Sona. It's time to make her good again.

only zhule··8 votes·846 views

So been playing a lot of Sona recently and WOW she is weak through the entire game. Early your heal is so mana hungry 80 mana at rank 1 to heal for 30 health... yes i am aware it heals two targets but that still means on base numbers you spend more mana then you restore points of health. Even if you factor in the bonus healing that requires both targets to be around 50% health until you finally tip the scale in cost vs health restored. "But it gives a shield as well" Yeah this would be great if it weren't for 2 things. 1) the shield only last 1.5 seconds, meaning its very easy for the shield to fall off between attacks; and 2) you have to be so insanely close to land the shield thus meaning that to get full benefit of your ability you have to be rubbing cheeks with your ally while they (or you) are getting engaged on. This probably wouldn't be an issue on tanky champions who are designed to take a few hits, but on the paper doll that is Sona this likely means that you are highly risking giving a double in the small hopes you can save your ally. Perhaps we could do something like lower the base cast of her heal, or buff base amount healed (buff the % healed vs the % missing), lower the cooldown so that you can maybe land a bonus heal every now and then, allow for the shield to be able to double trigger on the ally healed, or my favorite BUFF HER AURA RANGE. For this last one it's kind of a thing for all her abilities, i know they want to avoid her old problem of standing way out of combat and still having a huge effect, but her current aura ranges are painfully bad. You already removed the passive bonuses, why not at least give her half decent aura range (like say 500) so she can help her allies while having some small amount of safety BUT not so much safety she can't be touched.

Now let's talk about her offensive power and her burst. Even in the early game it's really not all that impressive. Sure her landing a full combo on you looks amazing (AA + 18 damage from powercord + 40 from Q + 20 from empowered AA.) Now factor in resistances, This looks super impressive until you start noticing that once she blows her burst hit she's not going to have any follow up for a while. Even a regular Q+AA isn't all that impressive and really won't do much to push an enemy back unless they were already super low. Basically it comes down to an issue where she's kind of strong level one, most opponent will get their counter skill by level 2, and she's ok level 3.... After that she falls off hard. Her mana costs and cooldowns prevent her from building up a powercord charge, and since they lowered the bonus damage that powercord does (use to be 100% bonus now it's 40%) it's often not worth building the charge unless your plan to use it in the near future. When you look at her offensive power it's also much lower. While the added magic damage sounds nice it's really not all that much bonus damage, and when you compare it to the old +4x(rank lvl) flat bonus to AD and AP you notice that the old way the skill worked usually ended up with a much higher level of bonus damage then this new one. To add to that her empowered AA doesn't trigger on towers so you can't even choose her as a good tower push support. It's one thing to have AP mages in mid who's power is somewhat limited by needing mana regen and CDR, but a support character should not have their utility gated behind a gold wall.

I see a lot of people comment that she has "so much power in the late game" i would argue that she isn't actually all that strong. Her power comes mostly from the fact that she is often built like an AP carry mage (because her base utility numbers aren't great so you need a lot of AP to make them hold up). So players are left with this warped impression that Sona is strong because she can do a lot of burst. Take basically any of the mage support champions and give then 400+ AP and a lich bane. It's amazing how much damage they can put out when you build them with a ton of AP and then hand them a lich bane. If you don't build Sona with damage and instead focus on strictly "support" items, she really doesn't bring much to a team. Her heal is still weak at rank 5, without a lot of AP her shield won't absorb the kind of hits you need it to to help your allies. Even her unique team movement speed buff isn't all that impressive when you compare it to something like item 3069 or item 3800 or Sivir's ultimate.

The other big issue is not so much with Sona or her kit, it's that the item she is most incentivized to get is item 3303 . This item is a huge mess, there is basically no reason to upgrade it (since it gives you a wooping 5 AP and 25% base mana regen) so you are often left holding this very sub par item until you finish your core. To give a comparison, imagine any other role and them being 25-30 mins into the game and still rocking their item 1055 , item 1056 , or item 1054 . Even when you look at the end game for this item it's really unimpressive compared to the movement speed bonus that Talisman give or the shield that Face of the mountain offers (i could also get into how broken the healing is of the relic shield line but that can wail.

For those who disagree let me ask you this, which character(s) or type of character would you say Sona is good against? Which ADC or support do you pick and just groan because your opponent is running Sona?

27 Comments

Wofye3 votes

There is no reason to pick Sona when you can pick brand support, Sona isn't up to par at all with other supports for any reason at all.

