In her current iteration, Eve will never be allowed to be strong

Koechophe··62 votes·5,296 views

I have been playing Eve since before her rework. I loved her as a champion and loved the playstyle of hopping in and out of stealth and roaming the map. If you're familiar with Eve's balance history, you'd know that there have been serious ups and downs. It's safe to say that Eve is one of the most polarizing and potentially toxic champions in the league. But the issue is this; every time Eve becomes a popular or competitive pick, she is immediately nerfed to a huge extent.

If you look at the current PBE, Eve is once again getting a massive set of nerfs. Her Q is losing 20 damage at max level (which, since the ability only has a base of 100, is huge), runeglaive is losing its aoe component and it no longer turns the attack used to magic damage. This not only shoves eve back into the position of awkwardly being unable to focus solely on magic pen and magic damage, but also decimates her DPS potential. Both the nerfs to runeglaive and the nerfs to eve are substantial; together they are extremely significant and damaging. (please don't say "it's pbe, it's tentative", because about 90% of the champion balance changes on PBE end up going live).

This is not the first time this has happened. Eve has recieved a steady stream of nerfs with little to no actual buffs (decreasing her passive cooldown, while nice, doesn't really do much). She was a nightmare after her rework, and then she was nerfed into oblivion. Occaisonally the meta will allow for her to be powerful (like it has now), and she is swiftly nerfed back into a position where she is niche at best and outshined by almost every other assassin jungle.

This is not to say that Eve should just blindly be buffed; on the contrary, I think buffing Eve is a stupid idea. This is just to say that Eve's design is flawed, because whenever she is powerful, it is toxic and lacks significant counterplay. Her stealth mechanic was reworked because there was no ample way to play around it, but in creating a jungler who can gleefully hop over wards unseen, riot runs into the same issues they were trying to resolve; there just isn't a significant counterplay to Eve. Pink wards are extremely expensive, and it is literally impossible to cover all avenues of approach, added to the fact that in the ideal circumstance, a sight ward can only actually work once. The main counterplay to junglers is sight, but Eve skips over all of that, all the time.

This means that if Eve is powerful, then every person on the map just has to play the whole game fearfully. Lanes can't extend or engage very well, because at any moment, Eve could pop out of stealth and kill them. Teamfights get messy, because you always assume Eve is there when she could be taking objectives or sitting at the back, ready to pick off the ADC if they get even the tiniest bit out of position. But you also can't cluster, because eve's ult will basically win the teamfight if it's engaged properly. Eve is, at her core, an assassin, but when she's able to actually assassinate people, she's broken, because at any given time, she can pop out of stealth and anhilate you. This is not healthy for the game.

So the balance struck is that Eve compensates for her incredible advantage gained through stealth by making her an exceptionally squishy champion whose ganks are objectively terrible. Eve doesn't have any cc to her name except her ult, and even then, it's just a slow. Her burst is low in lane, and she can't dive worth crap. Almost any champion in the game, provided they could actually jungle, could gank better than Eve. But there's nothing you can do about Eve's ganks.

This is the Dillema; if Eve is actually strong, she will inevitably be nerfed, because being strong and having stealth is unhealthy and polarazes the game. In her current iteration, Eve will always be nerfed until she feels lackluster compared to the rest of the junglers. Because Eve has an incredible strength in her passive, the rest of her kit is kept disproportionately weak.

Here are possible ways to solve that.

  1. Remove Eve's ability to hop wards Most people will hate this recommendation, but it is really the thing holding Eve back. If she was visible to sight wards, then she could be allowed to have impactful ganks and powerful gameplay. So long as it was well-compensated, this change could really bring Eve to a more healthy position from a gameplay standpoint.
  2. Move Eve's stealth to an active ability. If Eve didn't have perma-stealth, it creates much more gameplay interaction that allows for people to counterplay, and thus allows eve to have more significant strengths. It would be pretty simple to swap her W and passive, but then the active component becomes a bit tricky. Still, a reasonable approach to solve Eve's vision issues.
  3. Rework Eve's kit to function in lane, instead of jungle. This would create a scenario where Eve has to stay in lane to cs, and if she drops off the map, the team can have ample warning to it. Then there are reasonable trade-offs, because if she disappears to roam, she loses cs. She doesn't have enough aoe to waveclear and roam, so this would possibly solve a bit of her issues. *Edit:
  4. Introducing a new ward (such as the mandrake ward) that detects stealth and allows for counterplay of eve's style. This solution is potentially the best, because it allows eve to keep all aspects of her kit. By popular request, I've put it in here.

