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Riot should be ashamed that they are letting adcs dominate for so long.

option paralysis··107 votes·4,939 views

If it's not vayne, it's tristana jumping around and 3 shotting your ass. If it's not tristana, it's twitch jumping out of nowhere and nuking your whole team. If it's not twitch, it's xayah kiting my anus and 3 shotting me, etc... Also, the fact that a hypercarry like twitch can jungle viably should be the most embarrassing thing in the game for the company. Just played against a duo twitch jungle and top lulu with a soraka support and ashe adc. I actually wanted to write the most hateful shit I could think of. But I didn't. I won't let riot's mistakes affect my account negatively. Because lord knows, they would be the first to punish me because I'm "toxic", never mind the fact they are the source of all the toxicity.

I just CANNOT understand this. I lost 3 games in a row because we just couldn't kill twitch or tristana + their slaves soraka and lulu. Having 200+ armor doesn't mean jack shit. I blow up like I'm building full squishy dmg. Alright riot, alright. If I build tabis, I get kited by their slaves, if i build mercs, I just die anyway in 1 second. Nobody like this shit, every streamer I see is tilted out of his mind, lcs had 50+ mins games regularly, I wonder why right. How everyone snowballs in solo q, they play safe, because they know what happens when someone gets a kill and first tower.

I just don't understand. I really don't. I wanna play the game as a jungler and gank lanes which I see fit. I don't want that my first thought every game is "god damn, gotta camp bot."

132 Comments

Penns57 votes

3600 to 3400 btw hehe item 3031

AirKingNeo6 votes

I'd complain more about the two 5 AD buffs. It needed the price reduction, but not the 10 ad increase.

doubleguac1 votes

Why did it need the price reduction?

I don't understand why Riot wants ADCs to be able to comfortably rush IE first or second item. It's a scaling item. It becomes more gold efficient for every other crit/AD item you own. It shouldn't be efficient as a first buy.

Like, what mid builds Rabadons first or second? No one, because the high cost and awkward build path aren't worth it until you already have other sources of AP.

I feel like Riot buffed the hell out of crit items because crit builds were taking too long to "activate," and so everyone was going on-hit or lethality. But crit is supposed to be a late game build, so buffing it until people are able to rush into their crit power spike isn't a healthy solution; it creates other problems.

Like, maybe Twitch should be pretty weak until the 25/30 minute mark, given how incredibly strong he becomes. And if the state of the game is such that late-scaling strategies are completely unviable... that could be a problem with the state of the game, not necessarily with the scaling build in question.

AirKingNeo2 votes

Because early game cheesing ADCs were too dominate with an expensive IE. An expensive, higher power IE just makes adcs broken late game and unfun to fight.

doubleguac1 votes

I feel like Riot buffed the hell out of crit items because crit builds were taking too long to "activate," and so everyone was going on-hit or lethality. But crit is supposed to be a late game build, so buffing it until people are able to rush into their crit power spike isn't a healthy solution; it creates other problems.

Did you read what I posted? I acknowledged that this is why they reduced the price.

What I'm questioning is whether reducing IE's cost is a good, healthy solution to that (real) problem.

Just to reiterate: the problem is that lane bullies who built lethality were too oppressive for any crit marksmen to find success.

Riot's solution was to give crit marksmen a way earlier spike.

I'm suggesting that crit marksmen are supposed to have a late spike, and are spiking too early right now because of cheap crit items.

Maybe Riot needs to address the bullies or the effectiveness of the alternative (lethality and on-hit) builds instead of just speeding up all marksmen itemization.

It's classic power creep. Instead of nerfing the dominant strategy, they buffed the weaker one. Which is fine, sometimes. But I think marksmen, at this point, have just been overbuffed across the board because Riot keeps pursuing this strategy.

RocketRelm20 votes

I'll take that and raise you a item 3089 3500 to 3800.

qwerty123x45 votes

You forgot to mention Jinx, and she is getting overbuffed V8.2.

KennysDreamGirl4 votes

{quoted}

You forgot to mention Jinx, and she is getting overbuffed V8.2.

how is she overbuffed

General Esdeath 21 votes

bruh she's getting a nerf reverted because "she's too weak". She's just not on par with Vayne so she's weak I guess.

