"Taliyah was too good at pushing her wave, so we reduced her Q damage to minions"

Arcyyy·Oct 25, 2016·141 votes·6,672 views

100 Comments

EedatOct 25, 201681 votes

You're missing the context where her Q could clear all the caster minions at level 1. Viktor and Aurelion can't do that either

ArcyyyOct 25, 20165 votes

{quoted}

Your missing the context where her Q could clear all the caster minions at level 1. Viktor and Aurelion can't do that either

Yes, but she'd have to waste an entire Q on the casters, then use 2 Qs to clear the melees, unless she waited from them to get low. Viktor and Asol could mostly constantly push EVERY minion just by using an ability or standing still.

SalronOct 25, 201664 votes

[{quoted}](name=Friend of the JG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E7Lok3Mu,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2016-10-25T18:18:00.607+0000)

Yes, but she'd have to waste an entire Q on the casters, then use 2 Qs to clear the melees, unless she waited from them to get low. Viktor and Asol could mostly constantly push EVERY minion just by using an ability or standing still.

And they can't do that at level 1 Did you even read his post

LegendmakerGXOct 25, 201610 votes

[{quoted}](name=Friend of the JG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E7Lok3Mu,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2016-10-25T18:18:00.607+0000)

Yes, but she'd have to waste an entire Q on the casters, then use 2 Qs to clear the melees, unless she waited from them to get low. Viktor and Asol could mostly constantly push EVERY minion just by using an ability or standing still.

AurelionSol got nerf big time and for Viktor he can't wave clear anymore until prob max lvl 5 and with 2 full AP item.

Taliyah could had just wave clear at lvl 1 practically.

Chembaron YamadaOct 25, 201614 votes

Besides that: Viktor is not the slightest as mobile as Taliyah or AurelionSol . So he is much more likely to miss cs if he decides to roam.

it be lìke thatOct 25, 20163 votes

its a lengthy cd low level considering its her only means of doing anything. maybe nerfing it at the earliest stages is fine, but overall the nerf was far too hard.

NineTailedMysticOct 25, 20165 votes

Considering they only removed her bonus damage to minions, not base damage.

AirKingNeoOct 25, 20164 votes

I mean Kayle can push waves well early too. However she has to get in range to auto (less safety) and can't roam as well as the latter.

LA LostyOct 26, 20161 votes

I believe Aurelion can do something similar with his W at lvl 1, if he positions himself right he can get all the casters. Its alot harder though and takes more time while Taliyah can simply use a single Q and clear all the ranged minions extremely quickly.

Doctor JarvisOct 25, 201634 votes

Taliyah was too good at pushing her wave, going bot for an all-but-guarenteed double kill, then getting back to mid before the wave even reached her tower.

ArcyyyOct 25, 20168 votes

[{quoted}](name=Doctor Jarvis,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E7Lok3Mu,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-10-25T17:39:05.994+0000)

Taliyah was too good at pushing her wave, going bot for an all-but-guarenteed double kill, then getting back to mid before the wave even reached her tower.

Isn't that what riot specifically said she was designed to do?

Dabrick01Oct 25, 201616 votes

Kind of, but not as well as she was able to. She would have to maybe miss at least one wave. Her extra movement speed and fast ult was too fast. She would not have to sacrifice as much gold and xp as Victor or SOl would.

ArcyyyOct 25, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Kind of, but not as well as she was able to. She would have to maybe miss at least one wave. Her extra movement speed and fast ult was too fast. She would not have to sacrifice as much gold and xp as Victor or SOl would.

And their solution was to gut everything but her Q then gut her Q and leave everything else unreverted

DolasaurOct 25, 20167 votes

"gut everything but her Q" - like letting her W cast -> E cast -> W trigger for full explosion combo damage? That was a pretty huge skirmish buff for her.

inplaneOct 25, 20164 votes

{quoted}

"gut everything but her Q" - like letting her W cast -> E cast -> W trigger for full explosion combo damage? That was a pretty huge skirmish buff for her.

