Extremely disappointed by Meddler's answer about top lane

Ahristocats·Jan 24, 2018·80 votes·5,115 views

like what happened to bruiser's itemization being the most expensive itemization when they all suck ** in late game and deal as much damage as nunu?

edit: actually disappointed so much

you decided to nerf ornn unstoppable feature, which was totally what made him untradeable against kleptomancy got nerfed which was a good idea BUT PRESS THE ATTACK NEEDS A BUFF meddler's post talks about the state of top lane, but never mentioned the hellish life of bruisers:

-get outtraded by tanks -get outscaled by tanks in teamfights -irrelevant late game damage while having the most expensive itemization -you buffed darius aatrox and renekton, but they're far from being good right now

109 Comments

TormentulaJan 24, 201828 votes

I don't think damage is an issue at all.

Just the fact juggernauts don't really handle mobility creep very well, and lack target access makes them too unreliable to do their job.

Like sure, Garen or Darius can be buffed to the point they shot me with an auto attack and be tanky, but how are they actually going to get on me to even land an auto attack? Caitlyn Ashe Lucian Jinx Xayah Vayne Varus Tristana Kalista (and i'm just mentioning ADCs...)

summoner 4 ?

EDIT: + tanks flat out do too much damage, juggernaut damage is fine, everything else needs toned down though.

LeviãthanJan 24, 20187 votes

{quoted}

I don't think damage is an issue at all.

Just the fact juggernauts don't really handle mobility creep very well, and lack target access makes them too unreliable to do their job.

Like sure, Garen or Darius can be buffed to the point they shot me with an auto attack and be tanky, but how are they actually going to get on me to even land an auto attack? (and i'm just mentioning ADCs...)

?

EDIT: + tanks flat out do too much damage, juggernaut damage is fine, everything else needs toned down though.

all these problems strted when they invented the rumble vest and got emplified after preseason because in the runes : key stones are not the best for bruisers + bruisers used to take mr runes and now they have less on that stat add that we used to have att damage + at speed in runes and now u can only take one the only alternative was clepto and it just got nerfed bruisers is a deadclass right now

RalanrJan 24, 201828 votes

Honestly top lane was starting to show its problems once teleport was nerfed.

OxyrottenJan 25, 20187 votes

It started to show it's problems around season 5. Nobody listened until season 6. Nobody cared until bramble was added in season 7, which drove a number of top players to quit.

Edit: Oh I just realized, Riot still doesn't care.

LeviãthanJan 25, 20183 votes

they allways said they are going to rework bruisers then " there is no time now we will do it later " and go on

Rayjay RedfangJan 25, 20182 votes

The grevious wounds mechanic needs a rework imo

SagaxwikiJan 26, 20181 votes

I should just be removed and healing mechanics balanced independently.

NineTailedMysticJan 25, 20185 votes

item 3800

Magic Wizard JoeJan 25, 20182 votes

Except that's an item for tanks. Are you going to build that on Wukong? No. Are you going to build that on Pantheon? No. You building that on Renekton? Garen? Irelia? Riven? No.

You know what happens when you do? You lose out on, in fact, tons of damage. Then... Congratulations you made it to the backline, Now what? You have no damage and you're still squishy. You die.

But if you don't build that item. You get rekt in lane by a tank or poke champ, you get rekt in team fights by tanks or shields, and heals, and cc. Unless you summoner 4 ... But then what? You gonna wait another 5 minutes until flash is up every time? (I'm looking at you riven may you rest in peace)

NineTailedMysticJan 25, 20181 votes

I could see it on all of those champions except Riven, actually. I've certainly thought about it on Garen, myself.

Magic Wizard JoeJan 26, 20181 votes

If you can see these items on anyone of those champions, Especially garen... Then you need to reevaluate the way you see items on this game.

NineTailedMysticJan 26, 20181 votes

If I need to run someone down, it's not like the wasted Mana will stop me from getting it. Just like how I'll get Frozen Heart vs Vayne if I need to.

DragonSheaJan 26, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I don't think damage is an issue at all.

Just the fact juggernauts don't really handle mobility creep very well, and lack target access makes them too unreliable to do their job.

Like sure, Garen or Darius can be buffed to the point they shot me with an auto attack and be tanky, but how are they actually going to get on me to even land an auto attack? (and i'm just mentioning ADCs...)

?

EDIT: + tanks flat out do too much damage, juggernaut damage is fine, everything else needs toned down though.

