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Why can Bruisers do tanks' Job way better than them?

ExecutorDill··10 votes·3,912 views

You ever heard the term, "The best offense is the greatest defense?" Well that's LoL 101. I thought only the Noxian's saw strength and mental competence as human worth but apparently Rioters share the same belief also. Tanks are underrated, bruisers can do their job and still bring decent damage to the table. Champion stats aren't that far off, so the only thing setting apart champs are mastery/rune choice, their abilities and the skill lvl of the player, because items aren't that high impact if your enemies have access to it and can see what your building.

#I will take 2 champs from the roster as my focus point:

Shen (The God Amongst Tanks) Pantheon (The Troll of Sparta)

#Here we are looking at passives:

Shen's Passive helps does a little magic damage after every 9 seconds based on 10% bonus health plus 4+(4x level). Eh niche, He is to item reliant and it's weak against champs that gain mr per lvl and can buy an addition 1-2 items to make it nothing more than a regular auto at max lvl.

Pantheon can block basic attacks and "TURRET SHOTS! once he auto's 1 or use an ability 4 times.

[Pantheon's passive is priceless as it's not that complex, can block significant and otherwise Fatal Damage and will become more useful the stronger your enemies are at DPS.]

Shen is Team Reliant, Item Reliant and yet that does not bother me as this is not the problem shen is facing.

You would think that they would add a little more damage output to a champ who has a defensive/utility ultimate with a long cooldown and cannot be used to max potential with summoner's who are unplugged in lol strategies (usually happens in SoloQ) no ult but know, RIOT does asses champions individual capacities (atleast they can't with some champs)

Need not worry about the rest of the abilities as Pantheon's kit beat's shen in damage and that becomes his haven for survival, so between the mr/ per lvl and "Aegis Protection" that all he needs to beat shen.

Energy- good early to mid game, sucks late game :( Mana- Sucks early game and needs items to increase, great mid to late game.

87 Comments

TehNACHO10 votes

Looks like a Shen vs Pantheon discussion than an actual tanks vs bruisers one.

It's also so much harder to compare, seeing that Shen's Ultimate and Vorpal Blade marking is explicitly used to defend other champs on Shen's team, whereas the only thing Pantheon can do to defend others is to use his Aegis in a particularly defensive way; something matched by Shen's Taunt.

That in mind, no, this bruiser (Panth) can't do nearly the job of a tank (Shen). 3 Abilities in Shen's kit can defend his allies, and while the value of his Q can be argued to be not that great (at least in the middle of a team fight), Shen's Taunt can ward off multiple champs in a team fight and Shen's Ultimate, what with its global utility and massive shield, makes him always be ready to defend, even from across the map (assuming it's off cool down of course).

ExecutorDill2 votes

Pantheon:

  1. Is faster than shen
  1. Had a better attack speed than shen till nerf
  1. Riot had to switch the damn dragon in S5's aoe basic damage to magic damage just so Pantheon couldn't 1v1 it with passive and spear shot at lvl 1 (game changing huh?)
  1. He Can't save directly save someone's life buy he has stun (which is better than shen taunt in some cases) and can take turret shots with his block.
  1. His ultimate brings way more to team fight and he has insane amounts of damage.

Paired with mr per lvl I just don't see Pantheon's weakness, and having mana is way better than energy late game.

FyshinaTux5 votes

The reason that Bruisers do tanks' jobs better, is because... well... they don't.

Bruisers can't tank as well as tanks, the only issue is that Bruisers do a HELL of a lot more damage than tanks, so bruisers can kill you before you can kill them in a lot of cases, tanks hit like a pool noodle (with some exceptions).

ExecutorDill2 votes

You know what's funny, I have seen tanks and a supp once built insane defenses, like item 3143 item 3110 item 3105 item 3102 item 3068 item 3075 item 3065 and died 20+ times to champs who were building glass cannon (meaning little or no defense) -_-

JustMyBassCannon4 votes

Because dying implies the tank isn't doing their job...?

If they're dying, they're drawing focus. If they're drawing focus, they're doing their job. So long as it's not a wasteful death, it's not a bad statistic.

I've seen more valuable tanks go 2/9/## than 10/0/## simply because the enemy team wasted everything on killing them first, leaving the rest of the tank's team to steamroll them.