KennysDreamGirl2 votes

{quoted}

bruh she's getting a nerf reverted because "she's too weak". She's just not on par with Vayne so she's weak I guess.

which was what exactly i haven't seen anything about a revert. all surrender at 20 had was she gets some extra as from her minigun and her rockets feel snappier now and she loses base ad

General Esdeath 9 votes

The attack speed steroid was nerfed because she was too strong on release. I'll show you.

Patch notes 5.10

https://i.imgur.com/PNbNSw9.png

Jinx Q bonus attack speed scales with Jinx's level, meaning she needs to wait for late game for that sweet 2.5 attack speed. PAY CLOSE ATTENTION TO THOSE NUMBERS ON THE LINE ABOUT MAXIMUM MINIGUN ATTACK SPEED.

PBE notes

https://i.imgur.com/34vLEXQ.png

Notice how those were the old numbers? Notice how the attack speed buff no longer relies on her champion level? She doesn't need to wait for late game anymore. Also the "maximum" is missing, which might mean these are flat numbers, even stronger than before.

Vesemir4 votes

{quoted}

You forgot to mention Jinx, and she is getting overbuffed V8.2.

"lets improve her right clicking skills" riot logic

General Esdeath 14 votes

Careful, won't want to offend the balance team by saying ANYTHING negative, even in a polite way! I don't want to be banned so I won't say anything like they should be fired, or that they're actual idiots who don't play the game or are silver. That's something we wouldn't want to say.

I Love Roses2 votes

Says the silver player

General Esdeath 1 votes

Who was gold last season and the season before and just got placed. You got me good Roses, but your bait is weak.

PS the "they're silver" was a big meme that went around and made someone post their OP.GG accounts.

H1 H0w are Ya7 votes

If ADC's are so broken, then you having an ADC on your team should balance it out

Sasogwa43 votes

[{quoted}](name=H1 H0w are Ya,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E4qcvfxX,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-01-22T22:20:00.091+0000)

If ADC's are so broken, then you having an ADC on your team should balance it out

that's literally what trading stance said. Made me puke

AirKingNeo4 votes

Please link me the comment or hand me a picture of it. Preferably the link.

Master Noct11 votes

[{quoted}](name=H1 H0w are Ya,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E4qcvfxX,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-01-22T22:20:00.091+0000)

If ADC's are so broken, then you having an ADC on your team should balance it out

Even if it was like this, there's only so much you can do anyways, once someone picks MF/Vayne/Trist the game is basically screwed once they get 2-3 kills. they'll snowball, they'll roam, got other lanes fed... etc.

Hell, I've seen Draven so much less because Ez/Vayne/MF are so highly played off the lethality/hypercarry meta, it's bloody hard to kill them. Ez gets basically free flashes, Vayne needs to build IE/Guinsoos and you start melting, and Trist kills one, jumps towards another, resets, jumps to another, resets, etc. Any real pattern? They're mostly all low risk-high reward once they get going. Ez Q's you for 150-200 dmg, more even sometimes, and never loses lane pressure thanks to Klepto (which is a broken rune honestly), Vayne's true damage passive works with Guinn, so forget getting close and not getting W double procced on you instantly, and Trist has so much escape and engage potential its dumb, lol.

Infernal Ironic4 votes

Missfortune is like 9th best AD Carry so not the best example

Tier -7 LIST (Compared to other roles)

Tristana, Vayne, Twitch, Kog, Ezreal, Xayah

Tier -6 List

Cait, Varus, Kalista, Jinx (soon she ll be tier -7), Kindred but in jungle

Tier -5 List Missfortune, Draven, Ashe, Sivir

Tier 0 List Jhin

Yes a slight exageration realisticly no AD carry is below tier -4

saltran2 votes

PSA: MF isn't op anymore, look how her winrate dropped in the last weeks. And as a MF player I can say that she can't bully the hipercarries with Relic and she scales way worse. She isn't bad but there's no reason to pick her having Vayne/Twicht/Trist/Kog.

And if you want my opinion I say that hipercarries are more safe in lane now than in the ardent meta.

ChuShoe7 votes

I wouldn't have problems if it wasn't for crit. Crit is degenerate, and I wish adc's would build straight damage instead.