Damage needs to be adjusted like you said. I don't mind if a champ is mobile AF as long as them getting caught nets you a kill 98 out of 100 times. I don't mind tanks having good base damage as long as their damage scaling sucks so they can focus on getting tank items. juggs apart from morde have so-so gap closers and range so I think that is a fair trade off for damage and tankyness.

Wukong AirlinesJan 24, 201816 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1ILoBX8cVI

AhristocatsJan 24, 201823 votes

LOL accurate

jesus, why are bruisers paying 13000 gold to get a shitty late game power when adcs pay 11000 gold and are gods in late game

Fizz AkabaneJan 24, 20186 votes

https://youtu.be/juoJ9G9MNHA?t=7m58s imo dont quote hashinshin lel

AhristocatsJan 24, 201813 votes

I'm surprised that you decided to post on your main account i wonder what you did for your smurf to get banned

never the less don't post things that are unrelated to posts/threads, thank you

Fizz AkabaneJan 24, 20185 votes

https://i.gyazo.com/426f942c7ae9e7f3c51a31821e92a622.png unlucky https://ih1.redbubble.net/image.427647207.7122/ap,550x550,12x16,1,transparent,t.png

This is related to post tho, u should never quote hashinshin because he wants to dive a 3/4 HP Tabi Jayce with no lead at all as "bruiser" :]

AhristocatsJan 24, 20188 votes

no it **ing isn't?

i don't care about what he did that day in that game, the words he pronounced made sense and were perfectly accurate to the situation of the game right now. the words which were said cannot be influenced by something that happened one day

bruisers itemization is a huge problem right now, anyone in my home would understand that a class sucking in late game having the most expensive itemization makes no sense

Fizz AkabaneJan 24, 20184 votes

So...: Mids can pick Malzahar or others too, and spam killing mid wave with Ryze Azir Malz Taliyah Syndra,... has been the meta for a long time now while assassins arent allowed to be played. Who is complaining about that except me?

Items like Trinity, Steraks and Titanic are A LOT stronger 1 item spikes than cheap attack speed/crit items. Of course they are gonna be more expensive. Maybe they can get -100-200 gold, maybe not, but they should be more expensive.

Mages beat everything. Everything. Mages number 1, everything else doesnt matter. How about you play an assassin, lose lane, and get outscaled because mages teamfight better?

Adrian Riven still spams top lane and plays bruisers only at rank 45, Irelia carries u also still spams Irelia, so.. so much for that Twitter conversation. Ive just looked at many high elo top laners and they play bruisers like Camille, Riven, Nasus, Illaoi, Irelia or Jax a lot. Meanwhile, Ive seen three people playing mid lane assassins at all, http://euw.op.gg/summoner/userName=scarletredhands who plays mostly mages, http://www.op.gg/summoner/userName=ysdgqxcj who also doesnt main Fizz and http://www.op.gg/summoner/userName=bvoy this guy who plays Kassadin with the new AP support item which Im scared of now xd

AhristocatsJan 24, 20188 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fizz Akabane,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EAiPLZjs,comment-id=0003000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2018-01-24T19:50:17.174+0000)

So...: Mids can pick Malzahar or others too, and spam killing mid wave with Ryze Azir Malz Taliyah Syndra,... has been the meta for a long time. Assassins arent allowed to be played. Who is complaining about that except me?

irrelevant to the discussion

Items like Trinity, Steraks and Titanic are A LOT stronger 1 item spikes than cheap attack speed/crit items. Of course they are gonna be more expensive. Maybe they can get -100-200 gold, maybe not, but they should be more expensive.

IT DOESNT MATTER you're investing way more gold on a champion that will use this gold poorly later in the game

it's as hash said, unless you're 5 kills ahead on top you will be behind compared to other champions in the game

Mages beat everything. Everything. Mages number 1, everything else doesnt matter. How about you play an assassin, lose lane, and get outscaled because mages teamfight better?