It hurts her more than it helps. The E damage is completely gutted because of the ability to W-E. 15% falloff damage is detrimental to the E damage and it pretty much gives no incentive to even use the ability at all outside of levels 3-8. Before when she had to place down E first, landing E-W was much more rewarding. It actually did damage that made the enemy regret disrespecting her.

About her design that TC mentioned, she isn't made to be an AFK farm roamer. That's TwistedFate 's job. Taliyah has to work for her roams like all the other control mages have to. Meaning she has to outplay her opponent before roaming or else she has the risk of getting preempted and failing. Sure, she has the tools made for roaming, but it doesn't have to be used for roaming. Her ult can be used for it's ridiculous CC and her passive is good for getting back to lane and dodging. Letting her clear 3 mage minions at level 1 with 1 skill is ridiculous. She basically became an easier TwistedFate that pros started to play. She took little practice to be good with because the enemy laner can't even touch you once you spray the wave with 1 Q.

Stars ShaperOct 25, 201629 votes

They nerfed Aurelion Sol too.

Your point?

resumedOct 25, 20167 votes

they also nerfed viktor and, even though shes not in the op, morgana a while ago for the same reason

CerealBoxOfDoomOct 25, 201622 votes

neither of these champions can push like Taliyah was, who the fuck are you kidding?

ArcyyyOct 25, 20163 votes

{quoted}

neither of these champions can push like Taliyah was, who the fuck are you kidding?

Viktor can just press E in the general direction of a wave and explode it. it at LEAST took taliyah 2 qs.

RalanrOct 25, 201630 votes

He needs his upgrade and some good amount of AP to do that.

Taliyah did it at level 1.

DoktorKaiserOct 25, 201614 votes

We are talking about lvl 1-2-3 hard shoving mid. Aurelion has that problem yes, but Viktor cant shove before he gets upgraded E, which costs 1250 gold, which takes ages to get, if you are even lucky to farm it out all at once and not base with like 1000 and either go without items back to lane or collect it all over again :S Thats why they are constantly trying to nerf Aurelion and not Viktor.

HazyCloud7Oct 26, 20168 votes

Also Viktor doesn't have an ability literally designed to allow him to roam to other lanes. Taliyah and Sol do.

Vistha KaiOct 25, 20166 votes

That was item 3071 .

Dabrick01Oct 25, 20165 votes

What.

Are we talking about the same champ here?

Vistha KaiOct 25, 20163 votes

Do I have to explain the joke? Fine.

Cleaver - clever.

It Hertz When IPOct 25, 201615 votes

I read it as "That was Black Cleaver", so...

Vistha KaiOct 25, 20161 votes

Well, it was meant to be a pun like "serious LeeSin ".

TFBaamOct 26, 20164 votes

i got the lee one but maybe cuz lee is at the start of his name but cleaver is the second word and changed how i said it in my mind

Supreme Senpai69Oct 26, 20163 votes

I mean I read it as "Seriously Sin." Took me a second

LadyRenlyOct 25, 20165 votes

all taliyah is good for is her pre 6 and level 6, after that she falls off and becomes garbage. all she was good for was her early cheese and try to snowball with that, now no one plays her

SpecterVonBarenOct 26, 20161 votes

Her kit's a bit of a mess in terms of what kind of champ it's supposed to be attached to.

ChaoticPineconeOct 25, 20164 votes

They nerfed Viktor for this exact reason.

They nerfed the early-game hexcore upgrades, then his E damage, then his E aftershock damage, then the cost of the Hex core upgrades. All so he cant mindlessly waveclear.