Lios Ashenblade3 votes

{quoted}

I wouldn't have problems if it wasn't for crit. Crit is degenerate, and I wish adc's would build straight damage instead.

lol nothing like catching that vayne tumble poke for half your health

ChaddyFantome3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lios Ashenblade,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E4qcvfxX,comment-id=00130000,timestamp=2018-01-23T15:15:17.964+0000)

lol nothing like catching that vayne tumble poke for half your health

That dank 1.2k auto damage.

Rewt6 votes

First off im gonna break this down.

ADC. AD Carry. Riot has literally decided that Bot lane is going to be the carry lane. its been this way for quite a long time. It wasnt like this during tank meta, but honestly. tank meta was a special kind of cancer that i hope never sees the light of day again.

Now you say that its dumb that twitch can jungle. In reality..... he is shit. I mean yea. if you just let him take his camps, then yea. he will start doing well. but twitch is so fucked if you just beat him to his second buff and murder his ass. Almost all the tank junglers will actually rape twitch early game. hell even the off meta ones like Rek Sai will have 0 problems killing him at Buff #2.

You also say that being a tank is pointless...... yea no. I am a tank jungle main. I pretty much play tanks exclusively. Sure i go around and play some off the wall shit occasionally, but generally speaking im playing, Tank hecarim, Tank WW, or Tank Red Kayn. and if im completely banned out i will pull out the tank rek sai.

In all of these cases the champ feels very strong. You do absurd damage because tanks are balanced thanks rito. While being simultaneously unkillable. Now heres something you need to come to realize.

ADCs are going to build an item that straight up removes 35% of your total armor. Ive found that recently ive just been going 1 armor and 1 MR item (generally its Deadmans and SV) then i go tabis or Swifties just depending on how im feeling. though i always go swifties on ww for obv reasons. And then im just stacking HP.

My standard build gets me to like 4900HP. But i only have like 120 of each resist. But lets look at it this way. after LW i have 78 armor but if i had 200 i go down to 130. seems big right? but heres the difference, that armor item is probably gonna be thornmail. so i got like 250 hp out of that. 100 armor or not that isnt even gonna save me from 1 more auto. So fuck it. Im gonna take Warmogs instead. Ill take a little more damage but i will survive longer and i can disengage and heal back up on my own.

ISLAMICWARRIOR991 votes

{quoted}

First off im gonna break this down.

ADC. AD Carry. Riot has literally decided that Bot lane is going to be the carry lane. its been this way for quite a long time. It wasnt like this during tank meta, but honestly. tank meta was a special kind of cancer that i hope never sees the light of day again.

Now you say that its dumb that twitch can jungle. In reality..... he is shit. I mean yea. if you just let him take his camps, then yea. he will start doing well. but twitch is so fucked if you just beat him to his second buff and murder his ass. Almost all the tank junglers will actually rape twitch early game. hell even the off meta ones like Rek Sai will have 0 problems killing him at Buff #2.

You also say that being a tank is pointless...... yea no. I am a tank jungle main. I pretty much play tanks exclusively. Sure i go around and play some off the wall shit occasionally, but generally speaking im playing, Tank hecarim, Tank WW, or Tank Red Kayn. and if im completely banned out i will pull out the tank rek sai.

In all of these cases the champ feels very strong. You do absurd damage because tanks are balanced thanks rito. While being simultaneously unkillable. Now heres something you need to come to realize.

ADCs are going to build an item that straight up removes 35% of your total armor. Ive found that recently ive just been going 1 armor and 1 MR item (generally its Deadmans and SV) then i go tabis or Swifties just depending on how im feeling. though i always go swifties on ww for obv reasons. And then im just stacking HP.

My standard build gets me to like 4900HP. But i only have like 120 of each resist. But lets look at it this way. after LW i have 78 armor but if i had 200 i go down to 130. seems big right? but heres the difference, that armor item is probably gonna be thornmail. so i got like 250 hp out of that. 100 armor or not that isnt even gonna save me from 1 more auto. So fuck it. Im gonna take Warmogs instead. Ill take a little more damage but i will survive longer and i can disengage and heal back up on my own.

