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I like the idea of thornmail changes but I don't like the idea of grevious wounds

HateDaddy··35 votes·1,847 views

Because grevious wounds shuts down lifesteal on more than just ranged ADCs. And armor stacking is already a really efficient way to reduce lifesteal tanking because lifesteal applies after damage reduction (or whatever order it applies in to significantly weaken LS but I believe it's after damage reduced). I think this keeps the same bland problem thornmail has now that makes it really underwhelming. Sure you get 100 armor but you get no HP and in the long run, there are far better options for tanking than 100 armor/no HP. And the passive now or a grevious wounds passive would feel pretty underwhelming for such a stat.

Many champions kinda have LS as an identity to their kits that aren't ADCs and an item like this would be really punishing to them, I'd say unfairly so.

I would like to see the item gain more interesting gameplay while having moments of vulnerability and moments of clear strength. As an example, I'd say after being auto attacked or taking any physical damage in a certain duration, the item begins to store that energy and reflect it back in damage after a certain threshold on-hit to anyone who auto attacks the thornmail holder (think of the mirror shield in Zelda OOT when fighting the witches).

There would be a clear glow or shine to the champion when the reflection is ready to pop and start returning a lot of damage and then this goes on cooldown for 60-70 seconds (almost like an AD hexdrinker/maw). This means if you want to continue focusing the tank, it comes with penalties but it also means focusing the tank isn't instant damage taken, which made it a frustrating item to deal with during cinderhulk meta. And if you elect not to focus the tank, the tank gets longer duration of life and longer zone control but in every situation, the item rewards proper gameplay rather than just being a punishment for focusing the champion with it or a punishment to the champion wasting 2300 gold on it when it's weak.

Just my two cents, and even then I'd rather not spend my last two pennies on the current thornmail. There's this grocery store by me that has a mechanical pony and rides only cost a penny, I'd rather take two rides on that and bust jewels.

56 Comments

The Yetii Rider11 votes

"Many champions have LS as an identity in their kits"

Aatrox Olaf Nasus Warwick LeeSin

That is the entirety of champions in the League who have Lifesteal on their kits. Of those champions, for Aatrox, Warwick and Olaf I could consider it to be their identity. With Lee Sin it's tacked on and with Nasus it's an important tool that keeps him in the laning phase but is also tacked on.

And 5 is not "many' when you consider how many non-ranged ADCs are in the game. Not even close.

TTK Dreadnought4 votes

Illaoi

FantasySniper10 votes

Chogath DrMundo Gragas Maokai Sona Taric Volibear Illaoi

These are all champions that have to use autoattacks and heals, but don't heal through lifesteal.

It's a big favor to ask them to not autoattack Thornmail users and miss out on a good portion of their damage output.

(You also missed some champions with lifesteal or heal-on-hit central to their identity; Irelia Trundle Akali Mordekaiser

The Yetii Rider4 votes

And? We have Executuonet's Calling. That gives Grievous Wounds on no cooldown just from physical damage dealt for only 800 gold.

Why should carries be the ones who have to decide to help the team against sustain champs?

HateDaddy3 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E9ivEHab,comment-id=000100010000,timestamp=2016-09-07T23:42:34.763+0000)

And? We have Executuonet's Calling. That gives Grievous Wounds on no cooldown just from physical damage dealt for only 800 gold.

Why should carries be the ones who have to decide to help the team against sustain champs?

Because spending 800 gold to sacrifice damage (because you get shit for damage when you by EC) as opposed to congenitally building high armor values is a big deal, especially early game. And there's a difference between focusing something with all of you're damage and taking it. I think being punished for being forced to focus a champion for a long duration of time (a tank) is bad gameplay, focusing fhe tank in itself is punishing enough.

The Yetii Rider4 votes

{quoted}

Because spending 800 gold to sacrifice damage (because you get shit for damage when you by EC) as opposed to congenitally building high armor values is a big deal, especially early game. And there's a difference between focusing something with all of you're damage and taking it. I think being punished for being forced to focus a champion for a long duration of time (a tank) is bad gameplay, focusing fhe tank in itself is punishing enough.