irrelevant to the discussion

Adrian Riven still spams top lane and plays bruisers only, rank 45, Irelia carries u also still spams Irelia, so.. so much for that Twitter conversation. Ive just looked at many high elo top laners and they play bruisers like Camille, Riven, Nasus, Illaoi, Irelia or Jax. Meanwhile, Ive seen three people playing mid lane assassins at all, http://euw.op.gg/summoner/userName=scarletredhands who plays mostly mages, http://www.op.gg/summoner/userName=ysdgqxcj who also doesnt main Fizz at all and http://www.op.gg/summoner/userName=bvoy this guy who plays Kassadin with the new AP support item which Im scared of now xd

i looked at many high elo top laners, and they only play ranged toplaners camille and tanks

look at my match history and tell me where you saw something else

Fizz AkabaneJan 24, 20182 votes

Mid would be irrelevant to the discussion, but assassins have suffered more AND for a longer time than bruisers (many bruisers were good in season 7, its been preseason now and Riot is already trying to change it). So its pretty triggering to see everyone go crazy over bruisers while https://i.gyazo.com/4318100ae6c3e729176dd8792e328080.png as per usual, since literally season 4-3 minus maybe a few patches where assassin were good but that quickly got fixed again lol.

So what do you think should happen? 2500 gold cost on item 3078 item 3748 or 3900 gold cost on item 3094 so that bruisers have cheaper items than the late game class? Both seem ridiculous to me and I am complaining about the 3600 -> 3400 item 3031 xd

What I found by looking at the ~top 8 players in the 3 big regions are http://euw.op.gg/summoner/userName=sâtorius http://euw.op.gg/summoner/userName=jiiss3 http://euw.op.gg/summoner/userName=enevz http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=cris http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=tfbíade http://www.op.gg/summoner/userName=sktt1thai http://www.op.gg/summoner/userName=pi9 etc. playing bruisers.

In your games I see a bruiser almost every game Mordekaiser hehe

AhristocatsJan 24, 201810 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fizz Akabane,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EAiPLZjs,comment-id=000300000000000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2018-01-24T20:01:25.613+0000)

Mid would be irrelevant to the discussion, but assassins have suffered more AND for a longer time than bruisers

that's still irrelevant to the discussion

if assassins suffering impacted the state of bruisers it would have been relevant

So what do you think should happen? 2500 gold cost on or 3900 gold cost on so that bruisers have cheaper items than the late game class? Both seem ridiculous to me and I am complaining about the 3600 -> 3400 xd

Neither of those 3700 gold on triforce is the classic and should remain like that sterak should not cost 3200 titanic hydra should not cost 3500 gold are you fcking serious hydra costs more than infinity edge?

In your games I see a bruiser almost every game hehe

if you see me building a single bruiser item then my brain is not working well

also, i don't have time to check all those opgg, i checked the first saw camille spammed and was enough for me to stop camille working is not a definition of bruisers being fine

Yaśuo MainJan 24, 201812 votes

pls don't reply to him, he's doing the thing where he says something just as wrong and will continue to do so until you stop replying. ive learned to deal with it before and its still just as god damn annoying now but his hate boner for hashin is keeping this up

Critmaster GarenJan 24, 20187 votes

[{quoted}](name=I am Rubick Sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EAiPLZjs,comment-id=0003000000000000000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2018-01-24T20:23:15.671+0000) Neither of those 3700 gold on triforce is the classic and should remain like that sterak should not cost 3200 titanic hydra should not cost 3500 gold are you fcking serious hydra costs more than infinity edge?

id actually rather see crit itemization get hit with a massive price increase than bruiser items to be reduced in cost too much.

it seems like every price reduction on offensive items, and every buff to lategame scaling champions like Jinx this patch is a terrible idea and will contribute to making games shorter and more snowbally.

if im honest, i didnt like the Veigar w buff either. even the Nasus buff with the reduced q cooldown on his ult left a bitter taste in my mouth back then. i didnt complain, because nasus was hot garbage at the time, but the buff was clearly aimed at making him more effective earlier on in the game, rather than to improve his scaling into lategame.

wasnt the entire reason nasus was so bad, because games just became too short for him to ever scale in the first place even when he did have the potential? maybe they should have fixed that overarching problem with the game, that affected the power scaling of all lategame champions instead.

marksmen items are too cheap. period. bruiser items arent far off the price of mage items if you take item 3089 into account, or even tank items.

assassin items are pretty cheap (maybe slightly too cheap) but hilariously still slightly more expensive than crit items.

its really just marksmen items in relation to other carry itemization that is out of whack.

id say yes. just make zeal items 2900 gold. im aware, that this is a lot but appropriate just for how strongly they scale. just hit the problem head on, and nerf crit builds to lategame builds again.