Miraweave2 votes

Sona's totally fine. This isn't really a meta that poke supports are good in, but I suspect that will change with the marksman update bringing earlygame carries back.

only zhule2 votes

[{quoted}](name=ME AM SMART,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EE0rZdfw,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-09-28T23:13:44.935+0000)

Sona's totally fine. This isn't really a meta that poke supports are good in, but I suspect that will change with the marksman update bringing earlygame carries back.

You might be right, but damn if the tank meta shift in support didn't make her WAY harder to play (along with her hobbled damage output). Poke is what she was good at, now poke is basically a joke.

Miraweave2 votes

[{quoted}](name=only zhule,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EE0rZdfw,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-09-28T23:21:11.997+0000)

You might be right, but damn if the tank meta shift in support didn't make her WAY harder to play (along with her hobbled damage output). Poke is what she was good at, now poke is basically a joke.

Yeah, and other supports who fill the same role are also struggling. If you buff a champion to the point where they're strong in a meta that they should theoretically be bad in, imagine what would suddenly happen when the meta shifts to a meta that favors them?

Sona doesn't need buffs. The meta will change eventually, and she's incredibly good at what she's good at.

only zhule2 votes

[{quoted}](name=ME AM SMART,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EE0rZdfw,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2015-09-28T23:31:01.926+0000)

Yeah, and other supports who fill the same role are also struggling. If you buff a champion to the point where they're strong in a meta that they should theoretically be bad in, imagine what would suddenly happen when the meta shifts to a meta that favors them?

Sona doesn't need buffs. The meta will change eventually, and she's incredibly good at what she's good at.

The question is when does the meta shift, and/or how long do you wait for a meta shift before you say "fuck it" and buff a champion to be viable in a meta they should be so-so in. Like i'll wait a fair amount of time but at sometime soon the meta has to change or they need to make utility supports stronger (not really wanting to wait 2+ years before they finally decide it's not just a fad).

There is also the issue that she doesn't really hold up well when compared to the other mage supports. No CC till level 6, bad base heals, the movement speed buff is a throw away skill in the early and mid game, and her damage doesn't really scare people anymore.

Miraweave1 votes

[{quoted}](name=only zhule,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EE0rZdfw,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2015-09-28T23:36:18.426+0000)

The question is when does the meta shift, and/or how long do you wait for a meta shift before you say "fuck it" and buff a champion to be viable in a meta they should be so-so in. Like i'll wait a fair amount of time but at sometime soon the meta has to change or they need to make utility supports stronger (not really wanting to wait 2+ years before they finally decide it's not just a fad).

There is also the issue that she doesn't really hold up well when compared to the other mage supports. No CC till level 6, bad base heals, the movement speed buff is a throw away skill in the early and mid game, and her damage doesn't really scare people anymore.

Her heal is bad at rank one, yeah. They could probably partially revert the nerf.

But seriously, as someone who played sona extensively before and after the nerf, she was fucking overpowered.

only zhule1 votes

[{quoted}](name=ME AM SMART,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EE0rZdfw,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2015-09-29T00:08:59.059+0000)

Her heal is bad at rank one, yeah. They could probably partially revert the nerf.

But seriously, as someone who played sona extensively before and after the nerf, she was fucking overpowered.

honestly i think that's all she really needs a revert back to 50% bonus on her Q powercord and a revert back to slightly higher base healing and 1% bonus per 1% missing (decreasing the cost to like 60 at rank one but increase the cost by 10 per rank (currently 5) so at rank 5 it's still 100 mana.)

Miraweave1 votes

[{quoted}](name=only zhule,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EE0rZdfw,comment-id=000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-09-29T01:04:13.445+0000)

honestly i think that's all she really needs a revert back to 50% bonus on her Q powercord and a revert back to slightly higher base healing and 1% bonus per 1% missing (decreasing the cost to like 60 at rank one but increase the cost by 10 per rank (currently 5) so at rank 5 it's still 100 mana.)

Oh god no. Do not buff her damage. She still does an absolutely massive amount of damage and that's after the nerfs. Increasing the healing that way is also probably a bad idea (remember how incredibly powerful that ability was at higher ranks with some AP behind it?

Increase the base value on her rank one heal a bit, or decrease it's mana cost. That's really all you can do without breaking her.

only zhule1 votes

[{quoted}](name=ME AM SMART,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EE0rZdfw,comment-id=0001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-09-29T15:25:24.183+0000)

Oh god no. Do not buff her damage. She still does an absolutely massive amount of damage and that's after the nerfs. Increasing the healing that way is also probably a bad idea (remember how incredibly powerful that ability was at higher ranks with some AP behind it?