KilljoyXOct 25, 20164 votes

Singed <Hides>

arc95Oct 26, 20164 votes

A sol yes Viktor not as much... ya Viktor has crazy wave clear but he isnt an effective roamer so it is actually "balanced" also he has to buy the 1250g item to get the wave clear...also Viktor can either waveclear or skirmish and it has to be in a given area

Tali and A Sol... clear wave.... 3 seconds later appears bot ...double kill

HazyCloud7Oct 25, 20163 votes

GTFO. Viktor needs to sink 1250 gold into an upgrade that provides very little AP when it is purchased, and requires level 7 before he can clear the wave.

Meep ManOct 26, 20163 votes

Stop comparing champions over one aspect and then ignore every other aspect. Champions should be balanced individually based on their performance compared to others, not be balanced based on what everyone else can do. If Taliyah needs a buff, that's fine, but don't drag some other champion into her current grave if she is in one.

D4ltaOneOct 26, 20162 votes

Tell me, what taliyah can do what viktor cant do better? His dmg is better and more reliable. The only aspect is the roaming. But you cant roam if your lane isnt pushed out.

Ap Mid BurstOct 25, 20162 votes

Viktor needs to be heavily gutted. Aurelian sol is ok right now.

HazyCloud7Oct 25, 20166 votes

Yasuo main asking for immobile mage to be gutted. LOL

Toru ItaiOct 26, 20162 votes

does Vic's laser go threw yas's Wind Wall? (I don't play either champ)

Nagoh ShanOct 26, 20161 votes

Not if it originates on one side of the wall and passes through.

You can laser behind the wall though.

His Q enhanced auto goes through the wall, but the q ability itself doesn't

Toru ItaiOct 26, 20161 votes

so it's kind of like a skill matchup?

Nagoh ShanOct 26, 20161 votes

IMO it's a survival matchup.

Viktor before his first upgrade has mana issues, and it's easy to attack his mana pool, delaying his initial 1250g back. If Viktor dies in this time, Yas basically gets full reign.

If Viktor survives to his first back, he gets his upgrade, and then it's a little in his favor, but before that it's Yas' to lose.

HazyCloud7Oct 26, 20161 votes

No.

Supreme Senpai69Oct 26, 20162 votes

Uhh....

They've done nothing but nerf every single aspect of Aurelion Sol's kit. And Viktor can't roam other lanes as good as Taliyah. That's why they nerfed it. Taliyah is a roaming mage, meant to push waves and go to other lanes to pick up kills. She does this very well with all her movement speed near walls and her ult. Viktor doesn't have those things

aCup of TeaOct 26, 20162 votes

I think the change was udnerstandable considering her early wave clear. But the state she was put at after so many nerfs to her overall is just sad. She got the same treatment as Azir, both have ideas defined pretty obviously by Riot and none of these are actually applied to the champions by them.

Hopefully they will work on them during preseason, it's sad that unique mages like that (as much as I sometimes hated laning against good Azir players) get such treatment without any more info about them for so long.

Well for you Taliyah mains, just pray that she won't go Urgot/Yorick way and gets neglected for years - same for you cheeky Azir mains.

TeCoolMageOct 26, 20162 votes

Riot never reverts changes!!! (ignoring kog, clearly doesn't count as it goes against what we circlejerk)

Taliyah is so broken wtf kys

reverts Taliyah buff

OMG RIOT I HATE YOU

-Community

GoronMuncherVOct 26, 20161 votes

It's worse: "Taliyah is having trouble pushing the wave, so we're giving her +50% damage to minions" "Taliyah is pushing too easily, so we're making her deal less damage to minions" ?????????????????

inplaneOct 26, 20162 votes

{quoted}

It's worse: "Taliyah is having trouble pushing the wave, so we're giving her +50% damage to minions" "Taliyah is pushing too easily, so we're making her deal less damage to minions" ?????????????????

Riot and the community at work. I don't see anything wrong here.

Seriously though. I don't know why they even added that 50% bonus damage. Her E was already good at waveclearing paired with her W. Now that her E sucks in almost every aspect and Q is weaker, I don't see how they expect Taliyah to even function as a midlaner anymore. Lets not even talk about how her W is like trying to play a game of duck duck goose with no feet.