ExecutorDill1 votes

You are talking rubbish! The reason you build tanky in the first place is to have maximum survivability and doing more for your team on the battlefield with less recalls, picking up a truckload of items whenever you do. Not sacrificing yourself so your team can pick up a few kills, you know how many times I saw the team with the less kills and gold end up winning. An ADC, Support, Assasin and Mage can't survive so long in Pro Levels.

Damage dealers should be the pawns of allies who can carry the team, protect them and most often issue game changing commands. Who better to do this than the person who is on the battlefield the most, experiencing the enemy's strengths/weaknesses and having good objective control!

JustMyBassCannon3 votes

{quoted}

You are talking rubbish! The reason you build tanky in the first place is to have maximum survivability and doing more for your team on the battlefield with less recalls, picking up a truckload of items whenever you do. Not sacrificing yourself so your team can pick up a few kills, you know how many times I saw the team with the less kills and gold end up winning. An ADC, Support, Assasin and Mage can't survive so long in Pro Levels.

Okay, so what is the point of survivability?

To...survive, right? To be able to survive taking more damage?

Because the tank's kit is all about drawing focus on them and...taking damage for their team. So their squishy teammates don't take the brunt of the focus.

You were stating that you've seen tanks go full tank build and still die in combat. My response was that I've seen more valuable tanks with high death counts than low death counts, because the fact that they're dying means that they're going into combat.

I did not say the point of survivability was to be a kamikaze. I stated that, yes, even good tanks will die late-game despite having built defenses. Tanks don't buy defenses to never die. This isn't Season 1.

ExecutorDill1 votes

Iv'e seen Tekglow go 10/0/20 with shen and made amazing saves everytime ult was on cooldown or he had shadow dash to use. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7y_Q7OXLuCs

Don't think I never distracted an enemy so my ADC or main damage dealer can survive. My point is most of the Incompetent players in soloQ still die after I sacrificed my self to save them and if not when I die the cower in fear as most of them can't make WorldStar plays beneath 20% hp without their giant brick wall "The Tank" to stand behind! I'm not saying for them to go kill theirself for no reason but

Also wouldn't you also draw attention by not dying and having kills/assists, your enemy will be attracted to that shutdown gold like a bear near a beehive.

A lot of times I had to carry as shen ulting and teleport taking out 2 towers outand ignoring teammates because they generally were not worth saving most of the time because (trying to get a kill was their main objectives.) Which resulted in constant unnecessary death.

And We Won, I still saved a bit, and they Praised me saying "SHEN CARRY!" And other stuff. I was able to do this because, even if I were not to get a lot of kills (Which I Did Get > 9/3/15) because I was alive to farm, take objectives! and was not denied much XP, I was able to do so much more than just be a distracting punching bag. For some reason carrying with tank felt more rewarding than carrying with anything else, I guess it's because it's harder to do :3

Kills/Assist= A lot of a gold with little XP Minions/Monsters/Turrets= Lots of XP less with gold than kills and assists.

ExecutorDill: A kill for a kill is not the way of the league... Well not the way of Demacians and Ionians I believe.

JustMyBassCannon3 votes

You can name isolated cases of tanks not dying and being useful to their team. Congratulations, you have negated absolutely nothing that I have said.

I never said that a tank with a high K/D was a KSing bastard that wasn't doing their job. I said that a tank's K/D is irrelevant to how well they are doing their job. In my experience, I have seen better tanks with bad K/D ratios than I have with good K/D ratios. That doesn't mean I've never seen a good tank with a good K/D, that's just the trend I've seen.

There, did I Engrish it hard enough for you?

ExecutorDill1 votes

3 tanks draw attention to theirself.

Those are the champions with taunts:

Galio Rammus When

So saying all of them have the abilities to do that is a lie.

JustMyBassCannon4 votes

I said, in case you are incapable of reading English,

{quoted}

[clipped] If they're drawing focus, they're doing their job.

The job of a tank is to draw focus. I did not imply in any way that a tank's kit will always have a taunt to force focus on them, I said that a tank wants the enemy team focusing on them because they were designed to take the punishment for their team.

The tank's job is to draw focus. This does not mean they always have a taunt. The two are not symbiotic; it's not impossible to draw focus without a taunt.