These solutions aren't perfect, but I think it's important to at least discuss the problem.

Tl;DR The current nerfs prove that Eve will not be allowed to be strong in her current iteration. This is something that is infinitely frustrating for us Eve players, and something that needs to be changed. Eve's current interactions are polarizing and unhealthy, and need to be fixed.

Please upvote and bump if you agree. If you don't, kindly explain your reasoning. Thanks for reading.

130 Comments

Paress18 votes

Eve is nice with Devourer ...

OH WAIT, THIS LITTLE PET JUST REVEALS OUR POSITION.

Koechophe6 votes

{quoted}

Eve is nice with Devourer ...

OH WAIT, THIS LITTLE PET JUST REVEALS OUR POSITION.

Runeglaive is really more of an Eve item than devourer. But I agree, the dog thing is an issue.

Jesus is Savior6 votes

{quoted}

Eve is nice with Devourer ...

OH WAIT, THIS LITTLE PET JUST REVEALS OUR POSITION.

Does this actually happen?

Critmaster Garen15 votes

she was fine for a brief time. then the vision rework happened and pinks became useless to defend yourself against her ganks.

really the most glaring problem with that champ is, that its impossible to ward properly against her. especially when youre behind, and your lane opponent can just zone you from your own pink ward and destroy it as soon as you place it down.

even if you arent, you have to constantly keeep an eye on it and defend it, or he removes it just in a couple of seconds. if eve doesnt just coem around, and they zone you from it and quickly take it out together.

then its back to hugging your turret.

te next poblem is, that you can only ward 1 entrance to your lane, since youre only allowed to place 1 pink ward. if your opponent is smart, he wont even remove that ward. just notify eve where it is, and have her gank through a different path, abusing your false sense of security.

the ONLY change she ever needed is green wards issuing a ping on themselves when she enters their vision area. nothing else. you dont actually need to see her, and pinpoint her location. this would not in any way diminish the value of her invisibility.

just a way to get an alert when shes close like you can ward against every other jungler. THEN her kit can be allowed to be strong enough to 1v1 someone.

CorruptedScythe1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EELIw4LI,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-07-12T09:57:50.897+0000)

she was fine for a brief time. then the vision rework happened and pinks became useless to defend yourself against her ganks.

really the most glaring problem with that champ is, that its impossible to ward properly against her. especially when youre behind, and your lane opponent can just zone you from your own pink ward and destroy it as soon as you place it down.

even if you arent, you have to constantly keeep an eye on it and defend it, or he removes it just in a couple of seconds. if eve doesnt just coem around, and they zone you from it and quickly take it out together.

then its back to hugging your turret.

te next poblem is, that you can only ward 1 entrance to your lane, since youre only allowed to place 1 pink ward. if your opponent is smart, he wont even remove that ward. just notify eve where it is, and have her gank through a different path, abusing your false sense of security.

the ONLY change she ever needed is green wards issuing a ping on themselves when she enters their vision area. nothing else. you dont actually need to see her, and pinpoint her location. this would not in any way diminish the value of her invisibility.

just a way to get an alert when shes close like you can ward against every other jungler. THEN her kit can be allowed to be strong enough to 1v1 someone.

Instead of a "ping," how about something like Rek'Sai's tremor sense while she's within the ward's range? It would allow her to still be stealthy, but it would also keep her passive make her seem "invisible" as compared to any other ganking jungler. What do you think?

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

Instead of a "ping," how about something like Rek'Sai's tremor sense while she's within the ward's range? It would allow her to still be stealthy, but it would also keep her passive make her seem "invisible" as compared to any other ganking jungler. What do you think?

that would require you to watch the area directly the entire time. i dont think even pros can pull that off.

youngjake9314 votes

I have a suggestion. Release the Mandrake Ward which was proposed as a solution to lack of counterplay to stealth.

Adrian Umbra8 votes

If Riot could get their heads out of their asses and actually WORK on the Mandrake Ward, Eve would have a lot more counterplay. On top of that, seeing them nerf both her (again) and the item that made her powerful (again) reminds me enough of the WW debacle that I'm losing faith in Riot's balance team when it comes to Eve. Again.

