Not every game do people play is a rank/draft. Not every game can you counter in the champion select with the champion you're playing or the summoners you use. By saying "just pick x to counter y" is a stupid excuse because it's an unreliable way to "counter" someone. Countering should come from gameplay, itemization, and skill. Not just a champion.
BluePolarizer7 votesthe game is not balanced for all modes and it can't be. The mode it should be balanced for, at the exclusion of all others, is challenger level 5v5s. Not solo queue, not blind, not ARAM. Just as basketball is balanced with the rules made for the NBA and not a street game.
The Ecdysiast10 votesNo, it should be balanced according to the biggest group of players, not the smallest. If they game's not as fun for the majority, they get less money. And in case you've never played a sport in your entire life, there are rule differences between professional, organized, and minor play. Basketball doesn't "balance" players. You're not going to see them trading Kobe over to the Timberwolves because he "lacks counterplay."
Narasimha8 votesOh dear gods NO. By this logic, the game would be balanced for the Bronze and Silver level. And I don't think anyone wants that.
You balance the game where its easiest to adjust. In this case, it IS the pros. They're able to consistently and often accurately portray a champion's strengths and weaknesses.
Marinaras Trench2 votesAs a silver player, that would mean stuff like Master Yi would get nerfed
Junsui Aoi1 votesProbably heimer too
BluePolarizer2 votesok, that means Master Yi should be nerfed and Kalista, Gnar and LeBlanc should be buffed, since they're all weak in bronze and silver (where the majority are).
Gunpoint1 votesNo, it should be balanced according to the biggest group of players, not the smallest. If they game's not as fun for the majority, they get less money. And in case you've never played a sport in your entire life, there are rule differences between professional, organized, and minor play. Basketball doesn't "balance" players. You're not going to see them trading Kobe over to the Timberwolves because he "lacks counterplay."
Yeah except this is a game, not real life. Real life there are things out of your control and you just have to deal with it, and it sucks. In game if you had too many things out of your control, it still sucks, and then nobody would play it.
LaceUp232 votesRules made for the NBA and not a street game? What the actual fuk are you even talking about lol?
Saianna6 votesCountering should be mostly by skill Imo. And as second, trough itemization.
Problem is it's impossible to balance champions to match skills of a players (hello MM, i'm talking about you, you piece of manmade garbage) or all items..
Akali MIA Care4 votes"By saying "just pick x to counter y" is a stupid excuse because it's an unreliable way to "counter" someone."
That's what a counter-pick is, and it's done in pretty much every game that you have a ban/pick phase.
BTW, Picking teemo against singed is ALWAYS a reliable way to counter him.
Sona Ping5 votesWhat he is saying is more about when people say "X Champion isn't OP, you just have to pick Champion Y". Said reasoning is a very stupid excuse because that reason is a definition for something being over-powered.
The Lexer6 votesYeah but you you still have to be able to play that champion well and know how he/she counters your opponent. If my 3rd best mid lane champion counters the enemy I'll pick it up, but if my 9th best mid laner counters I'll just decide out of my best champions which one is best
Akali MIA Care1 votesThat's just incentive to learn a wide range of champions.
But a lot of people have this sense that they should be able to pick whoever they want whenever they want and it'll be okay and a good choice because they're comfortable on that champion. So they'll pick a champ they're okay on into a counter lane and then get bullied and cry about how overpowered another champ is, but what they miss is that they just don't have enough knowledge about the game and matchups to know that sometimes you have to pick against your normal picks to get something that gives your team a better chance at winning.
LaceUp233 votesSome champs have kits that counter others. If you are saying that counterplay should come from itemization and gameplay instead of champions, you are asking every champ to be the same. And that isn't fun.
Sona Ping1 votesThat's a very silly thing to say. You've not played even a decent fighting game?
LaceUp233 votesThis isn't mortal combat. I'm talking about League of Legends.
Sona Ping2 votesMortal Kombat.
And the point is "Plenty of other games, in multiple genres, manage to have fun and different characters with a variety of play-styles without having issues with balance or countering." Why would that somehow be impossible for League.