AaravosJan 24, 20189 votes

Sterak should maybe, but Titanic should't be cheaper than what it is right now. It's Infinity what should be more expensive.

btw i wiould gladly welcome a 3900 g item 3094 and item 3087 . I would be content if marksmans would be totally unviable.

AaravosJan 24, 20182 votes

Which bruiser was good in s7? The only bruisers i remember is an overtuned Camille , Fiora as a counter to her, and well Fizz . Maybe some other were strong after mid season when they overtuned DD, but they quickly released Bramble what fucked every AA based top laner.

Assasins and bruisers are both struggling for long now because of similar reasons. They got beaten on lane, then they got outscaled by their opponents in teamfights, while supports shutting down their spikes with their extremely overtuned, broken piece of shit shields, leaving no place for them in this once awesome game.

Fizz AkabaneJan 24, 20181 votes

Highest presence top lane picks in season 7 pro play: https://i.gyazo.com/e11bded2713bb3f9eec8e403a70ed979.png 5 bruisers with over 15% Meanwhile https://i.gyazo.com/ad6f1690b174ce0c09d910e12ae4a92e.png 1 assassin at 15% lel

AaravosJan 24, 20184 votes

The only bruiser i see there is Camille . Btw that wasn't the point of my comment, i agree assasins are struggling. But bruisers too, and riot does nothing. They just talking but not acting. Assasins and bruisers are in the same boat right now.

Gallows madnessJan 25, 20182 votes

Look I main bruisers and I can say that kleptomancy was taken so bruisers would reach late game quicker Jax Nasus (nasus held a 56% win rate with klepto and coin) and I actually asked riot in a thread I made if they can not touch nasus till after the changes to coin and his winrate just today alone dropped 6% because of the 2 indirect nerfs to him.. Other bruisers who abused klepto (still do are) Fiora Illaoi do I abuse it on them? yes. >-< I've been having too much fun with it.

Anyways if bruiser items were cheaper in cost they would be more abused by ad casters and trust me when I say this because mid game for bruisers would wreck havoc if they ever got there items cheaper trust me.

I feel that the new rune meddler will put in will fix a lot of the bruisers problems (they are making up for fervor) which made a huge impact for bruisers damage and I want to see where they will go with it and I'll make a thread how I honestly feel about it when it comes out to pbe

Don't rant about bruiser items till after the rune comes out it may put bruisers more stronger than tanks (just a prediction) but I may be wrong because as well this is only an opinion.

[sg-soraka] thanks for reading <3 have a good day

OxyrottenJan 25, 20183 votes

So why does Hashinshin get to call Riot out on their bullshit but I get downvoted and flamed into oblivion every time I point out Riot's lies?

Also he missed a point, the post did address ranged creep aggro. In fact if I had to say, the entire point of the post was to highlight the ranged aggro change as a "we did something for you top, now shut up and go away".

Although I do appreciate the ranged aggro change.

Edit: I'm sorry Riot I didn't mean it, please don't neglect us more.

Milton FletcherJan 24, 201815 votes

answers?

95 percent of the thread by meddler was bullshit that doesnt actually exist.

to say that some of his shit made sense in the current game is to say the balance team is very good at their job.

they didnt do SHIT for bruisers other than sugercoat as usual and say "soon"

its been 3 years.

3 FUCKING years of this shit.

Critmaster GarenJan 24, 20188 votes

im, not sure the problem is tanks. is a darius not able to take down a maokai anymore after he bought a cleaver and a visage? im pretty sure he just gets stacked on the mao and then destroys him. if were just comparing bruisers to tanks, then in extended fights they usually have the upper hand after a certain point in their builds.

ornn is more of an exception, because hes just loaded with % hp damage, which is pretty dumb i agree.

but bruisers usually outscale tanks and i havent had an issue to fight a tank one on one with a bruiser by midgame anymore even if some of them are stronger early on.

the problem is more that tanks are safer and more effective teamfight picks than bruisers, due to how effective protect the marksmen comps are, thanks to just how fucking overpowered marksmen are at the moment. they scale too quickly and too hard, and there is too much potential gold generation on bot lane with turret first blood and the removal of bot lane fortification already since season 6.

the issue isnt that bruisers cant fight or take down tanks in extended traded (yes i know, in the early lane phase tanks often outtrade, but bruisers usually start to outtrade after two items), its more that while a bruiser gets walled off by one or multiple tanks in larger fights, the bruiser gets shred to pieces by the enemy backline too fast and there isnt really an answer for this.

all they need to do is to hit you with cc for a couple seconds which the marksman uses to just blow you to pieces, partially because hes further into his power scaling than he should be.

the tank doesnt need to win lane or get ahead to be effective if the target that theyre supporting is strong enough.

youre correct that bruiser itemization is expensive. but im more worried about how much cheaper and how much more effective adc itemization is compared to bruiser itemization, than comparing bruisers to tanks.