And I think utility should be available to every role. I don't think it's fair that the ability of the team to shut down an enemy healer rests on the presence of an AP mage who uses mana (Akali Corki Ezreal Fizz Galio Katarina Kennen Talon Vladimir Yasuo Zed are examples of mid laners who do not build Morellonomicon) or the carry who is so focused on either flat armor penetration, crit/AS synergy, or builds item 3036 instead.

If Grievous Wounds is important enough to be fully available as a solution all the time then it should be available to every role. I should not lose the game because Mundo or Soraka are balanced around being effective even when getting hit by Grievous Wounds and my carry just refuses to buy it.

HateDaddy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E9ivEHab,comment-id=00010001000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-08T00:48:56.247+0000)

And I think utility should be available to every role. I don't think it's fair that the ability of the team to shut down an enemy healer rests on the presence of an AP mage who uses mana (Akali Corki Ezreal Fizz Galio Katarina Kennen Talon Vladimir Yasuo Zed are examples of mid laners who do not build Morellonomicon) or the carry who is so focused on either flat armor penetration, crit/AS synergy, or builds item 3036 instead.

If Grievous Wounds is important enough to be fully available as a solution all the time then it should be available to every role. I should not lose the game because Mundo or Soraka are balanced around being effective even when getting hit by Grievous Wounds and my carry just refuses to buy it.

I get your point and I don't even necessarily disagree with you but this is why I'm against more grevious wounds items. Like it or not, many champions in this game having healing as an identity. As you noted, Soraka and DrMundo are the two most iconic for this but they're also the chronic cases of abuse as to why some form of grevious wounds should exist in itemization. However, making it available to every class and every sub class also makes healing relatively worthless if it becomes so readily available that it would make anyone who depends on some healing even weaker in that regard. And I think having just two GW items alone push us to that brink. That's my concern and it's why I'm in no hurry to see another GW item.

The Yetii Rider2 votes

The midway point isn't a healthy one for the reasons I mentioned.

Either every class has easy access to Grievous Wounds, and the sustain based champs who aren't broken just deal with the consequences, or no champs have access to it and Mundo/Soraka/Trundle get brought back into line around that.

The problem is, as long as Ignite exists, number 2 isn't very likely. So that means we just have to bite the bullet and give tanks, assassins, supports and fighters their own Grievous Wounds items.

It would be cool to see the Immolation effect apply Grievous Wounds, since it shares some flavor with Ignite. Then the counterplay becomes "Get away from the enemy" instead of "don't attack the enemy". That's fairer. And you could put it on Sunfire (fighter item) and Cinderhulk (tank item) which solves both problems at once.

For assassins, the Nightfall on Duskblade could easily reduce healing. AP assassins all build Lich Bane so making that one apply Grievous Wounds as well is a good plan and requires you to get closer than say Luden's Echo.

For supports, a brand new item with an active that burns and applies Grievous Wounds, while having stats that are useful to all three support classes, would be good.

Requiemsfire1 votes

Because you can't make grevous wounds too strong without dumpstering other champions who rely on healing in their kits in order to balance Soraka.

Sorry Soraka mains, you'll never convince me Soraka is balanced especially since she is a champion who literally revolves around healing when other forms of healing exist to a much more moderate extent. Just my opinion.

Votable Jester1 votes

Fizz and Katarina already have GW built into their kit, and Ezreal Talon Yasuo and Zed can all effectively buy EC.

CeexSett1 votes

Fizz doesn't have it anymore iirc.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

Fizz's Grievous Wounds was removed last year. Katarina and Varus are the only two champions in the League who can inflict GW without items or Ignite.

rtbf761092711 votes

grevious wounds are already very common, it's not like thornmail would require some "big favors" from other champions at all. There would be only a handful of champions which would get thornmail even with this change.

