Why does Fiora's W (Riposte) slow attack speed?

Śhunpo·Oct 7, 2019·45 votes·16,006 views

Genuine question, why does it slow attack speed? It already allows her to avoid ALL damage (outside of towers), it slows and it deals damage. So why does it slow attack speed?

90 Comments

DartExplosion10Oct 7, 201960 votes

because riot has a fetish for overloading kits

Zero ShingetsuOct 7, 201926 votes

{quoted}

because riot has a fetish for overloading kits

Can't say it any better than this right here.

TyrekGoldenspearOct 7, 20196 votes

Hey we don't kinkshame here.

EonslegacyOct 9, 20191 votes

overloading badly designed kits. If it was just overloaded kits only the newest champ would be viable. Nah they gotta make it unique and terrible to play against too. Pyke For instance.

preternaturalOct 7, 201929 votes

it slows atk speed because fioras gimmick right now is that she auto wins.

DuskDaUmbreonOct 7, 20198 votes

Because it's a fairly narrow and easy to avoid skillshot with trivial damage (it has a fairly decent 110-270 base, but it also deals magic damage and scales exclusively with AP (and Fiora will never buy AP or magic pen - the only AP that she'd ever get would be from Baron). Sure, it has invulnerability, but it's also only .75 seconds of it and prevents her from doing anything.

The AS and MS slow is to make it not useless if your opponent doesn't have hard CC or has enough of a brain to not waste it. Kinda the same reason Eve's W and Sion's Q still slow even if they don't fully charge.

NyarlathοtepOct 7, 20194 votes

The examples you mentioned dont cripple. Sion's is also extremely short and he relies on q to do anything (and is also channeled).

The AS and MS slow is to make it not useless if your opponent doesn't have hard CC

Oh so basically she doesnt have (on paper) bad match ups. Enemy relies on hard cc? W. Enemy relies on atk speed? W.

While we are at it, how the fuck malp has such a good winrate vs fiora? She can parry his r (and thus stun him), she is relatively unaffected by his cripple (because of her q and e gives atk speed), malp relies on aa to deal a good chunk of his damage and she can w to cripple him, and lastly true dmg.

DuskDaUmbreonOct 7, 20192 votes

The examples you mentioned dont cripple.

It's almost like I was making an example based off another point.

Oh so basically she doesnt have (on paper) bad match ups. Enemy relies on hard cc? W. Enemy relies on atk speed? W.

No. She just has no matchups where her W is fucking useless.

While we are at it, how the fuck malp has such a good winrate vs fiora

Fucktons of armor.

NyarlathοtepOct 7, 20193 votes

No. She just has no matchups where her W is fucking useless.

Exactly. For an ability with such strength it should have a clear weakness. Yasuo's? Higher cd it affects projectiles only. Irelia's? It affects physical dmg only.

Fucktons of armor.

Which she entirely bypasses thanks to her passive.

DuskDaUmbreonOct 7, 20192 votes

Here's Fiora's W's weakness: It lasts .75 fucking seconds and locks her in place for the cast time. Even fucking Alpha Strike lasts longer. Yasuo's W lasts 4 seconds and lets him still move. Irelia's W lasts 1.5 seconds and can be stopped whenever she fucking pleases. Riposte might have a stronger effect than Windwall or Defiant Dance, but it also lasts only half the time of DD and a mere fifth of the time of WW, while being self-CC.

And, no, she doesn't bypass his armor entirely. Have you ever actually looked at Fiora? Against anyone not named Cho'gath or Sion, most of her damage throughout the game is physical. She has a lot of true damage, yes, but having a fuckton of armor will still massively cut her damage.

More for Malphite: I did also forget to mention the fact that Fiora's melee range (which I shouldn't have to mention), and Malph's ult is instant for movement and does the knockup as soon as he reaches his cast destination (which I also shouldn't have to mention), meaning she'd have to be either lucky as fuck or scripting to parry his ult while fighting, because she has all of .01 seconds. Her only option is to cast it as or before he casts, because it's humanly impossible to press the R key fast enough in that short of a timeframe otherwise (even if you plugged into Riot's servers directly to have a ping of 0, you still couldn't press the button in time if you're not a machine or able to manipulate time - Human reaction speeds just aren't that damn fast). If she doesn't go in, he just pokes her to death with Q. If she does, she has no way in hell to actually parry his ult.

