Support really should have Sightstone as a manditory purchase

JavelinJoe··6 votes·888 views

I know it is not a well liked concept of a forced item, but seriously, it is that important of an item. Supports by definition are meant to assist the team. Mainly it is done by adding utility, vision, CC, and maybe a defensive front line, but is is not meant to be a carry role. Carry supports are a contradiction all together. You cant support while trying to be the carry. It just doesn't work. If you do not want to be the support, then don't queue as one. If you get auto filled, then either dodge, ask to swap roles with someone else, or suck it up and support for a game. It is literally the easiest role to play.

Now, many of you will ask one or more of the following questions:

  • **"But what if we swap roles, won't I still have to build the Sightstone since I was drafted as the support"? **
    • Its a good question, and I offer a good solution. Allow for role swapping in champion select. That way whoever is decided to be playing the support for the team, has the Sightstone.
  • "How would you ensure that said support actually builds one"?
  • Easy. You are only allowed 1 full item and tier 2 boots before you are forced to build a Sightstone. If at level 9 the do not have a Sightstone, but have the gold for one, on return to base one will be purchased automatically and the rest of the items become available. If you do not have the gold yet, you will be unable to purchase anything else besides up to 5 health pots and 2 control wards starting once you reach level 9. If you are past level 9 and sell / refund an item without having a Sightstone, one will be purchased automatically if the returned gold gives you exactly or more than the amount needed to purchase a Sightstone. (note that you would be unable to sell the Sightstone as the support).
  • "Why should the Support have to be the one to build the Sightstone?"
  • Simple. You are the support, meaning your role's main function is to provide the utility for the team's carry roles to succeed upon, which includes vision control. Also, you have the Luxury of building a gold generating support item which can build into a Sightstone. While yes these items are open to all, no other role can utilize them as well as other, more standard, non-support starting items. They usually are more of an alternative if you desperately need the gold gen, and usually only bought by the mid laner (besides the support obviously).
  • "What if another role builds one, like the Jungler?"
  • Good for them. Now your team has 2 Sightstones. They can sell theirs, but you must keep yours.
  • "Everyone has trinkets, shouldn't that be more than enough?"
  • Nope. It will never be enough unless the enemy team also follow that mindset which is almost guaranteed to not happen, so stop using it as an excuse.
  • "But what if I don't wanna build one?"
  • Too bad. The rest of the team doesn't want to play a game without vision. You are the support, and it would be your job now to build one. The role is not called "The Other Bot Lane Carry", it is called "Support".
  • "What if I just don't use it anyways?"
  • While true that no one can "make" you use it, if the only reason that you are not is just out of spite, than that is being a toxic teammate. Basically it comes down to this. You have to have it, so you might as well use it, and it does not hurt you to do so, so you might as well.

(EDIT:) This could be a ranked only thing too

48 Comments

Rewt6 votes

this is just a terrible idea. This takes away agency from a player. You think people hate playing support now? imagine how they feel when the game literally shoves its fist up their ass and says "You are buying a sightstone whether you like it or not."

This is just a bad idea in every way. Sometimes situation calls for you to build another item instead of SS and you have to delay it. Its not so cut and dry that you should immediately just get SS. Supports get so little gold especially with the nerf to ancient coin that this is just a stupid idea. Supports would be held hostage and be unable to really play the game because they cant itemize properly to actually play the game.

Edit: and if you care so much about SS. why dont you buy one?

JavelinJoe1 votes

ADC has the most expensive build paths. Usually requiring multiple items for them to fulfill their role on the team and win their lane. Supports are almost always in the duo lane with the ADC. Also, what about how Jungler champions (save Ivern) need Smite in order to buy any of the jungle items? It is basically the same principle.

Also, You can get a full item and tier 2 boots. But you should have sight stone before your second item in general.