Increase the base value on her rank one heal a bit, or decrease it's mana cost. That's really all you can do without breaking her.

i disagree, i do not think that a boost of like 20-60 damage on a Q empowered powercord would make her to insanely strong. Again while her passive does some half decent bonus damage, her kit is not all that damage heavy. If you built someone like Soraka, the way that a lot of people build AP Sona you would likely be seeing similar or greater numbers.

As for her heal you might be right it's kind of in a weird place where at the start of game it's trash but it's not half bad late game (would be nice to have a little more power behind it though, especially if you are going to have to spam it to keep allies alive)

Miraweave1 votes

[{quoted}](name=only zhule,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EE0rZdfw,comment-id=00010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-09-29T16:26:26.868+0000)

i disagree, i do not think that a boost of like 20-60 damage on a Q empowered powercord would make her to insanely strong. Again while her passive does some half decent bonus damage, her kit is not all that damage heavy. If you built someone like Soraka, the way that a lot of people build AP Sona you would likely be seeing similar or greater numbers.

It really would. Soraka's damage ratios are much lower than Sona's, and her damage is avoidable.

Seriously, she already does a ton of damage. She absolutely does not need more.

As for her heal you might be right it's kind of in a weird place where at the start of game it's trash but it's not half bad late game (would be nice to have a little more power behind it though, especially if you are going to have to spam it to keep allies alive)

Rozzeta3 votes

The Tanky support meta started in Season 4. Hasn't really gone away yet.

RedCyclone2 votes

Tank meta isn't going anywhere, Riot just will not stop letting tank supports dominate, 2 damn years of mostly tank supports Face it, the support meta is not going to change anytime soon because they have so much bias over tank supports with every other support claimed antifun or some toxic shit, even though tank supports are a major offender when you consider oppression

SongofStorm1 votes

Ima reply to the title not to this story lel........ she is still op her q poke will always be broken

only zhule2 votes

{quoted}

Ima reply to the title not to this story lel........ she is still op her q poke will always be broken

Why do you feel her poke is broken?

SongofStorm1 votes

instead of building as a support build straight AP and magic pen and then you will understand... If she can get me out of bronze in 3 days from B5 then yes.. but now I'm B3 :|

Maximum Morde1 votes

The first rule of Sona is we don't talk about Sona or Riot will nerf her. The second rule of Sona is we don't talk about Sona or Riot will nerf her.

Aeolian Melodies1 votes

Early game is the least of her issues. Her laning phase is very strong with her bullying potential.

Her winrate actually drops as the game length increases and leveling up her E is a major part of it imo.

One.

Fucking.

Percent.

MS.

Per.

Rank.

FFS.

item 3070 Sona item 3070

only zhule1 votes

I would disagree. She has a few champions that she works well with bully wise Jinx being a great example. But i just don't feel she has the damage to be a bully (on her own) anymore.

Aeolian Melodies1 votes

[{quoted}](name=only zhule,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EE0rZdfw,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2015-09-29T01:07:06.508+0000)

I would disagree. She has a few champions that she works well with bully wise Jinx being a great example. But i just don't feel she has the damage to be a bully (on her own) anymore.

She does, just not on the tank supports everyone and their mothers plays atm.

Face another squishy support lane and you don't need your ally to be competent to zone.

only zhule1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Aeolian Melodies,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EE0rZdfw,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2015-09-29T12:14:37.096+0000)

She does, just not on the tank supports everyone and their mothers plays atm.

Face another squishy support lane and you don't need your ally to be competent to zone.

Yeah a lot of my issue is based around the fact that the tank meta in support has been going on so long (season 4) and most squishy supports are really bad in it.

Miraweave1 votes

[{quoted}](name=only zhule,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EE0rZdfw,comment-id=0005000000000000,timestamp=2015-09-29T16:20:30.901+0000)

Yeah a lot of my issue is based around the fact that the tank meta in support has been going on so long (season 4) and most squishy supports are really bad in it.

It feels like that because Thresh has always been good. There was a pretty damn long period of time where Morg/Nami were top tier.

ThePurpleKnight1 votes

I agree with you on the heal and maybe the speed buff, both are pretty shit which makes the overall champion shit. Her auras are also too small.

As for her Q damage, it's fine, it goes up and down in strength and by late game you half health targets with 1 Q + Auto.

Sona is extremely good with Miss Fortune, and even stronger against Miss Fortune.