ExecutorDill1 votes

{quoted}

I said, in case you are incapable of reading English,

The job of a tank is to draw focus. I did not imply in any way that a tank's kit will always have a taunt to force focus on them, I said that a tank wants the enemy team focusing on them because they were designed to take the punishment for their team.

The tank's job is to draw focus. This does not mean they always have a taunt. The two are not symbiotic; it's not impossible to draw focus without a taunt.

That's what makes when the best, energy based; ally healing; can effectively draw the attention of multiple targets, can peel and his ultimate is gold.

JustMyBassCannon4 votes

And if Shen is the best, he obviously must be the only tank anyone good plays.

Except for the fact that Taunt is not necessarily the best way to draw focus, only the easiest.

FyshinaTux2 votes

As I said... Tanks deal relatively no damage (with a few exceptions). So yea, I wouldn't doubt that they died to people building full glass cannon, PARTICULARLY since nearly ALL tanks are melee, and kite-able.

Newbert Newman1 votes

Any tank has to have a Dmg item that emphasizes the strengths of your abilities. Also, anybody dying 20 times is either having a bad day or doesn't know how to play the champ they're on. Or they better have 10 kills and 35 assist.

Exclusions: Tanky bot lane supports. I'm talking about top lane/jungle tanks here.

Rebonack5 votes

You are incorrect. A tank's job is to take damage for as long as possible without dying.

This is false.

Just... totally false.

There is a LOT more to a Tank's job than just being able to soak a whole lot of damage before they die. That's part of it, but far from the whole deal.

Newbert Newman1 votes

Agreed.....this isn't WOW, you don't have to Facetank Garrosh or anything last time I checked. Trying to put on sentence or even a paragraph to defining a tanks role in LOL is a waste of team. Read a guide if you want to understand how to play a tank.

Sage Mode Kiwi1 votes

{quoted}

This is false.

Just... totally false.

There is a LOT more to a Tank's job than just being able to soak a whole lot of damage before they die. That's part of it, but far from the whole deal.

No, that's actually it. Among other things like disrupting the enemy.

IcyPepper2 votes

Among other things like disrupting the enemy.

You do realize that contradicts what you just said.

You just said that no, in fact there's only one thing tanks need to do... among others, like [example]. No, there's not multiple, there's only one... among others.

I can go on, but you should get the gist by now. "Among others" is a statement that implies there is more than one.

Angry Monster4 votes

the problem is that bruiser is not a recognized class by riot. Some devs throw around the term but it not a class in the game.

Guineasaurus Rex2 votes

i agree with this. Many people are calling for a nerf to arpen/mpen because tanks die to quickly in late game but if you did this not only would tanks be stronger but 'bruisers' would be much much better of too. I think bruisers are causing balance issues for the game. Why should a champ be able to get 1-2 dmg items, the rest tank items and be able to burst down other champs. It seems like bruisers need to be changed to be more item dependent so that if they get only 1 dmg item they actually hit/attack like they only have 1 dmg item, as a typical carry would

ExecutorDill1 votes

If you ask me, Tank isn't a noted class in other RPG's either, they would call it Berserker or Juggernaut.

Anyways 90% of the time a bruiser is much more valuable to the team than a tank.

Ever heard of anti-tank guns? Well here are some> Jax Vi Darius Gnar Olaf plus many more.

Angry Monster1 votes

I am not sure ganr is a anti tank. But the others are. Add oalf to that anti tank list.

Juggernaut, tank different names same job. The point is riot recognizes that tanks as a term exists. Look at the champ role in client. While bruiser is a community term for fighters that get tanky.

ExecutorDill1 votes

Forgot Olaf :P

Anyway Gnar has a passive ability that deal damage up to 16% of your max health every third attack at max rank. Seem's pretty anti-tank to me.

Angry Monster1 votes

I guess... but i am not sure how usefull that is when in mega. And mid late gnar seems more in your face to the back line. I could be wrong though

RoakOriginal3 votes

didnt read your post, but the answer for topic question is - bcs the best form of CC is death... ;)

Rustling Bush3 votes

shen? thats a funny way to spell singed

RookPusher3 votes

Bruisers can dish out the damage and can certainly take a lot too often, but Tanks, like Supports, (imo) are about kits. They punish. I love tanking with Maokai. Not exactly the greatest damage dealer, but he auto heals, locks people down, slows, knocks up, and greatly reduces damage taken.