Rewt3 votes

You reference the pricing of ADC build path. But do you know the pricing of the Support build path? its not cheap either. its around 2800 gold per item average. And now with the itemization changes to support items supports make less money than they did before making these paths even harder to reach. You just dont seem to get it. Support while being a supportive role isnt your teams bitch who has to disregard his own play just to help you. Often when i play Thresh I will get a Spirits Visage and a Thornmail (if my adc feeds) before I even buy SS. And it allows me to actually frontline for my team. If i had to buy SS (800g) that would set my second item back like 8min.

JavelinJoe1 votes

Most core ADC damage items are 3k+. The most being item 3078 (3733) and item 3072 (3700).

Every gold generation item's highest tier is less than 2.5k (2.4k is highest, 1.9k is cheapest).

item 3144 (1.5k) alone is 100 gold shy of item 2045 (1.6k).

Now, how is 2800 gold per item the average cost of a support item? item 3190 - 2200 item 3107 - 2100 item 2049 - 800 item 2045 - 1600 item 2303 - 2300 item 2302 - 1900 item 2301 - 2200 item 3092 - 2200 item 3401 - 2200 item 3069 - 2400 item 3109 - 2300 item 3222 - 2100 item 3504 - 2300 item 3050 - 2250 item 3060 - 2200 item 3512 - 2700 item 3174 - 2100 item 3116 - 2600 item 3025 - 2700 item 3110 - 2700 item 3102 - 2700 item 3075 - 2350 item 3001 - 2800 <----- equal to 2800 item 3065 - 2800 <----- equal to 2800 item 3068 - 2900 <----- greater than 2800 item 3083 - 2850 <----- greater than 2800 item 3143 - 2900 <------ greater than 2800

total gold cost: 63150 total items: 27 average item cost = 2339 gold

Yeah no. Your 2800 is way too high for the average support build items cost with only 5 average support items equal to or greater than 2800.

Now to compare this with average ADC build items costs: item 3153 - 3400 item 3031 - 3400 item 3508 - 3400 item 3812 - 3500 item 3139 - 3600 item 3072 - 3700 item 3156 - 3250 item 3078 - 3733 item 3814 - 3100 item 3147 - 3250 item 3124 - 3600 item 3142 - 2900 item 3046 - 2600 item 3094 - 2600 item 3085 - 2600 item 3087 - 2600 item 3036 - 2600 item 3033 - 2400 item 3004 - 2400 item 3026 - 2400

total gold cost: 61033 total items: 20 average item cost = 3052 gold

2339 < 3052

Ark Sorcerer3 votes

Thanks. Another reason for me to see why Marksmen players think they are the most important selection in the game.

JavelinJoe1 votes

No, just pointing out your great overestimation of the average support item costs and to show you just how expensive an ADC's build item average is to prove my point.

Fun fact, if we remove the default Sightstone from the total average item value, you are left with 2398. 3052-2398 = 654 or about 150 shy of a Sightstone's 800 gold cost.

Also, nothing builds out of item 1055 (450) which is one of the common starting items for ADCs and is 100 gold more than the standard support's standard starting items (350). Just an observation.

Ark Sorcerer2 votes

I never said support items are expensive. I know this. What I do know is that marksmen players act as if they are the most important class in the game even though they are the dps of the game. That was all. You claiming how expensive marksmen items are one reason why these players act the way they do.

JavelinJoe1 votes

do you know the pricing of the Support build path? its not cheap either.

While yes, you never said they were expensive, you did say they were not cheap. Yet they likely have the cheapest build paths of all the roles. I know that many think that ADCs think they are important, and while it is true many do, they are not entirely without reason. ADCs have no good alternative build paths besides offensive. It is a poorly designed class of champions who need 3-4 damage and attack speed/crit items to keep being relevant in the mid-late game.

Offering almost no utility or defensive stats, ADCs need damage/DPS. So where a support could be 2 levels under and an item behind and still be relevant in fights because of their utility (good example being Thresh), and ADC would just die easily or do almost nothing over the course of the fight.