Not even true, its called ad carry bc there are two roles in one lane, if 2 champs went mid mages would be called ap carry because that's what they are. Tanks >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>. 1v1 adc unless the adc is at least 5k gold ahead and adc need to be able to kill tanks fast bc tanks do so much absurd damage they would 1v5 if they didn't die.

xJLx MCHammer8 votes

{quoted}

Not even true, its called ad carry bc there are two roles in one lane, if 2 champs went mid mages would be called ap carry because that's what they are. Tanks >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>. 1v1 adc unless the adc is at least 5k gold ahead and adc need to be able to kill tanks fast bc tanks do so much absurd damage they would 1v5 if they didn't die.

This is false

The game isn't about a 1v1

It's a team game where ADC excel in.

quizotic6 votes

.......but weren't ADC's trash just at the start of season 7?

like I remember people putting mages on bot because even late game ADC's were trash , while keeping an Assassin mid.

And it stayed that way for a good 2-3 months if I remember correctly

so it hasn't been that long has it?

Karn Bishop25 votes

That was just fake news spread by adc mains thirsty for more power and sadly it worked.

JackMcSnipeyz5 votes

[deleted]

buPPDrmXEO7 votes

It's true tho. Don't you remember Reddit being flooded with nittpicky videos of ADCs not being able to kill an X champion or getting blown up in 0.5 secs but then you go and check the match history and see the ADC in question's team was down like 15k gold and he was feeding?

JackMcSnipeyz5 votes

No it's not true, the start of 2017 was absolute shit, nothing is okay about supports soloing marksmen in laning phase with support items. Or full tank divers going in 1v2 and bursting you like an assassin. The only viable carries were utility like sivir and ashe and jhin only because they woul be viable even from behind.

buPPDrmXEO6 votes

Dude, just stop and think for a second. If ADCs were truly as shit as you claim they were, the meta would've replaced them. But it didn't. When assassins are shit they're replaced with mages, when tanks are shit they're replaced with bruisers, mages, assassins, whatever.

If ADCs were shit they'd also be replaced, but they weren't - cause they weren't shit to begin with.

JackMcSnipeyz6 votes

Adc cannot be replaced because they are the only sieging tools who can apply it constantly on objectives. Thats how the game was always designed. Thay doesnt mean the class cant be weak compared to others, adc were only played bot because no other class can do their job, but it was a miserable experience and you had no power over the majority of the games, you just had to relay on your team to win and you tag along for objectives.

When adc were shit we had ziggs botlane, who is the only none adc who can siege objectives reliably.

Lios Ashenblade2 votes

But for real, I have never seen an adc, and hitler in the same room.... the only possible conclusion is they are all tiny hitler clones

Bird GirI1 votes

The amount of willful ignorance it takes to pull this card is astounding. I still don't understand how people can be this dishonest or just ignorant. Assassins and mages are in different categories despite being the only ones to dominate mid lane for years (besides some niche stuff like Galio or Yasuo). Bruisers and tanks are put into different categories despite being the only ones to dominate top for years. Tank supports and enchantresses are put into different categories despite being the only ones to dominate the support role for years. Hyper carries, early game marksmen, and utility marksmen don't get their own categories despite the fact that the three distinct groups typically take turns being meta. Right now is hyper carries. Early season 7 was utility carries because they were still useful while behind or when the role was weak.

Assassins replaced by mages? Come on. You're really gonna sit there and tell me that Leblanc and Ahri and Talon's mobility makes them so vastly distinct compared to mages while also willing to think Kog'Maw and Lucian are in the same class just because they share the sole similarity in that they right click to do damage?

Edit with one more example just so you fully see the picture: Imagine a world in which top lane is dominated by Olaf, Kled, Volibear, and Shen. Pretty decent mix of different classes in those 4 champs, right? But wait, they're all melee auto attackers! This is outrageous! Shen just got replaced by Tryndamere in patch 9.13, but it doesn't matter because most of the damage that they both deal is from auto attacks! Nothing has changed about this meta! Melee auto attackers are still broken! <- This is what people sound like when they pull the "ADC has been meta for seasons" card.

buPPDrmXEO1 votes

Wow, just wow I can't believe I've read this.

Seriously.