I'd rather have Maokai than Pantheon, but if you're in solo queue with a team that refuses to group and goes full FPS, then maybe it's even. Still, Maokai's kit is far more important for the team.

And to the guy who said "death is the best form of CC" - everyone has the ability to kill, kit-based CC is icing on the cake.

Hayaishi3 votes

You're comparing Pantheon.

if you want an actually bullshit bruiser, say Irelia, Vi, J4. All have utility and damage to kill while being tanky and cc opponents.

The Ellimiist3 votes

Im pretty sure the phrase is "The best defense is a good offense" which is the opposite of what your talking about xD

The Whamboozler3 votes

You are incorrect. A tank's job is to take damage for as long as possible without dying. Very few bruisers do that as well as tanks. Nothing on EARTH stands around in a fight not dying as well as a full tank... like Alistar, Maokai or Shen. What bruisers do well is putting out a decent amount of damage while being difficult enough to kill to merit the attention of the enemy team's major damage champs... thus keeping said damage champs away from your own squish damage champs.

Bruisers do not, as a rule, survive in a fight longer than their full tank counterparts (though one CAN make the legit case that there are very few full-tanks left). The issue is that the role bruisers provide is FAR more useful than the role of a full tank. A champ with nothing but defense can't do a lot. They can't duel or splitpush well... and they often bring little to a fight beyond CC and durability. But living a long time if you're accomplishing nothing during that time doesn't help much. This is a game about killing other champs, breaking towers, and taking neutral objectives, and damage is needed for all of those things. So yes, a champ that has a fair ability to output damage is almost always preferred to one with none but who is more durable. The bruiser only needs to be just durable to survive the teamfight or tank a tower for a little bit. Full tank Alistar can sit under a tower for a week, but what teamfight lasts that long?

The problem isn't that the bruisers are better tanks than tanks. They're not. Most bruisers rush damage items first and only get tanky later... or build a mix of the two. The problem is that the role of bruisers is far more useful. It's all very nebulous too. Most bruisers can build all-tank items and be initiators. What makes a tank a tank? Alistar is one of the tankiest champs in the game and he does a pretty impressive bit of damage with a TF or an AP heavy build. Almost every tank can sneak damage into their build, and nearly every bruiser can become really tanky.

If your issue is "why does a champ have to output damage to matter in the game", that's fair... but in that case I'd say look to supports. Tanky supports still matter in a lot of games, but it's because they protect the damage dealers and help set them up to become fed and huge. Damage is what the game is all about. Do damage, protect your guys that do damage, and kill their guys that do damage. That's how the game works. Tanky champs haven't gone away. Maokai is tanky as heck and he's still a very strong and viable top laner. His strength is that he's hard to kill in lane, and that he is amazingly good at offering utility, CC and supporting his team in teamfights.

If you're just offended that Shen top isn't great right now, well... sorry. But tanky champs still matter.

HateDaddy3 votes

No bruiser does the job of a tank

There isn't a single bruiser that tanks better than a Maokai, Alistar, Braum, Leona, Mundo, Shen and so on. All of them have very low damage output but make up for it with disruption and being a big enough threat that you can't ignore them but takes forever to kill (mundo). No bruiser does this, they are significantly less tanky and will do more damage. Some bruises have the capacity to fill a tank role if built that way (Zac, Jarvan, etc) but in reality, they aren't bruisers at that point. They're being played for their utility and disruption/initiate, not their damage.

Kingsgrave3 votes

Tanks should be redesigned to be able to be bruiserish aka the ability to reliably fight and do damage

I would rather have a Jarvan on my team over something like Naut any day. Who cares about locking someone down with CC for 3-4 seconds when you can barely kill an Assassin, Mage or Carry by yourself?

Bruisers can initiate, peel, damage, tank, push, etc., Tanks do peeling and imitating way better but lack a lot of ability to do anything else even half as well.

Honestly Shen needs to be somewhat reworked and would probably fit better overall as a support than as a solo laner.