I do thought think it more is about how important gold is to them, than how important they believe they are compared to everyone else. It just often comes out wrong.

And for the record, I main both ADC and SUPPORT.

Ark Sorcerer1 votes

I do not know where you got that quote from, doubt it is me. If it was, then it was months ago. Even though you are not claiming that marksmen are not the most important class, you still fail to see the other sides to it. I do not care to argue how mages are the same. The have utility but they have skill shots, something that can miss and ruin their damage. Nor will I argue that marksmen have auto attacks and crits. Won't argue. I will argue that you are not seeing the whole picture. You are just looking are marksmen. Why else would you suggest that in title?

Also, Banshee's Veil is now an AP item. You may want to mix your list.

JavelinJoe1 votes

Right wrong person (having 2 conversations).

Also I never even said anything about marksmen in my original post

I still see a decent amount of champions build item 3102 when going support so I left it in.

Ark Sorcerer1 votes

Mhmm. You multitask and have two conversations, I will just sit at the corner.

Imperial Pandaa1 votes

{quoted}

Also, nothing builds out of item 1055 (450) which is one of the common starting items for ADCs and is 100 gold more than the standard support's standard starting items (350). Just an observation.

This is true, but if you are one who goes item 3153 first, then some are startingitem 1036 and buying extra pots.

JavelinJoe1 votes

I have seen that before, and while I can see the desire, I would say Doran's Blade is still a bit more common. But valid point.

Rewt3 votes

Now lets compare this to gold income. Supports. Passive gold gain. thats it..... they removed the 1 gold when a minion dies from bandit. and nerfed ancient coin. So either you are melee and go with relic shield or you go spelltheifs.

Now lets compare this to an ADC. they get to kill minions. Congrats. You gain gold at a rate upwards of 40x the support. Now you can buy your more expensive items and once you hit 3 full items the support might have finished boots and like spirits visage

JavelinJoe1 votes

3052-2339 = 713, basically you need 2 and some kill's worth of gold (with about 300 gold per average kill) to make up the average gold difference. (Typical ratio is about 15 minions = 1 kill's worth of gold)

Now assuming you do not miss a single minion (which is very unlikely) You should make that amount of gold in 6 waves or 30 minions (32 including the 2 cannon minions).

So for every 1 minion's worth of gold the support gets (20-ish gold), ADCs need about 30-32 (600-700is gold) of them to keep up with the average price gap. So even if item 3301 gold gen was lowered, you still will make enough from those 6 waves to maintain the average.

Also, the typical ADC first item is 3400 gold. For the same amount, a support could get any of the starting item's tier 3 build, tier 2 boots, and have ab good start on the 800 for a Sightstone. The one exception being item 3069 and any 1100 gold boots.

Imperial Pandaa1 votes

{quoted}

You know why support style items are so much cheaper when compared to damage items?

It is because supports aren't making as much gold as the ad.

But, uh, supports have gold generating items.

Whooppee! A whole 2 gold every 10 seconds pending additional effect. Which mind you, have cds or put at risk. Most support basically have to take Bandit (maybe I'm wrong with this one) just to get some extra cash flow.

Meanwhile, the ad is farming creeps which is what? 10-40 gold (Accounting for all the types there minus super) While the support is also trying to keep you alive and feed you kills.

Maybe I am being a salty support main, maybe not.

JavelinJoe1 votes

3052-2339 = 713, basically you need 2 and some kill's worth of gold (with about 300 gold per average kill) to make up the average gold difference. (Typical ratio is about 15 minions = 1 kill's worth of gold)

Now assuming you do not miss a single minion (which is very unlikely) You should make that amount of gold in 6 waves or 30 minions (32 including the 2 cannon minions).

So for every 1 minion's worth of gold the support gets (20-ish gold), ADCs need about 30-32 (600-700is gold) of them to keep up with the average price gap. So even if gold gen was lowered, you still will make enough from those 6 waves to maintain the average.