Kneejerk reaction nerfs are NOT the way to handle this champion and Riot should know from her long history of being kneejerk reaction nerfed that this hasn't changed. And once again, tiny buffs don't make up for pretty considerable nerfs. I wish they stopped thinking they did.

As for the proposed changes, Eve used to have an ability that gave her stealth (as someone who played old Eve). It wasn't a good system, and they'd need to give her something pretty hefty to make up for it. Ward hopping removal would mean she'd need some pretty hefty compensatory buffs, which I'm not entirely sure they'd provide and take away her schtick, something I'm not entirely sure I'd like to see. And as for making her work in lane, that's mostly a result of the E changes and number changes to her Q and ult. She USED to be a very respectable midlaner before Riot decided to drop a nuke on her "until they had time to fix her."

Nightshade32266 votes

If Blizzard and Valve can balance multiple characters with permanent or semi-permanent stealth, I see no reason Riot can't do one character.

Except for them simply being lazy.

That's my opinion.

Zenthon Prime3 votes

Valve doesn't "balance". They just buff the hell out of everything and hope it works (and in a game like Dota, it works surprisingly well). Oh, and Riki (the Dota equivalent of Eve) is one of the most hated heroes in Dota. That isn't what we should be going for.

Blizzard's stealth works differently and the context in which its used is also unlike League. For one, there's a constant blur and damage reveals them instantly. Wards and the standard laning phase also don't exist, nor does a typical jungle role. However, I'll admit that this form of stealth may work for Eve.

Mainly though we need the Mandrake Ward. Badly.

Lugg5 votes

Eve is fine. Her passive alone makes her extremely strong. Not being seen by regular wards allows her to counterjungle at will and set the enemy jungler behind. Plus she can gank lanes at level 2 quite easily. You don't need any burst at that level because everyone is squishy 2v1 that early. You are at least guaranteed to get their flash down, so they have to stay near tower and miss CS or risk dying.

The fear of not knowing where she is makes her an effective champion. Also, she is very tanky for an assassin. Not sure why you think she is so squishy.

Koechophe1 votes

{quoted}

Eve is fine. Her passive alone makes her extremely strong. Not being seen by regular wards allows her to counterjungle at will and set the enemy jungler behind. Plus she can gank lanes at level 2 quite easily. You don't need any burst at that level because everyone is squishy 2v1 that early. You are at least guaranteed to get their flash down, so they have to stay near tower and miss CS or risk dying.

The fear of not knowing where she is makes her an effective champion. Also, she is very tanky for an assassin. Not sure why you think she is so squishy.

That's the problem; her stealth is so powerful that every other part of her kit must be weak, making it so that she teeters the line of being either so effective that everyone lives in fear of her or so ineffective that everyone ignores her. The problem is this; in order for stealth to be effective, the champion _using _ stealth must also be effective. But it's a strong enough advantage that if the champion using stealth was numerically strong, it'd be broken. It creates a feedback loop where there's no real ideal state of balance.

Lugg1 votes

Her kit isn't weak. She can do her job quite effectively.

allsop2 votes

{quoted}

Eve is fine. Her passive alone makes her extremely strong. Not being seen by regular wards allows her to counterjungle at will and set the enemy jungler behind. Plus she can gank lanes at level 2 quite easily. You don't need any burst at that level because everyone is squishy 2v1 that early. You are at least guaranteed to get their flash down, so they have to stay near tower and miss CS or risk dying.

The fear of not knowing where she is makes her an effective champion. Also, she is very tanky for an assassin. Not sure why you think she is so squishy.

Finally a smart person

NapaIm5 votes

See, I like the way Heroes of the Storm does stealth. Its like Halo, where they cloak, but there is a shimmer when they walk. Allies being watchful can see ""Oh hey there is a shimmer approaching our lane, better fall back." It gives people an idea where she is, while allowing her to dodge wards.

Koechophe2 votes

That wouldn't accomplish anything. Eve's ward dodging is what makes her problematic.

Support Evelynn3 votes

What I don't get about the nerfs is that they're already heavily nerfing her itemization. Runeglaive no longer making her E magic damage, no more AoE on runeglaive, Rylai's likely being fixed from 40% slow, etc... I feel these Q nerfs are very heavy handed and need to be reduced. If they're not she'll drop to the low 40s in terms of winrate.

Sire Hippington2 votes

I said it when she first was nerfed and i asy it once again: That passive needs to be spotted by wards! maybe on the same range as champs see her, so she still has it easier to sneak around wards if she knows where they were placed.