ExecutorDill1 votes

Ikr, Braum also fit's into that tons of CC, no damage category. Riot says "We don't wanna discourage players from playing champions they like in different lanes" well I'd be a damn fool to play Brain anywhere but support :P

Kingsgrave2 votes

{quoted}

Ikr, Braum also fit's into that tons if CC, no damage area, Riot says "We don't wanna discourage players from playing champions they like in different lanes" well I'd be a damn fool to play Brain anywhere but support :P

Braum honestly does plenty of damage. If his Q went through minions instead of being stopped by them he would be played top immediately, but he would also be mega buffed in bot lane and would probably be too strong for Top in general given his spammable Q and how easy he is to gank for. I think Braum is one of the better designed Tanks. If more tanks had health to damage scaling with no other means of scaling while also providing utility + CC, Tanks a whole would be better, but they dont work like that mostly because they cant.

Newbert Newman1 votes

Sure, if you define a solo's laners job as just a dmg dealing bruiser. which I don't. Shen does his job fine in top lane.

Magma Lux Mid2 votes

Why Shen for tanks and not Amumu/Sejuani/Braum/Leona? Name a bruiser that can CC a whole team for a wombo-combo.

Maestro803 votes

Wukong? That ult is pretty good at messing up an entire team with CC, and can kill squishies too.

ExecutorDill1 votes

Plus his passive makes him slightly stronger in teamfights. I think it needs a slight buff though say 5 instead of 4 but whatever

Magma Lux Mid1 votes

Good point, but he relies on sneaking in, ulting, and hoping for a follow-up or running away. Whereas Nasus (who is probably the god among tanks) can go in, soak up all 5 ults, and still be only around half health while 1-shotting carries.

Rebonack2 votes

For what it's worth, Jman and Vi fit the functional definition of a True Tank. Irelia doesn't. She would be more in the category of Nasus or Shy or Mundo or Garen.

A True Tank is able to do the following:

  1. Initiate team fights
  2. Peel for allies
  3. Soak oodles of damage
  4. Be a significant threat over time

How Tanks do number 4 can vary widely. They might do it through spammy CC, through directly protecting their allies, through cool auras, by shredding enemy defense, by dealing heavy AoE damage over time, or even by outputting nasty single target DPS.

Y'know, I think part of the problem is that folks only seem to consider Mage/Tanks to be 'real' tanks (Aumum, Naut, Rammus, Sej, Leona, Tree, ect). Fighter/Tanks are a thing, too (see, Vi and Jman) but they aren't nearly as plentiful.

Sachabot2 votes

Team reliant support-tank versus bruiser-assassin? Really didn't think this one through much, did you? Look at their kits and you'll understand, especially since these two aren't even close to each other.

Shen's kit means his tankiness (tankyness? whatever) is there to protect his carries while they deal damage.

Panth's kit means that his defensive build allows him to survive while he kills the enemy carry.|

A tank protects his team, a bruiser looks to hurt the enemy. That's the difference. Right now, though, Arpen and Mpen are killing tanks, so the meta doesn't really favor them versus bruisers, who at least have a chance at killing the enemy.

ExecutorDill1 votes

Right now, though, Arpen and Mpen are killing tanks, so the meta doesn't really favor them versus bruisers, who at least have a chance at killing the enemy.

That's what I mean bruh!!! (Sorry if I am going about explaining this the wrong way) But Arpen champs like Darius shred tanks! And because tanks are so immobile they die like a road killed Alistar No squishy champ will take them head on if there tank only lasts 4-5 seconds (at that time is when ADC's attack!) But what will they do in a team fight? Darius can build 2 tank item s the rest offense to be tanky enough to wipe out the whole team before they kill him.

Sachabot2 votes

Sorry for late reply.

Tanks and bruisers do different jobs, but from the same place. Bruisers aren't replacing tanks. Tanks are just in a bad place right now, and bruisers aren't.

Meep Man1 votes

Well, usually, in order for a Tank to be useful, they have to have a strong defensive niche as you can see from all tanks that have been good in history. Also, most of them have % reduced damage spells.

Alistar Alistar Extremely good AoE healing and major disruption. Has a huge % percent reduced damage ultimate.

Blitzcrank Blitzcrank Do I even have to say? THE PULL OF THE GODS!

Braum Braum Incredible defensive shield with % reduced damage. His passive also has great synergy with ADCs.

DrMundo Dr. Mundo SUPER HEALING!