Also, the typical ADC first item is 3400 gold. For the same amount, a support could get any of the starting item's tier 3 build, tier 2 boots, and have ab good start on the 800 for a Sightstone. The one exception being and any 1100 gold boots.

Imperial Pandaa1 votes

{quoted}

ADC has the most expensive build paths. Usually requiring multiple items for them to fulfill their role on the team and win their lane. Supports are almost always in the duo lane with the ADC. Also, what about how Jungler champions (save Ivern) need Smite in order to buy any of the jungle items? It is basically the same principle.

Also, You can get a full item and tier 2 boots. But you should have sight stone before your second item in general.

So? Let me guess, you don't want to invest in a 800 gp item item 3123 to counter a healing support like Soraka Sona ? Oh wait... item 3123 is the same price as item 2049 ? You mean if I don't have to counter a healing support I could buy my own sight stone?

Also, your "build" price is biased. Actually I'll add to that one.

JavelinJoe1 votes

I always build item 3123 into sona/soraka/healing comps. Sometimes even before I finish my first full item and defiantly before my second full item.

Imperial Pandaa4 votes

Why don't you just build one then? It gives you hp to help you live longer AND you get to provide vision to the team!

JavelinJoe1 votes

ADC has the most expensive build paths. Usually requiring multiple items for them to fulfill their role on the team and win their lane. Supports are almost always in the duo lane with the ADC. Also, what about how Jungler champions (save Ivern) need Smite in order to buy any of the jungle items? It is basically the same principle.

Also, You can get a full item and tier 2 boots. But you should have sight stone before your second item in general.

Mecha MaIphite4 votes

It would feel awfully wonky to force someone to build an item. Even with stuff like jungle items that are exclusive to a role, you're not actually forced to build them. Same goes for support and sightstone; no matter how important it is, forcing someone to build it would feel unnatural (especially considering those "supports" probably wouldn't ward much anyway).

Just sit back, and let natural selection do its thing.

JavelinJoe1 votes

Just sit back, and let natural selection do its thing.

I still would like to win. Which is significantly harder without vision.

Imperial Pandaa3 votes

{quoted}

You cant support while trying to be the carry. It just doesn&#039;t work. If you do not want to be the support, then >don&#039;t queue as one. If you get auto filled, then either dodge, ask to swap roles with someone else, or suck it up and >support for a game. It is literally the easiest role to play.

The greatest CC of all, is death. The utility of a carry support is that the enemy will die even faster (plus whatever cc is in kit).

Is it easy? In some aspects, yes. Then again, I can say that about any position. Are some support champs braindead? Some, yes. Once again, I can say the same about over champs and positions too. It is a double edged blade for supports. If they are feeding the ad then no recognition, except maybe from the ad. If they take the kill, then they get blamed for ksing and messing everything up. You know how many ad's I come across who all they need to do is farm the wave but instead decided to over extend, step into cc, and die? I could say ad is the easiest position cause all they need to do is last hit. I know that isn't all though. I understand the problems that laning holds.

I am thinking of trying Smite Ivern support and building a trackers knife instead of sightstone. How would your system compromise for that? Or would it make me have both vision items?

JavelinJoe2 votes

item 2049 builds into item 3711

S0kaX1 votes

{quoted}

item 2049 builds into item 3711

Since when?

JavelinJoe1 votes

My bad, thought it did.

Still though, it is a jungle item that can function as a Sightstone essentially.

Chønklord2 votes

#Great idea! And let's also make it so everyone else on the team starts to slowly lose HP from their health bars over time if they don't place their trinkets on the map right away when off of cooldown.  

##And I think if the bot lane carry doesn't deal X amount of damage by a certain timeframe, their champion should instantly explode like a teemo shroom, and all their items are returned to the shop and the gold difference is given to the support player.

Also the support player should automatically start with 2k gold, boots, and sightstone provides %hp true damage on all their abilities.