GayFluffyUnicornJan 24, 201814 votes

The problem is twofold. One: Botlane is fuckin OVERPOWERED. I really really really want people to finally fuckin understand how OVERPOWERED BOTLANE really is. As hash says in his video, to be on par with a botlane you basically need to be 5/0 toplane. I'm not going into specifics, it has been said a thousand times. ADCs scale way too fast way too good many supports, especially the likes of lulu and janna have overpowered kits invalidating any melee champ. Shields, healing everything is too high. Two: Bruiser CAN deal with adc IF they get ahead and snowball because their items are too expensive and too garbage to deal with adcs later on otherwise if they don't snowball. Now tanks are so frickin overpowered you simply cannot snowball against a tank and get stonewalled. Until you reach your powerspike the adc has outscaled you already so hard you can't even 1v1 them anymore at all unless he is a mechanical cripple which isn't the classes fault.

So we have a few options: Nerf tanks so that fighter can snowball and take games over again. Nerf fuckin botlane already. Buff bruiser itemization costs.

For me the best solution would be to just nerf botlane. If tanks can't hold lanes at all anymore noone is going to play them and we go back to uninteractive nautilus spamming E waveclear if at all. I do believe tanks should have a place. They should lose some early power tho and not win by default just because.

Just nerf botlane, give bruiser a decent rune path and keystone and we are pretty much settled. Oh also give melees fuckin magic resist already, there is no reason i lose the 1v1 to a tali who just spams Q two times and i'm dead.

People with their fuckin adc in 2k17 lul don't realize that back then the top challenger player was already an adc main (upset on euw) and people 4 manned botlane BECAUSE ADCs were fuckin overpowered and noone wanted them to get rolling and ALSO because firstblood turrets bonus gold was bonkers high hence why people came up with ziggs botlane. Getting a 1k lead from the turret alone was insane. It's not the items fault riot snowballed the game so hard crit adcs never found the time to scale at all. Now adcs have more than enough protection from supports, nerf the gold cost back, remove the energized interaction and either nerf shivs waveclear or champ burst dmg. I think with these few tweaks the game could be kinda balanced.

H1 H0w are YaJan 24, 20187 votes

I play Darius and Riven and don't seem to have a problem mid or late game damage wise. Where is everybody getting this issue from?

RalanrJan 24, 201810 votes

Against tanks I believe.

H1 H0w are YaJan 24, 20185 votes

Both of those champs nuke tanks though?

RalanrJan 24, 201825 votes

I’ve heard that Riven is actually bad against tanks.

ApocalypsicJan 24, 20188 votes

{quoted}

I’ve heard that Riven is actually bad against tanks.

Riven's answer to tanks is literally not to fight them ever

It's boring as shit.

Kingslayer RivenJan 28, 20181 votes

honestly

Automated RivenJan 24, 201811 votes

{quoted}

I’ve heard that Riven is actually bad against tanks.

Riven is pretty awful against tanks with a brain right now.

RalanrJan 24, 201810 votes

That explains why I suck against Riven.

Of course, my brain stops working due to fear.

ApocalypsicJan 24, 20187 votes

{quoted}

That explains why I suck against Riven.

Of course, my brain stops working due to fear.

Also because you play Sion, who Riven can easily outmaneuver and who also isn't an overloaded piece of shit.

Whisper87Jan 24, 20186 votes

They nuke tanks if they get a lead. I play quite a bit of Maokai top and I have no problem laning against Riven or Darius. The problem is that Tanks outscale Riven and Darius. Like late game a 5 item Maokai can 1v1 a 5 item Riven, and prior to that point Maokai has a kit that lets him farm and disengage safely so unless he gets greedy he just doesn't die and outscales and before he outscales he has a point in the mid game where he just becomes better in team fights because of the value in his kit (It having 3 forms of hard CC and a slow, not to mention two of those three can actually hit multiple targets, and all 3 are easy to land).