By removing her perma-invisbillity and with that the massive map-presure she created by her mere existance, she can actually be allowed to have a strong and statisfying kit besides the passive.

Father Cthulhu2 votes

I've said this a million times on the boards, but she she be changed like Twitch was way back when. Remove her perma stealth and put it as an ability like twitches q, maybe longer, so they have room for more power in her kit else wear.

Support Evelynn5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir Galifrey,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EELIw4LI,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2015-07-12T16:14:30.772+0000)

I've said this a million times on the boards, but she she be changed like Twitch was way back when. Remove her perma stealth and put it as an ability like twitches q, maybe longer, so they have room for more power in her kit else wear.

Except no one who mains Eve wants that. It ruins the stalking feel of her kit.

Father Cthulhu2 votes

Except her kit is inherently bad compared to everybody else. She's not an assassin like she used to be (thanks riot), she's more like an ap brawler that focuses on dps. And it doesn't really work well.

Rinky Dinky1 votes

Then you choose to have her be an awful champion.

It's getting pretty obvious you can't have both

DynamiteGazelle1 votes

She's currently sitting around a 51% win rate and is for all intents and purposes well balanced. I wouldn't call her an awful champion by any stretch

Rinky Dinky1 votes

That has nothing to do with what I just said.

She is being gutted on pbe.

She might be fine now, but she will not be in a week.

In fact, she will be pre rework useless again.

DynamiteGazelle1 votes

Yeah I don't agree with the nerfs. Im talking about live

DynamiteGazelle1 votes

Yeah the only people who want Eve's kit to change are the people who don't really play her :P I personally love her kit and think she's in a pretty good spot nowadays

Koechophe1 votes

Right. She's fine now. Which is why she's being nerfed. As I said in the topic post, she will never be allowed to be strong.

Cindikle2 votes

Biggest problem with Eve is that she has a lot of ganking power early game.

Make her passive have a larger radius at earlier levels. Not so large you're at the fog of war level. But enough that's there is just a bit more warning.

RainbowIcee2 votes

She doesn't do much damage though, given her surprise attack is surprising and though she doesn't hurt much the extra damage helps the other team a lot however With champions like Braum, leona and Tahm Kench evelynn is in serious shit unless she get's fed if she doesn't she's a goner especially if people are smart enough to buy pinks and immediately attack her once they see her. Junglers like Xin zhao cause a lot more serious trouble through out the game than evelynn ( again unless she's fed ) but if xin zhao get's fed lordy knows who can save you.

DynamiteGazelle1 votes

That's the entire point of playing Evelynn though. The early gank pressure. She starts falling off literally after early game, and her late game is mostly worthless unless you go damage, and if you do go damage then you are squishier than an adc and have to fight in melee range.

Early ganks are her ONLY strength. But, if you get you lanes rolling (and you can) then they will carry you home. In a way, Eve is kind of a utility/support jungler in that your goal is to feed others, not get fed yourself.

Cindikle1 votes

The pressure would still be there. That wouldn't change as much.

Her pressure is that normal wards do nothing vs her. You do not know when she is coming unless you put a pink down. Which she will check every bush as she comes in and will take it out. It costs you 100g every time you stop her ganks, if you stop them.

This change would make it easier to react to her earlier in the game. We're not talking a huge increase. Something like an extra 100 units early game. A lot of her ganking patterns don't even revolver around her current range. She often goes into bushes that you think would be safe to find out they are not. Pro's do this all the time. They don't gank bot from the river. They do it from bottom bush. Because unless they have a pink in that bush they have zero chance of knowing they're there.

Mayor Stubbs2 votes

I've played a lot of eve since release, and you're right about one thing - She either is a top tier (lacking counterplay) pick or a bottom tier shit. And that's because she's so hard to balance (Mostly due to her stealth).

I think the only realistic option out of your suggestions is #2, and I have a feeling riot doesn't want to take that route because it would take away from her identity.

I don't think nerfing or buffing her will find true balance for eve, only make her too strong or too weak. Leaving another rework as the only option, and even then stealth champs are not easy to balance at all.

Abyssphere2 votes

I feel like changing the stealth detection radius from a constant 700 to 850 / 750 / 650 / 550 scaling with rank in her ult would help a bit. She still has a lot of core issues with her stealth but at least her early pressure is relieved due to her being spotted quite a bit quicker.