LaceUp231 votesYes, let's play paper-scissor-rock without having counters. Sounds fun to me.
3TWarrior1 voteslol, science channel reference, there's a robot that is literally impossible to beat at rock paper scissors because it can calculate what hand sign to make in 20 nano-seconds based upon the movements of the opposing hand XD
LaceUp231 votesPsh, I would start shooting a scissor, wait 20 nano-seconds, and then switch my throw to paper. Literally wouldn't be hard to do at all. You would just need to start the paper throw with two fingers. You can do it faster than the eye can see, but not faster than a 20 nano-second robot can detect. He would throw rock and be defeated.
Humans > Robots.
3TWarrior1 votesunfortunately the robot can change its hand sign in roughly 50 milliseconds, that's faster than you can type a single letter or click a mouse, even blink
3TWarrior1 votesmortal combat also has a competent set of developers and a much larger, much more affordable player base on a variety of game systems
some games have the same problems though even with more developers and a large fanbase
nintendo's Super Smash Bros Brawl, for instance, MetaKnight was typically banned from competitive play because on a working controller, mains could assassin combo a character endlessly without the ability to counter
Sona Ping1 votes[M]ortal [K]ombat also has a competent set of developers and a much larger, much more affordable [(Affordable? What?)] player base on a variety of game systems[.]
Well, wouldn't that just prove my point either ? That it is possible to have a game with different kinds of characters that is balanced?
some games have the same problems though even with more developers and a large fanbase
nintendo's Super Smash Bros Brawl, for instance,
I was talking about Fighting Games, as in the genre.
zFlash962 votesLOL. Fighting games have tons of counters too. Most games have some totally unbalanced match ups with 70%+ winrate on one side. Try to play a slow-ass grabber against a super-mobile zoner. That surely ain't fun.
Sona Ping1 votesI don't which ones you are playing, doubt they are of the "decent" set I mentioned. It's really not hard to find games with just 5.0s or 4.5s and things of that sort.
Nameless Voice3 votesIf the only way to beat a champion is to couter-pick them, that's an indication of bad design.
[{quoted}](name=Nameless Voice,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3vjheXWz,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-06-07T12:14:43.348+0000)
Hard-counter An extremely effective Counterpick. The existence of a hard-counter is generally a sign of bad champion design in the case of either the champion countering, or the one being countered, because it contradicts Riot's core design value of Counterplay. The harder the counter, the worse the design problem.
DeynaTaggerung3 votesIndeed, and most "counters" don't give you a huge advantage, enough to overcome the experience gap. The only time I've ever seen this work was when I picked swain into zed. I had 4 games on swain one year ago, but my primary mid laners all had a hard time against him so I just said "heck why not". I went even and came out ahead post-6. It was so stupidly in my favor that it didn't matter I had no idea what I was doing. Generally though, counters aren't that effective and it's better to play what you know best.
Solaxo3 votesOR maybe I just want to play my favorite champion. I don't like being forced into playing a champion just to counter another one
Dengeden2 votesWhich it does. Team comps and the 3 factors you mentioned heavily influence how the game goes. The only thing you shouldn't do is deliberately pick an unfavorable match up (and it's very debatable what constitutes as one).
Solari Fortune2 votesI find Counters kinda dumb, even going against champs that are suppose to "hard counter" you. You can still destroy them. My example was me as Quinn vs. Old Trist (Ya this was a long time ago but still holds the point), on paper it says trist is a "Hard Counter to Quinn" yet in the game I was able to kill her multiple times and came out ahead in the game.
Risurin2 votesNot every game do people play is a rank/draft. Not every game can you counter in the champion select with the champion you're playing or the summoners you use. By saying "just pick x to counter y" is a stupid excuse because it's an unreliable way to "counter" someone. Countering should come from gameplay, itemization, and skill. Not just a champion.
yes, not every game mode have a draft phase, but the game shouldnt be balanced around the other game modes.
JustMyBassCannon2 votesNot every game do people play is a rank/draft. Not every game can you counter in the champion select with the champion you're playing or the summoners you use. By saying "just pick x to counter y" is a stupid excuse because it's an unreliable way to "counter" someone. Countering should come from gameplay, itemization, and skill. Not just a champion.