Similar deal with Orn, give him 2 HP/Armor items combined with Ninja Tabi and he will hit a point where he takes laughable damage from a Riven and pumps out %HP damage to someone building little resistance. If you go like Hexdrinker after Cleaver you might be able to delay this turning point in power by an extra item or half item.

Here's the deal. No one is saying that at lvl 3 or lvl 6 a Maokai poops on a Riven in a duel. The problem is that the strongest tanks typically can lane fairly safely against pretty much anything, and their scaling makes them bears to deal with starting partway through the mid game. The window to poop on them and snowball before they become monsters is a little small right now considering how much better they are in the latter parts of the game. That's the issue.

Think of it as the same problem bottom lane Lucian has. I mean yeah his early game and lane dueling is still better than most ADC's, but it's just that it's not strong enough to justify playing him considering how hard he gets outscaled.

I played a Maokai top the other day against Riven, she killed me once in lane, but in general it was mostly farm lane. After our outers went down we enter team fight stage. Here's where the problem arises. At Ninja Tabi combined with Righteous Glory, Firecape, and a Kindlegem, I could pretty much go even with Riven in duels, ending her side lane pressure. Team fight? I just pop Righteous Glory and hit R, didn't use Flash or W until Riven joined the fight at which point I just point and click root her before she can get to my back line. Even if she flanked it didn't matter too much cuz my ult so wide and I saved 100% of my flashes specifically to flash root her if needed. Mao doesn't have to poop on her cuz he just lives through the early game and can shut her or Darius down while the team kills them.

NemeBroJan 24, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Like late game a 5 item Maokai can 1v1 a 5 item Riven

I sincerely doubt this, but I'm not one to claim something without proof, being neither a Riven main nor a Maokai player. Luckily I have a Riven main friend who is willing to do a custom game with me to see if this is indeed the case. I'll play Maokai since he is so braindead anyone could.

What Riven keystone would you suggest?

ApocalypsicJan 24, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I sincerely doubt this, but I'm not one to claim something without proof, being neither a Riven main nor a Maokai player. Luckily I have a Riven main friend who is willing to do a custom game with me to see if this is indeed the case. I'll play Maokai since he is so braindead anyone could.

What Riven keystone would you suggest?

Fervor, the one that enabled her to fight tanks in a sustained bout.

NemeBroJan 24, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Umbral Torment,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EAiPLZjs,comment-id=000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2018-01-24T23:15:54.749+0000)

Fervor, the one that enabled her to fight tanks in a sustained bout.

She didn't need fervor. She killed me with Electrocute.

item 3074 item 3047 item 3812 item 3071 item 3156 item 3033

item 3068 item 3047 item 3075 item 3025 item 3065 item 3193

It wasn't even close. I didn't even proc her maw. It did take a while though, so it's unlikely to happen in a normal game.

Brain Errör 404Jan 24, 20183 votes

You have iceborn, which is not really a good buy on maokai. Swap it out for righteous glory, which is what you'll normally get. Secondly, she has BC and LW -- which is normally 2 items she normally would not get together. You'd have to swap LW out for a GA, even though you would need the mortal to 1v1. However, you'd expect your ADC to have it, which makes you getting it redundant and unnecessary as it costs you your utility of GA.

At any point, being a Riven main, I can agree that you will beat Maokai later on in the game 1v1... however, fighting him (given the time it takes to kill him) will never be worth the time. By the time yo uget him to half health, his team will have enough time to run from the enemy nexus back to their nexus.

Kingslayer RivenJan 28, 20181 votes

At this point im running grasp into every tank lane for the sake of scaling and not being outsustained in lane

Automated RivenJan 25, 20183 votes

{quoted}

I sincerely doubt this, but I'm not one to claim something without proof, being neither a Riven main nor a Maokai player. Luckily I have a Riven main friend who is willing to do a custom game with me to see if this is indeed the case. I'll play Maokai since he is so braindead anyone could.

What Riven keystone would you suggest?

This is actually correct. If you have a standard bruiser riven build Mao beats her late game. W/ thornmail and passive. She can win, but it's not really in her favor.

And even if you win your forced to build suboptimaly and you may win a 1v1 in a vacuum but you don't actually win the map. IE it's literally impossible for riven to create pressure on the map against moakai. The team is not pressured into stopping her push because she has no threat. She can't even shove up to tier two tower because it's 4000* more dangerous to do that compared to the 'pressure' she would hypothetically be applying.

So your option is to shove and team fight where Mao has a huge advantage.