Riot should put "ADC main filter" on these boards so we can automatically hide posts from ADC mains.

Just reading through this aggravated me.

Bird GirI1 votes

{quoted}

Wow, just wow I can't believe I've read this.

Seriously.

Riot should put "ADC main filter" on these boards so we can automatically hide posts from ADC mains.

Just reading through this aggravated me.

Juice, dude. Why does it aggravate you? Please explain why your logic checks out for actually putting all marksmen in the same category but having the gall to say mages and assassins are that distinct in comparison. I'm genuinely curious as to what your response could be to what I said. Do you have anything to offer against my points other than imply that my logic is somehow flawed due to bias?

Edit: BTW I don't think marksmen are weak. I think they're actually pretty strong right now. I do agree with you on that. I just don't agree with the logic that a marksman always being bot is proof that they've always been too strong when someone of your rank and skill should know that a class built to take turrets and dps epic monsters will always be needed compared to the niche roles and assignments that assassins and mages have. If you want all of the marksmen archetypes to stop being meta at once and see something else bot besides Ziggs, you will have to change how the game functions. You will have to change the fact that turrets and epic monsters control your route to victory.

And to address what you said in your first post, just like how assassins get replaced by mages when they are shit, caster marksmen get replaced by utility marksmen or hypercarries when they are shit.

AMYS GRAVE1 votes

Yes, adc was weak when the only way to deal with the class was to 3-4-5 man camp bot for 10 min to keep them down.

JackMcSnipeyz3 votes

Can you even read? i was talking about start of 2017 not the current state of adc. You guys forget that the balance always shifts from class to class, just because adc are strong for a while doesnt mean they were never weak in any phase of this game's life span, your bias is blinding you

AMYS GRAVE2 votes

Can you even read?

No need to be an a-hole. And yes, the start of 2017 is what we are talking about with the bot lane camp meta.

JackMcSnipeyz3 votes

Bot lane will always be camped, you have more gold there because you have 2 people, you have a role dedicated to support your team in engages AND you got dragon. Add to all that the fact adc were free gold because anyone could walk over them, you got free 600 gold + Drake control + First turret because adc were still good at taking turrets. That had nothing to do with adc being strong, they were weak, if they werent the entire meme would be born. Did the adc 2k17 meme stick long after it was fixed? yea, but it origniated from somewhere and it wasnt adc players conspiring to take over the rift

AMYS GRAVE1 votes

Bot lane will always be camped,

Then why isn't every meta a bot lane camp meta. We haven't had that for some time now.

it origniated from somewhere and it wasnt adc players conspiring to take over the rift

Of course, they hated that their role had to be camped, and everyone hated that they had to camp them. It didn't stem from adcs being weak though, quite the contrary.

JackMcSnipeyz4 votes

you are cherry picking quotes when i fully explained why bot lane was camped, you clearly dont know how it was back then if you think the reason botlane was camped was because adc were strong. Botlane has a lot of things going for it, im not gonna explain it further cause you obviously ignore my reasons with "Lol adc OP" arguement, so w/e might aswell stop this here

AleksaTeemo2 votes

Bot is 40% of the team.OFC it would be camped.

Mizaya1 votes

Imaqtpie and a pro jungler agreed that they were weak but I guess it's the evil scumbag adc players as usual according to boards

LeBlanc Rose3 votes

Firstly, I agree the ADC meta is shit, even as a Vayne main.

One thing I would just like to point out is that the "Hypercarry ADC" meta was around for one patch, and will most likely not be played much due to Relic shield changes and various other nerfs. The previous issue was ADC's being too strong in lane and normal outside of it. Now, due to nerfs to most poke champions, Kalista, Draven and Lucian being pretty shit, relic shield becoming a viable pickup for ADCs, Vayne/Tristan's being OP, and various runes giving ADC's a free laning phase, all on the same patch, hypercarries became Very strong.

Wráthful2 votes

[deleted]

Zerenza2 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhvDsaSAGNc

I'd suggest you keep comments like that off the boards and get proper information.

Wráthful3 votes

{quoted}

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhvDsaSAGNc

I'd suggest you keep comments like that off the boards and get proper information.

yeah cuz phreak is definetly in the "Balance Team"

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