She'd have the same problem against Annie if they were to ever be in the same lane as each other, although Annie wouldn't even need her to be in melee range to instastun with R.

NyarlathοtepOct 7, 20196 votes

I love how desperately you are trying to make her 0.75 duration as a bad thing. Keep trying to downplay it. You will one day succeed.

It lasts .75 fucking seconds and locks her in place for the cast time

For that 0.75 second she is invulnerable to everything a champ can do. You say its small, i say its high (considering what she can do).

Riposte might have a stronger effect than Windwall or Defiant Dance, but it also lasts only half the time of DD and a mere fifth of the time of WW, while being self-CC.

Stronger effect? My dude stop underestimating. For the next 0.75 the enemy champs cant hurt you while you are going to deal dmg in a single target, slow them and cripple them (because why not) for the next 2 seconds. And god help you if you rely on hard cc to kill anyone.

And, no, she doesn't bypass his armor entirely. Have you ever actually looked at Fiora? Against anyone not named Cho'gath or Sion, most of her damage throughout the game is physical. She has a lot of true damage, yes, but having a fuckton of armor will still massively cut her damage.

Maybe if you dont buy any hp at all. Otherwise she should win thanks to her sustain and true dmg.

and Malph's ult is instant for movement and does the knockup as soon as he reaches his cast destination

True but if you use ulti like that, fiora can just run away thanks to her q UNLESS you go ap malp.

If she doesn't go in, he just pokes her to death with Q. If she does, she has no way in hell to actually parry his ult.

If you go ap. Otherwise the this doesnt work. Now i dont know how you play malp, but i personally want him as the tank he was designed to be.

although Annie wouldn't even need her to be in melee range to instastun with R.

Actually annie's ulti does have a cast animation albeit a very small one. Malp's is only one of the few ultimates that have no cast animation whatsoever.

Z3SIeeperOct 7, 20196 votes

The cripple is simply a crutch training wheel mechanic that never got removed.

Why outskill your opponent when you can just remove any opportunity for them to fight back.

High skill champ eks dee.

EonslegacyOct 9, 20191 votes

Kerslam. Melee range malphite ults, hoping the edge of the circle hits the enemy. Reaction time isnt important because it has no travel or cast animation, just have to predict, cant parry while in the air so full combo hits. :D Full ap malphites plan. Tank malphites plan, leave lane R someone else come back, ignore fiora, repeat.

LordGeovanniOct 10, 20191 votes

~~For that 0.75 second she is invulnerable to everything a champ can do.~~ For that 0.75 second she is invulnerable to everything all champs can do.

Romans VI XXIIIOct 8, 20191 votes

For reference Garen (a juggernaut) gets .60s of 60% damage reduction. .75s of block everythng including CC is extremely powerful

EonslegacyOct 9, 20191 votes

problem is fioras a sustained damage auto attacker, and garens doesnt self stun. Fioras duration is just long enough to be obnoxious, but to long to be op. If it was a true parry it would be like .3 seconds long, allowing her to remove 1 move without locking herself down. If it was a defense move, it would be longer at around 1 second or so.

Rn its the worst of both worlds, long enough it parries the important move, but not quite short enough that it doesn't cut into her damage/chase potential/get rekt by follow up cc. __ Its not short enough to make her viable at team fighting, or long enough that you can walk away and dodge the slow on the self stunning fiora. Honestly i wish her parry was .25 seconds long. It would require parry skill and fiora would gain a LOT more utility since you wouldnt just throw another cc move at the self stunned fiora.

Romans VI XXIIIOct 9, 20191 votes

I mean that's my point. .75s is alot long than he was trying to make it out to be.

And I agree, it should be reduced in duration.

FioraWillCarryOct 8, 20191 votes

I once parried a Malphite ultimate totally by accident. Felt so pro. Would have never admitted it was by accident if anyone noticed it.

