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"Yasuo shouldn't have Wind Wall in his kit because carries shouldn't have defensive utility skills"

FalconPawwwwnch··117 votes·6,914 views

But he's melee. All melee carries in this game get some form of defensive/utility skill because they have the tradeoff of being I don't know, MELEE.

Jax dodges all your autoattacks, reduces your AOE damage by 25% and gets tons of armor/MR when he presses R Tryndamere is immune to death for 5 seconds Fiora has an invulnerability frame and an insane heal Yi has medidate + invulnerability frame

"But those champions' skills are selfish, they don't offer team utility and prevent damage for teammates"

Jax has a 1 second AOE stun Trynd reduces your teams AD by fucking 80 Fiora has an aoe heal, and she has a stun

Why exactly are you complaining about Yasuo for having Wind Wall again? He's a melee carry, of course he needs some defensive skill to be viable lol, considering there's RANGED carries with MULTIPLE defensive skills: see vayne/tristana/Kalista

"But Yasuo's can even dodge ultimates!!!"

Jax dodges the entirety of Warwick's ultimate in addition to any other skill that is an on hit, GP's Q, Ezreal's Q, Irelia's Q, etc Tryndamere doesn't care if you use your ultimate CC/damage on him because he can still cast his R during CC Fiora and Yi Both can avoid MOST skills in the game, including ultimates, due to having invulnerability frames

But yea, let's complain about Yasuo when he doesn't even get scaling MR and actually has the lowest damage out of the melee carries in this game.

177 Comments

Only Play Darius42 votes

The main problem people have with windwall is that it is a basic ability that can completely fizzle numerous ultimates in one cast (just ask any Nami player), essentially giving it the strength of an ultimate ability despite being his W. It's a tier one utility spell that most supports would kill to have and the rest of his kit's balance has to be warped/gimped around the sheer game-changing power a well placed windwall can bring. Unfortunately unlike other problematic ridiculously strong basic abilities like Blitzcrank Q or Fizz E, they can't just slap an insane mana cost on it and call it a day.

Guy Fox Teemo3 votes

I don't see why abilites have to be ultimates to be strong, ultimate just refers to the Champions main ability that enhances their kit the most. Can't really compare ultimates or abilitys

SpecterVonBaren8 votes

Tell that to Veigar players... like me.

Axis the Dragon8 votes

Technically, Veigar's best ability used to be E until they changed it

SpecterVonBaren15 votes

That's the point, he had a basic ability with ult level power and yet Riot nerfed it, why can't Veigar's E be strong like Yasuo's W?

MetalGearTeemu7 votes

{quoted}

That's the point, he had a basic ability with ult level power and yet Riot nerfed it, why can't Veigar's E be strong like Yasuo's W?

Because he committed the unforgivable sin of being a counter to mobility cancer.

and there is nothing riot hates more then a hero that can shut down zed and lee sin's plays.

except maybe Soraka's healing.

BeMyFriendPlease2 votes

{quoted}

Because he committed the unforgivable sin of being a counter to mobility cancer.

and there is nothing riot hates more then a hero that can shut down zed and lee sin's plays.

except maybe Soraka's healing.

Logged in to upvote, because the irony of this company does get a little silly with their "compensation buffs" and "balancing for counterplay"

GodSupport Katie1 votes

Pre nerf veigar would lose more often than not to a zed in lane though. I get that its the cool thing to hate those champs but come on.

MetalGearTeemu2 votes

yes, thats why they didn't nerf him until SUPPORT viegar became a thing. entirely for the purposes of using the stun to shut down lee/zed plays.

This was why he was nerfed, for trending in the support position in korean lcs.

Incognonymous31 votes

The problem isn't his defensive abilities or utility, the problem is just how much shit he already has in his kit as a whole. He has windwall and shield defensively, Q's uncleansable, resourceless, hard CC, ults instantaneous, uncleansable, blink that reduces armor by 50%, his infinite, resourceless, shield generating dashes (mobility is safety), double passive, blah blah blah, I could go on. Complaints about Yasuo's abilities don't occur in a vacuum. He simply has too much stuff to reasonably allow within a single champ.