Cloud Potato2 votes

To me, the issue with Eve is not just her stealth. If you removed her stealth, what does the rest of her kit look like? A Q that auto targets people, a W that speeds you up, an E that powers up your next basic attack, and an R which is an instant AoE nuke. Eve's kit lacks counterplay.

Why is she oppressive if strong? Not just because she can appear behind you at any time, but also because her damage is unavoidable. A champion with high unavoidable damage is bad for the game. That's why her Q damage gets nerfed every time, because the way to deal with unavoidable damage is to lower it to the point where it's pathetic compared to avoidable damage. Your suggestion to make her a laner would not fix her, because she suffers from the 'Fighter Problem' and would not ever be healthy there.-

DynamiteGazelle2 votes

Lol. Just no.

Eve is a squishy melee-range champion. You think there's no counterplay to that?

Cloud Potato1 votes

If you're fighting against a squishy melee-range champion, no. That's the 'Fighter Problem'.

DynamiteGazelle1 votes

A squishy melee-range champion like who? Yasuo? Tryndamere? Both of those champions will destroy Eve. She's not made to duel, she is a very team-reliant champion

Cloud Potato1 votes

That's the point. If she could survive in a solo lane, she would win automatically because her damage is unavoidable unless you have some ranged ability and never actually fight her.

Koechophe1 votes

No damage is truly "unavoidable". ADC are all based on auto attacks, and they can't be dodged. But it doesn't break them as a class, because there's other ways to play around it. Almost every melee fighter champ has little to no skill shots (Renekton, volibear, etc), but there's still plenty of counterplay.

Widder881 votes
  1. Evelynn is allowed to be strong, but only for people who can actually play her and not for the mainstream.

  2. Evelynn was nerfed many times, but buffed many times as well. In 5.13 she is in a strong state. -base armor was buffed -stealth timer was buffed -Q AP ratio was buffed to 55% -Q AD ratio was buffed to 70% -W CD is lowered by spellhits now -E was buffed by applying on hit effects -R shield is gained instantly now

  3. Evelynn is overall strong in this patch and played as bruiser-tank-support in the LCS, what is not her role. Her Q base damage will be nerfed again because of this, because it doesn't make sense that an assassin is viable without buying damage items. Will this kill assassin Eve? No.

  4. Stealth is her identity and can't be changed.

  5. Eves kit works in lane, but only if you can actually play her. It doesn't work for the mainstream.

Koechophe1 votes

You talk about "the mainstream" a lot, and how it differs from the "high level play" you seem to be a part of. But interestingly, Eve's win rates are consistent between all levels of ranked, from bronze to master. And the "buffs" you're referring to were also actually nerfs, because the ratio was buffed to scale up to 55%, and because the base damage was cut by 30 points (which is huge on a spell with only 120 base damage). The W cd was lowered, yes, because they removed the stacking movespeed on hit bonus it used to have. E now applies on hit effects, yes, but no longer applies spell effects. And buffing her stealth timer is nice, but doesn't actually add a whole lot.

Her kit doesn't work in lane. You'd be stupid to try it over other laners who can roam just as effectively. And assassin Eve is going to be crippled massively by the runeglaive nerfs. Reducing base damage from spells hurts any role she plays.

You've set the tone of "I understand better because I'm a high leveled player, so you're all wrong." This is not productive. You can't just say "she's only weak in the mainstream" and justify the nerfs in that sense. Every time she approaches viability, she is nerfed. This is a serious problem that needs to be addressed.

Widder881 votes

I am not a high level player. I am just a normal player, who mains Evelynn.

Q base damage was nerfed by 30 then buffed by 10, and will be nerfed by 20 soon. This means you need 300/200/400 AP to compensate. It is a late game buff for AP Eve in any case, and 200 AP is easy to get atm.

W change is a buff, if you have 40% CDR. 40% CDR is the most important stat for Eve anyway. But only few people know it.

That E applys on hit effects is a huge buff. Because of arcane blade it has now a 110% AP ratio, and it applys sheen in addition.

I had my best Evelynn games in mid lane. When I try an other mid laner I suck most of the time.

Runeglaive nerf is not a big deal. It is still like a Lich bane for free. Magus was great for Eve, but Runeglaive is even better.

If you buy 700 AP, Q does 100+700*0,55 = 485. 20 damage is only 4% of that damage. It will suck in the mid game, but tank Eve is hit much harder. If you don't buy any damage it is a nerf by 20%.