Majki2 votes

Mandatory* (manditory isn't a word bro).

peace out

JavelinJoe1 votes

Saw that but could not change it

Majki1 votes

Grammar Nazi loses all dignity and leaves the room with a long sigh. summoner 6

S0kaX1 votes

Um, so force players to build something that they might not even use, also coordonating the wards with your adc and buying control wards can ensure the vision until mid-late game, then everyone have wards and if not enough that's the time you should buy sightstone.

JavelinJoe1 votes

also coordonating the wards with your adc and buying control wards can ensure the vision until mid-late game

The first part is great. ADCs should buy control wards and help ward key areas, as well as the rest of the team. But 5 wards (10 if everyone places a control ward) is no where near enough coverage and does not allow for ward clearing with item 3341 item 3364. Also, having a Sightstone allows you to place wards mid fight for TPs or vision in near by brush that an enemy suddenly goes into. If you only rely on trinket wards, you will likely not have any available since you will need to place them immediately to maintain what small level of vision control they provide.

S0kaX1 votes

The same thing can happen with sightstone. You can have all sightstone wards placed, and because the enemy won't let you b you won't have wards in sightstone.

JavelinJoe1 votes

While true, you have a better chance to have a sight stone ward than a trinket ward because the items (besides default Sightstone) hold 4 wards and you can only have 3 out at a time per player.

Imperial Pandaa1 votes

{quoted}

While true, you have a better chance to have a sight stone ward than a trinket ward because the items (besides default Sightstone) hold 4 wards and you can only have 3 out at a time per player.

item 2049 Only holds 3 charges at once, not 4.

JavelinJoe1 votes

Reread the quote, I said that besides the default they hold 4

Imperial Pandaa1 votes

So does that mean, not only are you wanting to force item 2049 but also item 2303 item 2302 item 2301 and/or item 2045 . Instead item 3069 item 3401 item 3092. It should really be a matter of support type and pref.

Which I buy Ruby, once I have items worthwhile for the passive.

JavelinJoe1 votes

Nope Just item 2049 and you can build up to 1 full item and tier 2 boots before hand.

JustJayson1 votes

Can not force players to buy a particular item. It is an item that should be purchased at some point during the game before laning phase ends. As a support main its something that I always build. As a support player I am not annoyed by the handful of wards I can carry but the lack of warding contributed through vision wards by every position. Its a team game with vision and sightstone is but a small contributing factor. Trinkets and vision wards play a much larger part of the vision game than a sight stone, its just that most people refuse to buy them. If sightstone is mandatory then why not make vision wards mandatory and have it auto purchased on every recall?

Hige1 votes

I agree with you to a certain extent... forcing players to buy it might be bad but the cost of having a support with no sightstone is so high that it can warp a whole match against you.

it doesn't matter if the whole team never has charges on their trinkets, if a support doesn't has a sightstone, it means he won't have the red trinket so he won't be clearing wards, loosing money and to top it all of, the enemy will have their map lit like a christmas tree while you will be in the utter darkness of the fog of war

A support without sightstone hinders a team so bad that in extreme cases as an ADC I even rather buying it myself and if anyone says anything about my damage output I'll blame the idiotic support who chose not to build it

k wìx1 votes

First and foremost, I'm a gold/plat/diamond support main. Been playing league for a very long time.

1.) A lot of your solutions stifle creativity in the support role. There are so many interesting decisions to make in the support meta right now. If your trying to force Sightstone, this is NOT the way to do it. You want to emulate how the Jungler is 'forced' to take Smite and buy Jungle items because they are the most efficient for Jungling.

2.) When to buy a Sightstone is a really huge choice in the current support meta. It really depends on who your playing and what you want to do. Forcing a player to make his '3rd' or '2nd' or '5th' purchase a specific item will never happen. I'd suggest dropping this train of thought.