AHeroNamedHawke19 votes

{quoted}

ults instantaneous, uncleansable

For fucks sake people, Last Breath is not a knockup, its a Suspension which is functionally identical to a stun

This is why I dont take anyone complaining about Yasuo seriously

Incognonymous9 votes

[{quoted}](name=Charles Barklius,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EBFzhONm,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2015-09-10T03:12:58.969+0000)

For fucks sake people, Last Breath is not a knockup, its a Suspension which is functionally identical to a stun

This is why I dont take anyone complaining about Yasuo seriously

"Suspension Suspension is a stun with "airborne" effect for the purposes of Last Breath.png Last Breath. The target is unable to control movement, attack or cast abilities. The target remains targetable and will be affected by abilities as if they were on the ground (such as Miasma.png Miasma). Interrupts the channeling of abilities. Interrupts dash abilities. Unlike a knockup, which is visually similar: The duration is affected by crowd control reduction. The effect can be removed by all cleansing effects. The target is considered to be "airborne" for the purposes of Last Breath.png Last Breath. Champions with Suspension: NamiSquare.png Nami, Vel'KozSquare.png Vel'Koz, YasuoSquare.png Yasuo. Visual effect: swirl over champion's head."

No. The closest thing it's compared to in the wiki is a knockup. The only difference is that it is cleansable, so good catch (but also irrelevant, who actually cleanses anything, it's easier to qq). The fact that you don't take Yasuo complainers seriously is proof that Gameplay & Balance needs to be razed, salted, and left to be barren ruin. Yasuo belongs in the category of champs that are so poor a reflection on Riot that their designers should be in the mail room or unemployed.

I will hear no more salty waifu defenders protest this. That is all.

Sightless666 votes

No. The closest thing it's compared to in the wiki is a knockup.

Suspensions can be cleansed and are reduced by tenacity. Functionally, that is no different from a stun outside of letting people get hit by Yasuo ult. Seriously, the only things separating knockups from stuns are non-cleansability and an immunity to tenacity. Suspensions have neither, so they are functionally stuns.

I understand hating Yasuo, but suspensions being closer to knockups than stuns is just wrong. I don't have to have any opinions about Yasuo to know that. They lack two of the three fundamental traits that make knockups different from stuns (Yasuo being able to ult them is literally the only thing that makes them anything different than stuns).

Miraweave16 votes

Windwall is fine.

Double fucking crit chance and a no cooldown dash are not.

Retillin9 votes

No, it's having ALL of the crap on his kit. He is (shockingly from a CT champ) over loaded, and there for almost impossible to balance in his current form.

Keevalroy4 votes

None of those things are fine...

WalkingInACircle9 votes

"I like arguing against quotes I just made up"

FalconPawwwwnch42 votes

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/4og7caKg-can-we-make-yasuo-windwall-only-block-abilities-that-the-wall-is-facing

Just look through this thread

Nice try though

WalkingInACircle2 votes

It's not in there. Try again.

Lol how many voting dupes ya got brah.

BUDDHISTINK16 votes

Yes it is.

WalkingInACircle2 votes

Nnnnnope. One copy paste and ctrl f proves you wrong.

FalconPawwwwnch12 votes

you do know that theres a ton of comments that aren't visible unless you click to show them right

Axis the Dragon7 votes

Actually, both of you are technically correct

The actual quote is "yasuo is a carry and is therefore supposed to be vulnerable" - MightySaturn

But you took it from the wrong thread =P

It's this one: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/0YeNFyiA-a-single-pixel-of-namis-gigantic-ult-touches-the-very-edge-of-yasuos-w?show=nested

Retillin9 votes

Each champion you picked to equal Wind Wall (Jax/Trynd/Fiora/Yi) all have MUCH weaker forms of damage mitigation.

Jax doesn't block spells. Just auto attacks, hence he blocks Warwick's damage yet is still suppressed and therefor Warwick still stops/slows down Jax by using his ult.

Trynd has to us his ult on a 110-100-90 cooldown (Yasuo 26 down to 18). So what one is going to be up EVERY minion wave?

Fiora can only block spells for .75 seconds. Wind Wall lasts 3.75 seconds.

Master Yi has to use his one attack ability (alpha strike) to ignore an ability/auto attack for .5 seconds (I might be wrong on this number, it may be up to .75).