As for Annie. It's pretty easy to parry her stun since Annie is far easier to predict. Walk up to her and let her see that you're approaching her and just Q-W. 99% of Annie players would throw a passive-empowered Q or Ult as soon as you're in range. I mean think about it, what else is she going to do? A clever Annie who knows what you're trying to do would just run away which means you've just zoned her.

EonslegacyOct 9, 20191 votes

"a clever annie" wont be on the stun stax. she will drop tibbers on you and walk away.

Minimac2000Oct 7, 201911 votes

{quoted}

The examples you mentioned dont cripple. Sion's is also extremely short and he relies on q to do anything (and is also channeled).

Oh so basically she doesnt have (on paper) bad match ups. Enemy relies on hard cc? W. Enemy relies on atk speed? W.

While we are at it, how the fuck malp has such a good winrate vs fiora? She can parry his r (and thus stun him), she is relatively unaffected by his cripple (because of her q and e gives atk speed), malp relies on aa to deal a good chunk of his damage and she can w to cripple him, and lastly true dmg.

Malphite has a good winrate vs her bc malphite has transcended and is no longer a tank. He is now a full ap teamfight one ability 3-4 champ assassin.... duh also probably because fiora players are braindead and can't parry for shit unless they are on the enemy team

SaezioOct 7, 20193 votes

what kind of dumbass team piles 3-4 together vs ap malp? xD

AP malph is a 1 for 1 trade mechanism when the enemy doesn't have flash/MR/Peel/Shields/Stopwatch

Z3SIeeperOct 7, 20196 votes

what kind of dumbass malph doesn’t wait until enemies inevitably clump together because 5 uncoordinated players don’t magically move in a separated formation without ever coming closer than 3 teemos towards one another.

LordGeovanniOct 10, 20191 votes

While true you wait so long for that ideal scenario you lose everything getting poked out before that.

Z3SIeeperOct 10, 20191 votes

That's assuming the opposing side has better poke though.

Also typically the threat of a Malphite ultimate is enough for people to keep their distance. Much like the threat of a Blitz that hasn't tossed his Q out yet.

LordGeovanniOct 10, 20191 votes

Only to people who cant play . the reality of it is that some one is more than likely gonna get hit with the malphite ult. The best way to deal with it is to make him so low he cant afford to stick around. You can poke malphite with Adc autos as well as mage or assassin poke just dont all group up on the same place and you are set

Z3SIeeperOct 10, 20191 votes

I don't think Malphites typically stand in auto range as they wait for a good ult.

LordGeovanniOct 11, 20191 votes

He does if he is fishing for an ult as his ult range isnt much longer than most adcs auto range. you cant flash into ult every single ult of the game unless you down right arent using it much. Most adcs building crit or in their kits will have a free movement speed buff that costs little to no mana that they can use to tap malphite playing at the edge of his range and run back. They can eventually get solo ulted but then his team just wins if it doesnt kill due to a variety of reasons.

Tomoe GozenOct 8, 20192 votes

Malphite was always a good AP Assassin. Are people right now discovering that Malphite can do this? This was in the game for years.

FioraWillCarryOct 8, 20191 votes

It boggles the mind. And to make matters worse it's not even that good. AP Malphite is shit and was always shit. It's fun when you get fed off noobs and start blowing up people instantly, no doubt but I would NEVER use that as a serious tactic to win. It doesn't work vs people that have a working brain.

Tomoe GozenOct 9, 20191 votes

It's good if you're ganking squishies. The idea here is not that you have that much AP to kill people, just to weaken the enemy enough so that they can easily be cleaned up under the duration of the CC your ult provides.

The thing about AP Malp is not to build him like a glass rock, it's building him tanky AP that's better. And the more you manage to put your opponents behind and win the game before their power spikes, the less you have to worry about not having enough damage into the late game to make an impact and actually see the downfall of not going down the tank route.

FioraWillCarryOct 9, 20192 votes

Thing is, there are champions that do what he does so much better. Annie is a good example. Diana is an even better example. I tried AP Malphite a couple times and I felt it was just utter shit. It's fun if you get going but it's far too unreliable to be considered competitive. It's just some shit you do when you're in norms with friends. I have no idea why people think this is good all of a sudden.