I hate it when Evelynn is build as a tank in the LCS. It is so stupid, that I can understand that Riot wants to nerf it. I wish they would buff the AP/AD scaling again, but they probably think assassin Eve is strong enough. Maybe they are right. But if Eve is too weak, she will be buffed, like earlier this year.

And it is not a problem for me, that tank Eve gets nerfed, when she is viable in LCS, because Evelynn is an assassin. As long as Riot cares for Assassin Eve it is ok. So I don't like it that there is no compensation buff for assassin Eve, but maybe it is not necessary.

Koechophe1 votes

I'm just not even going to go there on most of your comments. The fact that you calculated using 700 AP as if that was reasonable, and the fact that you stated that having 40% cdr on Eve is a must shows that you don't really understand how to play Eve very well.

Widder881 votes

If you would use 700 AP and 40% CDR you would not have to make such threads.

Do the math, look at her Q and E AP scaling and the base damage, look what CDR does with her Q and W, think about her stealth.

Just 2 additional indicators:

Koechophe1 votes

{quoted}

If you would use 700 AP and 40% CDR you would not have to make such threads.

Do the math, look at her Q and E AP scaling and the base damage, look what CDR does with her Q and W, think about her stealth.

Just 2 additional indicators:

Runeglaive and ionian still only equates to 25% cdr, not 40, and nowhere in the build is 40% achieved. CDR is a stat you build when you want to be more effective over time, such as a support or poke champion. The CDR she builds is more coincidental; Ionian are built because she has mixed damage and MPEN is inefficient, and the cdr from runeglaive is not the reason she builds it. Straight AP is the stat you build when you want to burst. Oh, and your build also doesn't even come close to 700 ap. 50 ap + 80 ap + 120 ap + 100 ap + 35% = 472. That's more than 200 ap short, and this is a six item build.

Caculations based on unrealistic stats do nothing, besides the fact that you're missing the whole point of the thread. You are arguing that Eve is strong; this is something I don't disagree with. But she will not be allowed to be strong, because her mechanic is broken. This thread is meant to discuss that broken mechanic, not calculations on DPS that objectively don't matter to the point.

Widder881 votes

{quoted}

Runeglaive and ionian still only equates to 25% cdr, not 40, and nowhere in the build is 40% achieved.

You don't know which runes and masteries are used. I use only Runeglaive+Ionian boots as CDR items too, but I get 15% additional CDR from runes and masteries. CDR-boots indicate the value of CDR.

CDR is a stat you build when you want to be more effective over time, such as a support or poke champion.

Her Q has a 1.5 s CD. 0.9 s with 40% CDR. That is an increase in DPS of 67%. Because of the already low base CD, this increase of DPS matters in a short assassination scenario.

And her W is almost always up with 40% CDR, because not only the W CD itself is reduced but the new reduction mechanic by spellhits is accelerated too by the lower CD of the other spells.

The CDR she builds is more coincidental; Ionian are built because she has mixed damage and MPEN is inefficient

Runeglaive converts 1 E strike into magic damage and is magic damage itself. AP Eve does 6/7 magic damage at the moment, so MPen is good at the moment. But Ionian boots are still better than Sorcerers. If you have 40% CDR instead of 25%, that is an increase of Q DPS of 25%. Sorcerer shoes only increase the Q DPS by 15% at 15 enemy MR, 10% at 50 enemy MR.

and the cdr from runeglaive is not the reason she builds it.

There is not only one reason for the item. Sheen is very good, but without the AP and CDR it would be a very bad item.

Oh, and your build also doesn't even come close to 700 ap. 50 ap + 80 ap + 120 ap + 100 ap + 35% = 472. That's more than 200 ap short, and this is a six item build.

472 is still more AP than required to have stronger Q than in 4.13. You don't consider AP from runes and masteries. 650 AP + 25 Bonus AD has the same effect for compensation the Q base damage nerf as 700 AP. But I would buy a AP item instead of GA, thats right. But the build is still close to my build.

Caculations based on unrealistic stats do nothing

If I get to late game I will have 600-750 AP + 50-90 Bonus AD on Eve, that is for sure, not unrealistic.

besides the fact that you're missing the whole point of the thread. You are arguing that Eve is strong; this is something I don't disagree with. But she will not be allowed to be strong, because her mechanic is broken. This thread is meant to discuss that broken mechanic, not calculations on DPS that objectively don't matter to the point.