You know what else all of these champions have in common vs Wind Wall? Their defensive ability DOESN'T SAVE THEIR ENTIRE TEAM. That's the issue. If Wind Wall only blocked spells/auto attacks vs Yasuo, there would be a lot less complaining. Could you imagine a world where another carry had one of the best protection/utility spells in the game? (And high mobility, and high damage)

Braum, the king of support shield/protection has his shield on an 18 down to 10 cool down. That's better than Yasuo, but guess what, after the first ability is blocked he takes the damage/cc of anything else to protect those around him.

If you want to have Braum and Yasuo's shields flipped? Fine, then Yasuo can't protect his entire team every 18 seconds from tons of damage.

TL:DR- Those abilities you use as an example vs Yasuo are not even close to being in the same league power wise.

Dextix LT8 votes

Yes. However all the champions you listed have really temporary immunity to skills and they dont NULIFY them. Only fiora can nulify a skill.

And second is the best part. These champs you listed can defend only themselves, their defense skills are for them to use. Yasuos defensive skill can be used by his WHOLE team. And considdering his kit, that aint good.

Akali is SO HOT3 votes

Jax has a 1 second AOE stun Trynd reduces your teams AD by fucking 80 Fiora has an aoe Stun

Dextix LT7 votes

Ahem, you see, If Fiora has an AOE stun, then either you havent seen a fiora in 10 years or you havent played this game.

Talk to me once you have. Thank you.

Learning moment8 votes

Fioras stun isnt aoe it only stuns the first person it hits and then does the ap damage to the whole line. edit that.

Lugg8 votes

I wouldn't mind wind wall at all if the rest of his kit wasn't so overloaded.

Faded Lich3 votes

{quoted}

I wouldn't mind wind wall at all if the rest of his kit wasn't so overloaded.

"Overloaded"..Q: Line nuke, on third use, longer range line nuke with knock up

E: Dash with virtually no CD but target restrictions. Interaction with Q that turns it into a small circular AoE instead of a line nuke.

R: Damage/suspends knocks up, gives armor pen after.

That is your idea of "overloaded" ? Seriously? >_>

Lugg13 votes

You left out the fact that he has TWO of the best passives in the game. Wind wall by itself is one of the top 5 abilities including ultimates. Plus he can ult on ANY knockup in the game. If he isn't overloaded, no one is.

Faded Lich4 votes

{quoted}

You left out the fact that he has TWO of the best passives in the game. Wind wall by itself is one of the top 5 abilities including ultimates. Plus he can ult on ANY knockup in the game. If he isn't overloaded, no one is.

Windwall can be baited and has a long CD.

His shield is so insanely easy to break it, I'm pretty sure complaining about it at this point just auto-places you into bronze. Seriously. One AA. In an all in it doesn't block enough to matter (and is generally broken before hand anyway) and is only effective against idiots who trade into it. IT's a brain check more than anything, hardly one of the best passives in the game.

The increased crit chance is indeed nice. That i'll give you. Him and ashe are extremely happy together in there own, unique way.

Retillin9 votes

Stop saying it's a "long CD". It's 26 seconds at rank 1, down to 18 at max rank. In a duel that's a long time. In a team fight set up being able to have it ready for each team fight is what makes it OP. A long cool down is something that isn't ready for each minion wave when it is a team fighting tool. If the Wall only blocked attacks at Yasuo, there would be much less complaining. But it's about the fact that Wall is a TEAM utility that is the problem. (It's stronger than Braum's shield, that shouldn't be the case when it comes to team fights)

Gorgannan3 votes

If you're melee, you either all in him or you don't.

You can't break the shield and then leave and come back. That means that EVERY all in, he has effectively bonus HP that heals every 8 seconds.

Faded Lich2 votes

{quoted}

If you're melee, you either all in him or you don't.

You can't break the shield and then leave and come back. That means that EVERY all in, he has effectively bonus HP that heals every 8 seconds.

Which is fairly easy because most melee shit on Yasuo because, heads up...most melee counter him :O He is anti-ranged, his damage and ability to keep up with another melee harasser is mute. So, you know...Wrong tree to bark up.

Incognonymous7 votes

Yasuo's shield isn't enough?