Galio Galio His ultimate not being reduced by tenacity has made him really good. His W is also an extremely good defensive option for both himself and allies. HE ALSO, gets offensive stats from defensive stats.

Hecarim Hecarim Not so much now, but Hecarim used to be the bomb. His initiation and ganks were amazing.

JarvanIV Jarvan IV Nothing is better than an instant ADC death ultimate. Especially since most ADCs aren't too mobile.

Leona Leona Super aggressive and has lots of crowd control.

Malphite Malphite Unstoppable initiation.

Maokai Moakai His AoE % reduced damage is extremely good. He also has an extremely good initiation move and free wards.

Rammus Rammus The bane of ADCs everywhere.

Thresh Thresh The lantern is the ultimate move to save your non-mobile hyper carries. His ultimate is also really good.

Zac Zac Release Zac that is. He was extremely good, but then his blobs became "contestable" and every Zac main screamed out in agony.

Kingsgrave4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Inept Maverick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EBFZ8esF,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2014-12-18T23:40:19.797+0000)

Well, usually, in order for a Tank to be useful, they have to have a strong defensive niche as you can see from all tanks that have been good in history. Also, most of them have % reduced damage spells.

Alistar Alistar Extremely good AoE healing and major disruption. Has a huge % percent reduced damage ultimate.

Blitzcrank Blitzcrank Do I even have to say? THE PULL OF THE GODS!

Braum Braum Incredible defensive shield with % reduced damage. His passive also has great synergy with ADCs.

DrMundo Dr. Mundo SUPER HEALING!

Galio Galio His ultimate not being reduced by tenacity has made him really good. His W is also an extremely good defensive option for both himself and allies. HE ALSO, gets offensive stats from defensive stats.

Hecarim Hecarim Not so much now, but Hecarim used to be the bomb. His initiation and ganks were amazing.

JarvanIV Jarvan IV Nothing is better than an instant ADC death ultimate. Especially since most ADCs aren't too mobile.

Leona Leona Super aggressive and has lots of crowd control.

Malphite Malphite Unstoppable initiation.

Maokai Moakai His AoE % reduced damage is extremely good. He also has an extremely good initiation move and free wards.

Rammus Rammus The bane of ADCs everywhere.

Thresh Thresh The lantern is the ultimate move to save your non-mobile hyper carries. His ultimate is also really good.

Zac Zac Release Zac that is. He was extremely good, but then his blobs became "contestable" and every Zac main screamed out in agony.

Jarvan is not a tank, he is a fighter aka a bruiser. He only provides one real form of CC and it's mostly selfish. I would argue current Maokai isn't a tank either.

ExecutorDill1 votes

Join My Legion of Protesters xD

Kingsgrave2 votes

{quoted}

Join My Legion of Protesters xD

Protesting is pointless and I don't agree with your points for the most part. If anything I think that the majority of tanks are poorly designed and the only way they can really work is if they were supports. Top laners and Junglers that build nothing but tank are useless for clearing, farming, trading, pushing and teamfighting. Supports can function really well as tanks because they only have the few tasks that Tanks actually do well at and don't have to do anything else that Tanks suck at. Babysit squishy people and hit other squishies with CC.

Maokai goes top because he can actually do something in fights when he can build RoA+IBG and some other damage items with his tank items. Mundo is barely played anymore. Shen is barely played anymore. Hecarim doesn't honestly qualify as a tank because he is far more useful than that.

ExecutorDill1 votes

Garen has great regen on passive, he also takes %reduced damage with shield as well as increase his def bonus stats passively, does good AOE damage in teamfights and can silence as well as shut down valuable targets. Plus his base stays are fairly tanky.

Seems more like a tank to me> Garen

Kingsgrave1 votes

{quoted}

Garen has great regen on passive, he also takes %reduced damage with shield as well as increase his def bonus stats passively, does good AOE damage in teamfights and can silence as well as shut down valuable targets. Plus his base stays are fairly tanky.

Seems more like a tank to me> Garen

Hes more of a failed bruiser than anything else honestly. His kit was designed for him to elimiate the ability for a target to escape, Silence, always be able to continue fighting even from poke, Passive, make up for the fact that he is melee, W, and destroy a target completely with what used to be a high damage ultimate, an Execute.

If he was brought up to modern design philosophies he would be akin to Darius in terms of role, a Bruiser.

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