EonslegacyOct 9, 20191 votes

Nah its just now its the MOST viable strategy he has. Heck its the only viable strategy he has.

LordGeovanniOct 10, 20191 votes

Because they need to feel smart with Countering that mages and adcs are over tuned with the false notion tht tanks do too much damage becuase their ranged carry found themsleves in melee range of tank with no defenses and got chunked out as if they shouldnt die with no defenses but tanks have to build full defense to hold out for 3 seconds or 3 rounds of poke.

FioraWillCarryOct 8, 20192 votes

If you're playing Fiora into Malphite, you better pray he is going AP Malphite. That is the only way you can hope to win that lane.

KrypticBeingOct 8, 20193 votes

{quoted}

The examples you mentioned dont cripple. Sion's is also extremely short and he relies on q to do anything (and is also channeled).

Oh so basically she doesnt have (on paper) bad match ups. Enemy relies on hard cc? W. Enemy relies on atk speed? W.

While we are at it, how the fuck malp has such a good winrate vs fiora? She can parry his r (and thus stun him), she is relatively unaffected by his cripple (because of her q and e gives atk speed), malp relies on aa to deal a good chunk of his damage and she can w to cripple him, and lastly true dmg.

You build bramble and tabis and fiora will outrade herself. She does %hp true dng and malph builds no hp early. He builds gauntlet. It is very hard to predict malph ult if the player has a brain.

NyarlathοtepOct 8, 20191 votes

{quoted}

You build bramble and tabis and fiora will outrade herself. She does %hp true dng and malph builds no hp early. He builds gauntlet. It is very hard to predict malph ult if the player has a brain.

I never understood how bramble helps so much vs fiora. The only good thing about it its the GW. The damage is very low. As for gaunlet, if he rushes that he has low waveclear, plus no effective hp for later on. It helps vs her in the laning phase but past that he will be in a severe disadvantage.

XJ99999999999999Oct 8, 20193 votes

{quoted}

I never understood how bramble helps so much vs fiora. The only good thing about it its the GW. The damage is very low. As for gaunlet, if he rushes that he has low waveclear, plus no effective hp for later on. It helps vs her in the laning phase but past that he will be in a severe disadvantage.

the "low damage" adds up and makes the healing she gets (that is reduced) non existent. It also makes hp regen lower.

DuskDaUmbreonOct 8, 20192 votes

It's armor and GW. The damage return is just the cherry on top to completely negate her passive healing early on, which means she just slowly dies - Faster than you die if you're competent enough to attack back.

EonslegacyOct 9, 20191 votes

Q auto, e auto, e 2 auto, she heals via ad ratio on passive plus low base. Chopping her healing is great. Armor is great vs the full ad auto spam she does. Stacks well with ninja tabi and randuins. Does damage to fiora to negate vital healing, and do some good damage (especially with after shock up) to a non vital hit. Thats why bramble is good. _ For the no waveclear thing, junglers are what WIN top lane, pre 6 and sometimes pre 11. Waveclearing to fast such as with tiamat, makes you an ez gank, especially for something like malphite than Can R half a screen to give engage/has a point and click slow. You cant really deal with a 2v1 in this burst meta unless 1 or BOTH players make MASSIVE errors in gameplay. You just have to run away and hope the damage you do take isnt too much to kill/force you to recall. Nothing stops the double gank either. If they almost kill you 1 time and you stay you are gonna die to the second.

Sinister AnubisOct 7, 20195 votes

It only slows attack speed if it wasn't a hard cc ability she avoided, so they added that to compensate for select use of the ability.

Z3SIeeperOct 7, 20196 votes

To compensate for proper use of the ability. High skillcap champions have to have an answer to every situation afterall.

mark6028Oct 7, 20195 votes

What a time to be alive where the boards defend shit design like fiora that only exists to automatically win the laning phase forever and ever with zero counterplay to anyone except picking kennen or another ranged cheeser.