Plus several of the champions you listed are prime targets for wounds anyways. So they are likely already going to have it from other sources. As a mid player I'm going to ignite or apply morellonomicon to someone like illaoi for sure

Jabberwöcky3 votes

Nocturne passive?

FantasySniper1 votes

Well, I think we can all agree to exclude infrequent healing from the likes of Kayle Gangplank Tryndamere etc in this argument.

Jabberwöcky1 votes

But those are not lifesteal.

FantasySniper1 votes

Yeah, but neither is Noc's.

Abyssphere1 votes

Elise Irelia

ManiacalCoyote1 votes

As a Nasus main, I like it when teamfights take place in the lanes, near the wandering health pots, I mean Winions.

DevlinCrow1 votes

Xin?

The Yetii Rider2 votes

{quoted}

Xin?

Health restore on-hit is not the same as lifesteal, which is why I didn't include Irelia or Xin. But since they cannot sustain themselves unless they auto attack I suppose it's the same for every character.

I just don't think the sustain power of these champions should be put above a tank's ability to neuter a marks man's lifesteal.

DevlinCrow1 votes

Fair enough

ItsOrval1 votes

You missed a lot of champs...

Spaceman5pff6 votes

MAKE IT A item 3082 ITEM.

Ok yeah I guess the attack speed slow will reduce the thornmail DPS but it will also prevent them from proccing lifesteal as often, thus reducing healing.

Sire Hippington3 votes

I think the entire concept of grevious wounds still is pretty poor in league, as the few options we have involve little decisionmakeing and punish sustain mostly in teamfights/lategame while sustain is most frustraiting to face in lane. Morello's is a core item on most mages regardless of the heal reduce, it's just an automatic boon that screws sustain based opponens should they drop below 40%. Executioners needs some comitment, you actuall loose out on some potential power for building it, but once aquired, it just is ermanently on, no further decision makeing, no way for the heal based champs to play around it, it's just where and your heal is heavily reduced whwnever he fights against you, And the duration on those effects also is really high, there is not much decision like falling back till the effect wears off and then use your sustain tool because the fight would prettymuch be over till it falls off.

If we keep GW in it's current implimentation, we could as well give it to thornmail. I'd prever looking at GW as a whole instead...

Linna Excel2 votes

One of the thematic problems I have with thornmail is why is it able to return damage to someone outside of melee range. It seems odd that 1 inch spikes get caitlyn or kogmog range.

That aside, I think this is a good discussion. Who exactly is thornmail supposed to stop? It seems like it is an anti-AA themed item and not necessarily an anti-ADC item. Only tanks get it and then it is situational. It has only one real stat so it's kind of useless unless you need a bunch of armor and don't want item 3110.

Maybe the item is fine as a niche item.

If I were to change it and grievous wounds are off the table, maybe make it melee only and in addition to the current passive (probably), you get +10% of your bonus armor as on hit physical damage. Give it the theme of the spikes have an offensive use.

Dominick Destine1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E9ivEHab,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2016-09-08T04:19:24.466+0000)

why is it able to return damage to someone outside of melee range.

You're asking why a magical item produces magical damage to people that attack the person wearing it?

Linna Excel1 votes

Most magic has a range or else all skills in this game would be global. If this were a game where range wasn't a primary factor, I wouldn't mind, but it is.

Critmaster Garen2 votes

then make the flat portion of the damage return scale with freaking total health, instead of armor so it doesnt have to be balanced around 600 armor malphite to be decent, when most bruisers and tanks can stack up 250 to 300.

when you balance the maximum effectiveness of the item around malphite with 500 bonus armor, then of course its going to be shit on a tank with 150 to 200 bonus armor.

which is in my opinion the only reason thornmail hasnt been buffed despite being trash since its changes/nerfs.

health values between bruisers and tanks vary much less extreme than bonus armor. meaning the thing can actually be made worth a damn on most bruisers and tanks without breaking on one or two specific champions.

even extreme cases like sion and chogath will maybe have 4k health with a thornmail while other fighters or tanks would get around 3.5k health. see the diffence in % compared to whats possible with armor?

if you balance thornmail around 4k health chogath to be as strong as on 600 armor malphite right now, then its still going to be good on another 3.5k health tank or fighter.

plus, what you DONT want to do if you buy a giant armor item like thornmail is buy more armor anyways. you usually want to stack health from there on to synergize with those 100 armor.