3.) I'd love to see a Summoner Spell added to replace the old 'CV' spell - Something that gives support an option over Exhaust/Ignite. It'd need to be powerful to compete with exhuast, but... maybe something like allowing you to place a ward ANYWHERE on the map with a 'medium-ish' cooldown?

4.) If players are negating vision items in favor of odd buys, then its because sightstone does not compete - but to be frank - this really doesn't happen - especially not in gold and up games. Almost every player purchases a sightstone as a support. Your supposed problem really doesn't exist.

5.) You trying to influence another players buying decision is unfair and not practical. League is about player choice and freedom. I may think your Tristana build is absolutely awful, and I may TELL you it is, but its still your decision to build that way, and to make those mistakes, and to LEARN from them.

JavelinJoe2 votes

Then maybe from plat and higher it does not apply. I agree that this is mainly a low elo / unranked issue and higher elos do not have this issue.

That being said... any idea about how to make your first point a reality? It was my overall intention to make it like that, but I could not think of a way how.

k wìx1 votes

Support-specific items already exist. You basically make these items work with vision and remove sightstone from the game. Here, i'll show you how you could do it:

Okay so first off, let's remove sightstone from the game. doesn't exist. Red Vision wards still exist, but NO sightstone. Still with me? okay.

item 3301 item 3303 item 3302 So these 3 items - lets pretend they each allow you to place one ward, just like a Sightstone would, but with 1 charge. This is an additional benefit to what the items already provide And for the record, this would be a minor buff to supports early warding capabilities. Not much, but a bit! Okay, still with me?

item 3096 item 3098 item 3097 The following path allows a 2nd ward, so now you have 2 charges. Again, kinda like you get a Sightstone automatically. This upgrade should now cost an additional 200 gold for these items. (Going back with 700, vs 500 gold for the upgrade)

item 3092 vs item 2301 Now each 3rd path should represent a choice, power vs vision. One path should keep the wards @ 2, or maybe upgrade it 3. This is kinda deep for balancing. But the vision choice here, should get an additional ward compared to the other one. Some additional balance decisions: These would probably need to cost a bit more, but since supports don't need to purchase a sightstone, it should even out.

Now, Just like Junglers, warding is kinda automated for Supports. If you thought that Mids/Junglers/ADCs/Tops should be able to purchase sightstone, I completely agree, and what you do is take one of the worst items for them, and change the item to have a vision component, or introduce items for them that let them have a choice between power and vision. If my ADC had a badass scouting item that gave him AD stats, like damage and attack speed, yet let him ward, that would be epic

EDIT:

As an example, here are some items that just.. don't really get purchased that could totally work for a 'Vision' reboot: item 3056 item 3091 item 3050 item 3512

JavelinJoe1 votes

How would you have multiple actives on the same item? With tier 3 support items (non sightstone ones) they all have actives already. Adding vision actives would mean that you would need to either use both at once, or have a way to differentiate between them.

k wìx1 votes

This is a much harder problem to solve. The short answer is that you really cant do it. You either have to rework the items to not have actives or create a system in which a single item can have 2 actives. Neither of these options are very feasible and both have massive drawbacks that make it not worth it, in my opinion.

One potential alternative i see.. is have the wards you get from items be baked into your trinket usage in some way. So if i purchase a item 3301 my trinket gets an extra ward charge, and the wards I place last an additional 30 seconds or something to that effect. You could do all sorts of crazy things design/balance wise with this idea. The downside is that you'd have to redesign all the trinkets to possibly make them all drop wards. Sweeper would have to be redesigned, ect. ect.

Another way to approach the problem entirely is to just offer more upgrade paths for trinkets. Imagine if your trinket could just..become your sightstone. Would offer up an extra slot for support (lategame power goes up, if you can find the gold as a support!) and still allow everyone to play the vision game.

We're getting off topic though, I do agree that supports should bear the burden of the vision game, **but what we need more than anything is a vision overhaul. **

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