Ah i forgot no one plays toplane her but keeps telling toplaners what the state of their lane is and how fun and fair and balanced fiora is when you never have to fight this shit in your life. Then most of you are mage or adc players anyways and kill her before she can ever do anything.

But the same people defending fiora get a mental breakdown if darius is not trash tier because "axe man op". One of the most counterplayable champs in the game.

No wonder this game is so shit with such a shit community.

ŚhunpoOct 8, 20192 votes

I agree, except for the fact that you forget that axe man might be a tad too overwhelming in terms of his passive. Maybe axe man could chill with his bonus AD :P

FrikgeekOct 7, 20194 votes

Because it's a very easy way to make someone extremely good at 1v1ing bruisers earlygame. With the attack speed slow she can easily win trades even if she doesn't riposte a big ability or hard CC. An example would be Jax vs Fiora. If Fiora throws out the riposte immediately she's sure to win the trade because Jax relies on his autos a lot. If she tries to riposte the counterstrike Jax can hold it a bit longer and try to bait out the riposte, getting the stun and a W then jumping out to win the trade.

Riot has decided that Fiora absolutely has to win earlygame 1v1s vs bruisers so that AS slow is necessary.

DuskDaUmbreonOct 7, 201912 votes

Yeah....she'd lose that trade hard if she just instantly threw out W. She's CC'd herself for pretty much all of the recast delay on Jax's E, giving him a free stun on her. He might have less AS, but he also has an AA reset (which inherently ignores cripples), and now she's actually stunned, meaning he can hit her a couple times then walk away.

If she doesn't at least dodge his E she's going to lose the trade.

FioraWillCarryOct 8, 20191 votes

Only a noob Fiora will W Jax for the attack speed slow. You should ALWAYS use her W to parry his E stun. You absolutely will not win trades vs Jax if you only parry for the attack speed slow. Do not forget that Fiora is an auto reliant champion above all and she will do no damage to him when he uses his E. The only exception is if his E is on cooldown while your W is up, but even in such a case, Fiora wins even without the attack speed slow, especially if she has her ultimate.

If I were a teacher answering a student on how to win as Fiora into Jax, I'd say always all in him when his E is on cooldown or you manage to parry it into a stun. If you parry and didn't get the stun, run like hell because he will kill you whether you parried too early or too late.

FrikgeekOct 8, 20191 votes

You can't reliably parry his E since he's never forced to E as soon as he's able to. The recast delay is 1 second and the duration is 2 seconds. THe activation is near instant. For Fiora if you want to parry the instant 1s activation you leave yourself open to the full 2s one. If you want to parry the 2s activation you leave yourself to the 1s instant one. The only reliable way to get value from your W is to use it for the AS slow which completely destroys Jax's ability to retaliate. And not surprisingly this is what you most often see master-challenger Fioras doing in the matchup. Q-weakpoint, auto, E1, riposte, E2, Q the fuck out of there. Jax can't afford to Q into your full minion wave even with E up since his earlygame Q CD is too long . And unless he's running ignite instead of TP for some weird reason he doesn't have the damage to just 100-0 you at lvl 3-4.

FioraWillCarryOct 8, 20191 votes

Fiora into Jax is one of those match ups where you don't really play against the champion but against the player. You have to get inside his head. Try to catch him being clever and "out clever" him. Clever Jax players would try to switch it up on you and you have to predict when the will and respond accordingly. And if he is not clever, he will simply use his E the same way every time. I've played against both kinds and parrying his E is not as hard as you might think. On a good day you might miss one in every 4. It's one of the most fun match ups in League. Just pure fuckin mind games.

ImbetterthanmoeOct 7, 20191 votes

Yeh im pretty sure all ms slows now slow attack speed aswell, i dont know when this started (beginning of the season maybe) but its killer fighting verses champs like malph, nasus, and fiora and just staring at them cause you have 0.0001 attackspeed

DracocrashOct 7, 20195 votes

{quoted}

Yeh im pretty sure all ms slows now slow attack speed aswell, i dont know when this started (beginning of the season maybe) but its killer fighting verses champs like malph, nasus, and fiora and just staring at them cause you have 0.0001 attackspeed

Malphite does not slow your movement speed with his E, only attack speed.