Every champion is broken. And what means strong? She has 52.x % win rate right now, but can we request more than 50%? I have 62% win rate with her this season. It will by still way above 50% after the nerf. Combined with the item changed, I am not even sure if it is a nerf overall. So Eve is allowed to be strong for me. But you want to kill her mechanic, because she is not allowed to be strong for casual Eve players. Should a stealth champion like her have a high pick rate? I think it is ok that she is something special. I don't like nerfs, but I rather have nerfs than a kill of her mechanic. But maybe we can agree on this: If her overall win rate falls below 50%, her Q ratios should be buffed.

Diananmen Square1 votes

They should swap her passive with her W to remove her toxicity in the kit. Something like this:

Passive: Damaging an enemy with an ability increases Evelynn's movement speed by X% for 2/3/4/5 seconds (At levels 1/6/11/16). (Y cooldown).

W: Evelynn charges up for 1.5 seconds (increased to 4 if taking damage), and after the charge-up she goes into stealth for 3/3.75/4.5/5.25/6 seconds. Nearby enemies will have vision of Evelynn regardless.

Abyssphere2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Exotic Tuna Can,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EELIw4LI,comment-id=0018,timestamp=2015-07-12T22:39:40.423+0000)

They should swap her passive with her W to remove her toxicity in the kit. Something like this:

Passive: Damaging an enemy with an ability increases Evelynn's movement speed by X% for 2/3/4/5 seconds (At levels 1/6/11/16). (Y cooldown).

W: Evelynn charges up for 1.5 seconds (increased to 4 if taking damage), and after the charge-up she goes into stealth for 3/3.75/4.5/5.25/6 seconds. Nearby enemies will have vision of Evelynn regardless.

I don't really get the point of the new W. Her current passive is poor in actual combat but good for avoiding wards and flanking. With such a short duration and with her still revealed when she gets close enough to people, her new stealth is both useless for being difficult to track and useless in combat. Compare that stealth to Twitch's stealth, for example, to see how underpowered it is.

I can't think of a single thing it'd be useful for.

Diananmen Square1 votes

It's an example. If it was to need tweaking/buffing it would be applied sooner or later.

And stealth isn't to be used in combat actually. That's why so many stealths have a delay. Except for Shaco, because fuck Shaco.

Abyssphere3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Exotic Tuna Can,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EELIw4LI,comment-id=001800000000,timestamp=2015-07-13T00:39:09.458+0000)

It's an example. If it was to need tweaking/buffing it would be applied sooner or later.

And stealth isn't to be used in combat actually. That's why so many stealths have a delay. Except for Shaco, because fuck Shaco.

But it's not like the numbers are the problem with it on a small scale. Your concept is "Evelynn gains a very short duration of stealth on an active, but can still be seen when she gets close to people". The very concept of that ability is pointless because it has no actual use. Her passive right now is ONLY useful because she can be stealthed for long durations of time and can control where she is in the downtime, because her becoming visible when she gets close to people means she cannot surprise people in combat like a Rengar can. Your ability gives her stealth but it's useless stealth, there's literally nothing it helps her achieve. You just ward a little bit further from your lane and you'll see her before she stealths, she can't sneak into bot and top lane through clever bush use anymore, and generally having any sort of ward thrown around the map gives you a very decent chance of picking up her location.

That alone isn't a problem, after all the main reason Evelynn is so difficult to balance is BECAUSE she's so hard to track around the map and it's so difficult to adequately prepare for her ganks. But Shadow Walk as it is on live is only useful because it gives her that strength. It's terrible stealth only made good by its potentially infinite duration. You've removed all of its strengths but kept the many weaknesses that Eve becoming visible within a certain range provides it (i.e. she can't burst from stealth like a Rengar or Twitch and she can't reposition like a Vayne).

Because your rework doesn't change the mechanics of her stealth or give it a healthier use than what it currently has, you either completely gut her by removing the only strength she has as a champion (i.e. if the stealth duration is short enough that she's easily found with wards, she's now terrible, because that's all she can do) or you don't fix anything (the stealth duration is long enough that she can't get picked up by wards and her ganks are impossible to prepare for, in which case she's still toxic). At that stage, why even bother reworking her stealth? She doesn't need shorter stealth because what she's doing is still unhealthy and one number makes her toxic while the other just makes her terrible. She needs her stealth changed properly so that it's possible for her to use it for something that doesn't warp the game around her. Making her stealth outright bad is not the way to fix her.

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