Talisman of Ascension offers no combat stats, it's got a bad amount of hp and mana regen and then 20% CDR. All for the extremely high cost of 2200 gold. The movement speed buff isn't worth it. In comparison I think the Knife is way strong, it's active is a little underwhelming and it doesn't have enough AP but at least it's gold gain is decent or almost decent.

only zhule2 votes

I keep seeing people comment about her doing this insane damage in the late game (20-30% max health) off one combo. I don't know who you are playing against or what items you are building but i never find myself doing that level of damage unless the game goes long enough for me to be chucking item 2049 for a 5th AP item IE: "rocking out with 700+ AP".

That aside i will admit her damage isn't god awful but it's no where near where it use to be which is an issue when you are trying to scare a tank character out of lane.

You are right Talisman doesn't offer combat stats but the utility it offers really outstrips the combat power of Frost queen. Plus given how weak (health and armor wise) Sona is it's usually much more helpful to give your entire team a big speed boost then it is to try and front line it long enough to try and land the slow.

Aeolian Melodies1 votes

[{quoted}](name=only zhule,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EE0rZdfw,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2015-09-29T04:26:53.209+0000)

I keep seeing people comment about her doing this insane damage in the late game (20-30% max health) off one combo. I don't know who you are playing against or what items you are building but i never find myself doing that level of damage unless the game goes long enough for me to be chucking item 2049 for a 5th AP item IE: "rocking out with 700+ AP".

That aside i will admit her damage isn't god awful but it's no where near where it use to be which is an issue when you are trying to scare a tank character out of lane.

You are right Talisman doesn't offer combat stats but the utility it offers really outstrips the combat power of Frost queen. Plus given how weak (health and armor wise) Sona is it's usually much more helpful to give your entire team a big speed boost then it is to try and front line it long enough to try and land the slow.

They're playing Lichbane AP burst Sona. And they're right, if you build her like that, she can act almost as an assassin. A couple of weeks ago I played a 4v5 and we almost won because I built Lich to become a threat. Chunked a third of Nid's hp bar with Q + Lich Staccato and killed her while she was chasing me and not expecting the dmg, was pretty funny.

I play her support but I tend to build supportish AP items on her. I find that her heal and her speed buff really benefit from AP and it makes them stay relevant at later stages of the game.

Sona's early game dmg is more than fine and the LAST thing I want them to touch if they ever want to buff her. Touch that and you'll push her over the edge and people will be crying for nerfs and she'll be a lot worse than she is now once Riot is through with her.

only zhule1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Aeolian Melodies,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EE0rZdfw,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2015-09-29T12:20:10.900+0000)

They're playing Lichbane AP burst Sona. And they're right, if you build her like that, she can act almost as an assassin. A couple of weeks ago I played a 4v5 and we almost won because I built Lich to become a threat. Chunked a third of Nid's hp bar with Q + Lich Staccato and killed her while she was chasing me and not expecting the dmg, was pretty funny.

I play her support but I tend to build supportish AP items on her. I find that her heal and her speed buff really benefit from AP and it makes them stay relevant at later stages of the game.

Sona's early game dmg is more than fine and the LAST thing I want them to touch if they ever want to buff her. Touch that and you'll push her over the edge and people will be crying for nerfs and she'll be a lot worse than she is now once Riot is through with her.

Two things.

  1. yeah lich bane does an ok job of hurting a squishy character assuming they don't build mage resist, the problem is that Sona doesn't really have any follow up so you might pick someone off but you will rarely be able to beat someone/ scare them off if they have any kind of engage/gap closer and are at half decent life.

  2. "I play her support but I tend to build supportish AP items on her. I find that her heal and her speed buff really benefit from AP and it makes them stay relevant at later stages of the game." The problem with her utility is that it's pretty garbage if you don't build AP, so then her damage looks amazing because you need 200+ AP to keep your utility in the late game.

The Yetii Rider1 votes
  1. Poke supports will never be good. Poke supports are, in theory, a lane counter to all-in supports, but the counter to a poke team comp is hard engage, which Thresh, Leona, and Tahm Kench do very well, and Braum is alright at it with a Glory.

Poking in lane doesn't help. Doran's gives lifesteal, and Relic Shield heals off anything else. Even though Tahm Kench is an all-in melee support he has an ability that makes him resist poke, but that's just like Riot saying that the counter to Leona is poking her down then giving FotM a heal and insanely slot efficient stats.

There is no meta poke supports can be good in. They lose the game against those they win lane in, because you can't poke a team that jumps on you in response.

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