Serevas1 votes

The reason thornmail is underwhelming as a tank item is it's not intended as a singular tank item, it's a niche late item pick up against teams with a lot of auto attackers. That's entirely why the armor based scaling was added to the passive in the first place. Previously you could just pick it up and reflect 30% of auto attack damage taken and not care.

HateDaddy2 votes

{quoted}

The reason thornmail is underwhelming as a tank item is it's not intended as a singular tank item, it's a niche late item pick up against teams with a lot of auto attackers. That's entirely why the armor based scaling was added to the passive in the first place. Previously you could just pick it up and reflect 30% of auto attack damage taken and not care.

I understand its intention but niche items like that always end up being trash. They have to be so hilariously under tuned otherwise they'd be broken as shit. This alone is a pretty bad design principle when you have to intentionally cripple an item to prevent it from being abused.

Serevas1 votes

That's a fair point.

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

I understand its intention but niche items like that always end up being trash. They have to be so hilariously under tuned otherwise they'd be broken as shit. This alone is a pretty bad design principle when you have to intentionally cripple an item to prevent it from being abused.

Put slightly differently, if you have to cripple an item to prevent it from being absurd then there's a good chance that there's something wrong with the underlying concept.

Atma's had the same problem.

YumaS2Astral2 votes

{quoted}

I understand its intention but niche items like that always end up being trash. They have to be so hilariously under tuned otherwise they'd be broken as shit. This alone is a pretty bad design principle when you have to intentionally cripple an item to prevent it from being abused.

I don't understand that, Thornmail wasn't broken before to begin with, it was still a niche item that could be picked against ADCs, but was mediocre against AD casters and useless against APs. Like now, but the difference is that before, it actually did damage against them.

The only reason I can think of why Riot changed this item is to discourage this item's usage as a single armor item. Previously, you could buy Thornmail as your only armor item, then build only HP and magic resistance, which was somewhat effective against almost full AP teams, but wasn't all that effective because other armor items can offer higher effective HP against physical damage (example, Randuin's Omen).

Another reason is to make this item more effective against on-hit champions, but honestly this item is still not effective against them. Most of them deal on-hit magic or true damage (Kayle, Kog, Yi, etc). To get the most of this item, you need to stack absurd amounts of armor, which is inneficient against those on-hit dealers to begin with, for that exact reason. Unless Riot made this item scale with HP or magic resistance as well (neither which would make sense)

Rebonack1 votes

The main problem with Thronmail is that it isn't actually a tank item. It's a soak item like Warmog's. And it isn't a particularly good soak item, either.

Tank items make the user more of a threat to the enemy team. They can do this with damage (Sunfire) with nerf-auras (Frozen Heart) or with crowd control (Mallet, Omen, ect). By making the wearer more of a threat, a well made tank item encourages the enemy team to focus them to get rid of the disruptive presence. But Thornmail doesn't make the wearer more of a threat. In fact, it actively discourages the enemy team from focusing the user.

A passive like Thornmail's would, in fact, make quite a bit more sense on an IAS/Armor bruiser item than it does on a pure armor item. Something like item 1029 item 1031 item 1043. Some OnHit magic damage coupled with some %damage return. As an added bonus, it would have innate synergy with Wit's magic resist shredding.

If you wanted a damage return effect that's fitting for an ACTUAL tank item, you would and something like: Unique Active Retribution: Target an enemy champion to leash them. So long as the enemy champion remains within range and/or you remain alive (percentage) of the damage the target enemy champion deals to champions is returned to them as magic damage.

THAT would encourage then enemy team to focus the Tank.