FalconPawwwwnch15 votes

Yasuo's shield makes up for the fact that he has nearly half the MR of a normal melee champion at level 18

Incognonymous8 votes

{quoted}

Yasuo's shield makes up for the fact that he has nearly half the MR of a normal melee champion at level 18

Why would that matter? It's one of the strongest early game shields in the entire game, and it's resourceless. This in no way is related to his MR gain at level 18.

Akali is SO HOT8 votes

It's one of the strongest early game shields in the entire game

At level 1 it's 100 for 1 single second. If you somehow blow your load on him and let him mitigate 100 damage then you are terribad. Literally all you have to do is walk up to him and auto attack him to waste his shield.

Towboat4211 votes

{quoted}

Yasuo's shield makes up for the fact that he has nearly half the MR of a normal melee champion at level 18

Yi isent exactly invulnerable during his alpha, just so you know he is able to be hit by a slew of aoe spells during it like lux ult for instance.

Faded Lich4 votes

{quoted}

Yi isent exactly invulnerable during his alpha, just so you know he is able to be hit by a slew of aoe spells during it like lux ult for instance.

No youu can't be. If you ever saw a Yi get hit or "die" during alpha it was right as he came out of it or right as it started.

VDc0zCqe0w7 votes

{quoted}

But he's melee. All melee carries in this game get some form of defensive/utility skill because they have the tradeoff of being I don't know, MELEE.

But melees have got more armor, HP, movespeed, base AD, scaling stats than ranged champions by default.

Gorgannan3 votes

Ok, I disagree with the OP but I can't act like a few bonus stats are going to balance range vs. melee. Being melee is such a huge disadvantage in a 5v5.

VDc0zCqe0w1 votes

{quoted}

Ok, I disagree with the OP but I can't act like a few bonus stats are going to balance range vs. melee. Being melee is such a huge disadvantage in a 5v5.

Well yes they are going to do that.

That's the whole concept of Irelia: overpower your opponent with your massive ball of stats, and RIven doesn't have anything except a shield (that even if scales AD doesn't do a whole lot, stop deluding yourselves) yet she still manages to be viable (and even more than that at times).

Gorgannan1 votes

That does nothing to prove your point.

  1. Riven works BECAUSE she's not a ball of stats, she has a mechanic that helps.

  2. Irelia does NOT work. She's single handedly the reason Riot decided to go with fun weird OP mechanics instead of stats.

Earl Eulrich5 votes

the difference is...all the other examples only affect the Champ itself, Yasuo provides utility for his whole + towers (and blocking all incoming dmg for up to 4sec is arguably way stronger than just staying at 1hp for a little longer, despite not even being the ultimate - also tryndamere cares a lot about being cc´d, because not dying is no use for him if he can´t hit anything). Yasuo already has a shield and his mobility + two (conditional) hard-cc, there´s absolutly no justification for the windwall.

ViKlNG5 votes

Lets just delete yasuo from league. -_- Guys there are plenty of things that annoy me about all champions. But for real yasuo is balanced. He has clear counters. He is fine the way he is. Dont see whats with all this yasuo hate recently. Literally his win rate is 50%. I have plenty of yasuo's on my team that have fed. He's not super human. And windwall is a part of his kit that makes him good and it already has a really long cooldown like i couldnt think of a cooldown longer then it thats not an ult off of the top of my head. Leave things be.

Koechophe4 votes

My biggest issue is if the Yasuo player is even somewhat competant, they can use wind wall to negate so many of the most powerful abilities in the game, and there's nothing you can do about it. I hate playing champs like Nami against yasuo because I know that my ult is useless.

But regardless, I think the main issue with Yasuo is that his windwall is in excess to his perma-minion dash (so freaking obnoxious to play against) and his shield that refreshes and absorbs a crazy amount of damage. I think he should have defensive steriods. I just don't like how many of them he does have. Also, he doesn't play like a melee adc, he plays like an assassin (and his burst is also like an assassin) so having that many defensive steriods feels excessive.

Enosetc3 votes

there's also the part where it's still on a long cooldown even if he successfully uses it to block something so it can still be played around

Akali is SO HOT9 votes

nah the 20 second cooldown ability blocked my 1k range nuke on a 4 second cooldown. I've basically lost lane at that point! xD!

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