So saying "Just CC them," "Just build X," and "Just do X" are all just as valid statements.
Look, I absolutely despise when someone doesn't really explain counter-play when someone else is asking for a counter, but you can't just denounce an entire portion of counter-play because you can't always use the same thing in every situation.
"CC works on everyone/I can't CC when I'm champ Y," "I can't build X when I'm champ Y," and "I have to do all that just to beat them?" These are all common responses to being given counter-play, regardless of the type. You can't just reject counter-play, and neither should others expect you to know what to do when you can't use one type of counter-play.
Champion picks are legitimate counter-play; even in blind pick, you can swap lanes to make champion picks more favorable. On the other end of the table, people shouldn't just give one form of counter-play and expect your thanks.
OperationDEEZ12 votesAnd this is why I hate DoTA.
Lugg1 votesThis guy gets it.
Biffolo1 votesThe game should be balanced for competitive environments before casual fun ones.
The Ecdysiast1 votesThe game should be balanced either: In the way that makes them the most money, which is from the casual players who like to look cool, whereas some pros don't even use skins. or Differently for modes that don't allow counter-picking.
Biffolo1 votesThe game should be balanced either: In the way that makes them the most money, which is from the casual players who like to look cool, whereas some pros don't even use skins. or Differently for modes that don't allow counter-picking.
Asking them to balance differently for people who just play casually is absurd. If you cared enough then you would play ranked.
The Ecdysiast1 votesThat's not an argument. You're telling me if I completely didn't care at all what role I was stuck with, and what champions I was forced to pick from to even be viable, and which of THOSE champions specifically counter my opponents, then I'd care enough about balance to play ranked?
Biffolo1 votesThat's not an argument. You're telling me if I completely didn't care at all what role I was stuck with, and what champions I was forced to pick from to even be viable, and which of THOSE champions specifically counter my opponents, then I'd care enough about balance to play ranked?
Yea pretty much. You either pick one champ and try to one trick pony it to challenger not caring about what is meta and what isnt and counters and stuff. Or you can take the route that I do, which is constantly analyzing and calculating and picking up and dropping champions on the state of balance. For example, Sona is my favorite champ in the game, but I don't have any soloq games with her (only ranked 5s) this season, because I can just take better picks. If you put your emotional attachments to the side when deciding what to play, I think it can go a long way.
The Ecdysiast2 votesThat only counts for people with no life who rely on LoL to feel accomplished. If I want to play a Video Game for FUN, as INTENDED, that doesn't work. Sorry to break it to you, but League of Legends isn't all there is to life.
Biffolo1 votesThat only counts for people with no life who rely on LoL to feel accomplished. If I want to play a Video Game for FUN, as INTENDED, that doesn't work. Sorry to break it to you, but League of Legends isn't all there is to life.
It's not just that. If you break rules there should be zero tolerance for it. Ranked is NOT the environment for screwing off and having fun. And that's what I'm referring to here.
The Ecdysiast1 votesScrewing off and having fun are not the same thing. This game is not a job. Even Ranked needs to be fun to play. It shouldn't be boring to play in a way that's effective.
Biffolo1 votesScrewing off and having fun are not the same thing. This game is not a job. Even Ranked needs to be fun to play. It shouldn't be boring to play in a way that's effective.
If you play ranked, your goal should be to become the best in the world. That's the end of it. Ranked is for tryharding, you cut emotion out of your play to the best of your ability and make calculated decisions to win.
The Ecdysiast1 votesGet a life, man.
The Ecdysiast1 votesWhen that goal is in a video game and not anything productive, instead of playing the video game for fun... YES.
Biffolo1 votesWhen that goal is in a video game and not anything productive, instead of playing the video game for fun... YES.
No, it's that this goal benefits me. I'm not going to go out and help the world just because I can. This is something I enjoy doing, and as such wish to do it more. If I can one day get paid doing it then that's great!
Dingding1231 votesAmen
Phife1 votesDo you understand what it means to be countered? I dont think you do...
Koldheartedjsp1 votesStop playing blind then.