HateDaddy2 votes

{quoted}

The main problem with Thronmail is that it isn't actually a tank item. It's a soak item like Warmog's. And it isn't a particularly good soak item, either.

Tank items make the user more of a threat to the enemy team. They can do this with damage (Sunfire) with nerf-auras (Frozen Heart) or with crowd control (Mallet, Omen, ect). By making the wearer more of a threat, a well made tank item encourages the enemy team to focus them to get rid of the disruptive presence. But Thornmail doesn't make the wearer more of a threat. In fact, it actively discourages the enemy team from focusing the user.

A passive like Thornmail's would, in fact, make quite a bit more sense on an IAS/Armor bruiser item than it does on a pure armor item. Something like item 1029 item 1031 item 1043. Some OnHit magic damage coupled with some %damage return. As an added bonus, it would have innate synergy with Wit's magic resist shredding.

If you wanted a damage return effect that's fitting for an ACTUAL tank item, you would and something like: Unique Active Retribution: Target an enemy champion to leash them. So long as the enemy champion remains within range and/or you remain alive (percentage) of the damage the target enemy champion deals to champions is returned to them as magic damage.

THAT would encourage then enemy team to focus the Tank.

When tanks zone control properly, you really don't have a choice but to focus them.

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

When tanks zone control properly, you really don't have a choice but to focus them.

More or less, yeah.

But we're talking about itemization here, not kits, yes?

HateDaddy2 votes

{quoted}

More or less, yeah.

But we're talking about itemization here, not kits, yes?

Yeah but you can't talk about one without considering the other

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

Yeah but you can't talk about one without considering the other

Sure you can. We're doing it right now.

My premise here is pretty simple: A tank item that encourages the enemy team to focus the tank is a well made tank item. A tank item that discourages the enemy team to focus the tank is a bad tank item. It is, in fact, doing the opposite of what a tank item is intended for. Such an item is more at home on champions who want to discourage focus.

And before Riot gutted Thronmail, that's more or less what it was used for. A single armor item picked up to round out defense on champs who need a balance of offense and defense. Thornmail, in its present form, is fundamentally flawed. There's a reason why it's a terrible niche item.

HateDaddy1 votes

{quoted}

Sure you can. We're doing it right now.

My premise here is pretty simple: A tank item that encourages the enemy team to focus the tank is a well made tank item. A tank item that discourages the enemy team to focus the tank is a bad tank item. It is, in fact, doing the opposite of what a tank item is intended for. Such an item is more at home on champions who want to discourage focus.

And before Riot gutted Thronmail, that's more or less what it was used for. A single armor item picked up to round out defense on champs who need a balance of offense and defense. Thornmail, in its present form, is fundamentally flawed. There's a reason why it's a terrible niche item.

Okay if we are going to take that route, I'd argue a tank item being good or bad isn't defined by whether or not it leaves you wanting to focus a tank. In general you don't want to focus a tank. And items like item 3110 have auras that slow your AS, meaning you'll likely be in its aura of yore forced to focus them. You likely don't want to focus that. Same with item 3143, you don't want to be forced to focus that either.

Either way, you generally don't want to focus a tank but you have to. An item won't dictate that, if you could avoid it entirely regardless of what they built, it would.

But for arguments sake, let's say you're right, I don't think my proposal is super terrible in that regard. Because there are moments where focusing a tank won't punish you too much and there are moments where it will, but it only matters if the tank plays it correctly.

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

Okay if we are going to take that route, I'd argue a tank item being good or bad isn't defined by whether or not it leaves you wanting to focus a tank. In general you don't want to focus a tank. And items like item 3110 have auras that slow your AS, meaning you'll likely be in its aura of yore forced to focus them. You likely don't want to focus that. Same with , you don't want to be forced to focus that either.

Frozen Heart is, in my eyes at least, a pretty ideal tank item. The mana and CDR helps the Tank make better use of their abilities to make themselves a threat. Further, the attack speed nerf aura helps them protect their nearby allies simply by existing. Both of those factors increase the threat of the Frozen Heart user.

