, but the Devourer change is a straight buff to Shyvana while the AP item changes are just a mix around of stats and gold. The only items Rumble really benefited from being changed are item 3135 and item 3151 . item 3089 is pretty late game on him too, but since the rest of his build became generally more expensive, its now a lot harder to get to. Its not even the biggest buff if even a buff at all. item 3116 is a buff, sure, but not the biggest. It only gave him a 5% increase in slow on his Q and his already uber slowing E and R. Ok, his Q might get like 10 base damage cut off and his R like 5 per tick. But nothing else is really needed.

Vladimir didn't get uber buffed. The Wota change is only super helpful against Tanks and will be about the same early game against enemy champions. The only scary thing is Rylai's. Vladimir will probably get some reductions on his W damage to be not 300 at Level 5 and he will be fine. Its not too major of a change.

Juggernaut NJul 3, 20152 votes

Dude i've tested it on the pbe and shyv is completely broken. These nerfs are nothing.

5050BSJul 4, 20152 votes

Yet Yi, WW, Cho get no nerf

Shyv and Xin get nerfed WTF riot go home you're drink

slippykittenJul 2, 20151 votes

I couldn't begin to tell you why, but it is apparent that the balance team simply doesn't want all champs to be viable at a certain time. There have been certain champs that after every patch managed to work their way back into being playable and got nerfs everytime until they were complete trash and other champs that were allowed to keep getting stronger or remain viable forever.

BatteryDeadJul 2, 20151 votes

Why don't they just test it on the PBE? Isn't that what the thing is for?

Ice BirbJul 3, 20151 votes

I got Shyvana as my mystery champion. Now she is getting nerfed?

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Rinky DinkyJul 3, 20151 votes

I really don't get it either.

They do the exact opposite of what they say sometimes.

I love the random AP xin nerf.

SlampieceHawkeJul 3, 20151 votes

I think it's only fair that I have a great jungle clear as Shyvana . So many other junglers have great pre 6 ganking potential and I'd rather not get flamed at for not being able to counter gank because of a jungle clear nerf. A fast jungle clear is an identity of hers that i'd like riot to keep. If her jg clear would get nerfed, then how am I supposed to counter gank or even be relevant in gold while the other junglers are pulling off successful ganks because all a sudden I'm farming like Rammus