Less so with Omen, but that slow is nothing to sneeze at. Omen is more of a soak/initiation item like Dead Man's, at least in my opinion.

But what about Thornmail? How does it increase the user's threat? Well, unless you scale off armor or have some way to force your foe to auto-attack you it really doesn't? I mean, of course someone is going to attack that Shen sitting on their face. But one way or the other, Thornmail exists to help people win duels, not be a better Tank. And if we want Thorn to be a better armor item for tanky folks looking to improve their ability to duel auto-attack focused champions it seems to me that there are better ways to do it.

Either way, you generally don't want to focus a tank but you have to. An item won't dictate that, if you could avoid it entirely regardless of what they built, it would.

But for arguments sake, let's say you're right, I don't think my proposal is super terrible in that regard. Because there are moments where focusing a tank won't punish you too much and there are moments where it will, but it only matters if the tank plays it correctly.

I don't think your idea is bad. It's like a more sustained damage-y version of Odin's Veil. It would be a much more interesting and much more interactive item than what we've got right now. I guess my underlying thought is that Thorn should increase the user's threat even when they aren't being attacked.

Requiemsfire1 votes

Part of the issue is that many consider grievous wounds the only real counter play to Soraka without directly focusing her or 100-0ing the enemy in less than a second while weaker or less reliable forms exist that would be impacted by changes to grievous wounds causing an imbalance product in the game without absolutely dumpstering her as a champion or making other forms of healing pointless.

hhaavviikk1 votes

only reason thornmail can't be strong on tanks because if it would be strong on tanks it would be broken on rammus.

SoulTapped1 votes

Im not really interested in the concept of landing an auto to apply grevious wounds on yourself as any champion. That kind of sounds counter intuitive to the flow of the game. I am certainly interested in exploring other avenues of buffing the thornmail but i don't believe this is the best route we can take.

Speedphoenix1 votes

make a rioter look at this plaese

Mandang01 votes

I'll state the unpopular opinion again:

Thornmail is a poor design type because it punishes a class of champs for playing correctly. No, armor doesn't punish champs who do physical damage, it is a healthy counterstat that allows you to mitigate their damage. Armor penetration isn't punishing tanks for the same reason. It's easy to hate on ADCs, but imagine if items punished other classes for doing their jobs - thornmail for spells, maybe a bloodseeker-like effect that causes damage to champs who use mobility spells, an item that causes heals and shields to also damage the champ who casts them?

Even if you disagree with me about damage return, this is all still missing the obvious point that lifesteal should be nerfed instead of creating some terrible woman-who-swallowed-a-fly chain of itemization. Why should ADC lifesteal be balanced around forcing tanks to build thornmail? Why should all other sustain champs get screwed by the grievous wounds you'd put on that thornmail? Do you really think a Nami or Sona needs even more things that crap on their heals?

hhaavviikk1 votes

same problem exists with armor, because armor is so strong you are forced to buy armor penetration lest you want to get owned by any tank who gets close to you.

SlashStriker1 votes

omg Grievous Wounds on item 3075 Thornmail will reduce the lifesteal and now we have to build MR items item 3139 item 3156 that also gives lifesteal... what a bummer -_-

Blkninjar871 votes

Lifesteal isn't the problem... ADCS are out of control cause they have an item for every given situation. The only ADC lifesteal is actually crazy on is KogMaw.

Thornmails Problem isn't that it gives no HP it's that it require more armor on top of it's armor to do what it wasn't to do effectively AND is countered by MR which MR is only offensive items. It's basically an oxymoron of an item. If Thornmail simply switched to true damage that's make it atleast desirable on someone other than Rammus. The other problem with building thornmail is u have to hope the people who it counters is stupid enough to target u aswell... no problem for Shen Rammus Galio ... but enemy XinZhao decides to say screw Sion and flash/ghost past him while he charging that Q to dive ur Vayne ... Ur pretty much just screwed.

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