I keep seeing this in Lee Sin arguments but it doesnt make any sense.

Skorch·Apr 19, 2017·27 votes·1,613 views

"We measure by plat winrates (not because thats where he is 50% so our argument is valid) but because he is mechanically difficult" 5min later "A mechanically difficult champion shouldnt be sitting on a 50% winrate."

I thought that is why you were going by Plat, because around then is when players get mechanically good.

https://imgflip.com/s/meme/Jackie-Chan-WTF.jpg

Not saying Lee isnt strong, but like, this argument is horrible.

29 Comments

Titanium70Apr 19, 201711 votes

I found your understanding problem:

You overestimate Plat players. xD

During my time in League I've seen alot - from Silver to Diamond - and belive me, a somewhat difficult Champ with high popularity should NEVER EVER have a high winrate, no matter in which elo! ^^

If you want to balance a hard to play Champ you have to look at its REAL mains around high Plat and Dia - not at his global stats. (They did this with Aurelion quite good - sadly, he's overbalanced now - but they failed with a bunch of others.)

AmetDeCryptApr 19, 20173 votes

he's got like one skillshot and everything else is aoe or targeted. I don't mean to put him down but lulu has more mechanical intensity in her kit than him because her shield can actually miss if someone stands over the ally.

SkorchApr 19, 20173 votes

Im not here to argue wether or not he's difficult. Just make your arguments make sense.

AmetDeCryptApr 19, 20171 votes

I don't see how it didn't. your argument made about 34% sense to me so I took on whatever point I could. my point being lulu's shield can also be used on enemies for some damage and it's infuriating sometimes when they stand over the ally and I can't shield them at all. even more with minions since they can be used like that, not that she's hard per se, but she has a kit similar in difficulty to his in mechanics terms, more depending on whom you ask.

SkorchApr 19, 20172 votes

Let me rephrase that, not your as in YOUR argument, but your as in general Lee Sin arguments.

AmetDeCryptApr 19, 20172 votes

wait so the reply to me was meant for anyone else that posted on this thread?

that's only mildly totally confusing.

SkorchApr 19, 20171 votes

Sort of. More of ABSOLUTELY ANYONE WHO DOESNT LIKE LEE, if you are gonna argue about them, please make sense. Directed at YOU mainly for discussion sake as this thread is also about this point. Yeah thats kinda confusing i guess but oh well.

AmetDeCryptApr 19, 20172 votes

well I don't mind lee himself, he's ok, I just don't like the people that go full ad lee and dive oneshot combo nuke the support whether he's on my team or the other because he's really not doing anything for the game at that point. I also don't care that he's a jack of all trades master of none so long as riot keeps that balance so he truly is a master of none like he hasn't been at certain points when he's super strong.

SkiasApr 19, 20172 votes

{quoted}

he's got like one skillshot and everything else is aoe or targeted. I don't mean to put him down but lulu has more mechanical intensity in her kit than him because her shield can actually miss if someone stands over the ally.

Yeah, Lee Sin's mechanical intensity to do his job is really low. Maybe its harder to insec, flash mastery, jerk off, Q to enemy, recall to shop, Q again and kill the target. Or you could just R Q Q.

KONO RUBICK DAApr 19, 20173 votes

lee sin circlejerk yasuo circlejerk and add to this i don't know how many others

they want to nerf a champion because they hate playing against them, and bring subjectivity to balance

but once you point out that they have 50% win rate, and 56% win rate on mains (which is nothing compared to other balanced champions) they get out of their mind

HalcyonDwellerApr 19, 20173 votes

This is because quoting statistics is a cop-out. All arguments based on statistics are subject to suspicion in my mind. It's far too easy to make generalizations based on those stats.

The only arguments I pay attention to are the ones that provide analysis to back up their position. Quoting statistics can be OK if they provide explanations and quality analysis to back them up.

The best discussions focus on how the kit works and how it impacts play, interactivity, and balance.

xJLx MCHammerApr 19, 20172 votes

I find it funny that a champion who is "mechanically" difficult to play has an insane pick-rate, but someone everyone that plays him can do mediocre. Clearly, there is something on this champion that allows nearly anyone to do really well with him.

Go figure!

SkorchApr 19, 20174 votes

Im not saying wether or not he IS difficult, im just pointing out the hypocrisy and ignorance in this argument. I saw someone bring up he has a 47% winrate pre-Plat, to prove he IS at least somewhat difficult and/or bad right now. But since he is mechanically difficult doesnt a 50% PLAT winrate sound right?

Personally i think according to his Winrates Lee is probably fine. Something people dont talk about is how a 41% pickrate AND a 50% winrate is actually really good and probably shows decent balance. That is A LOT of people still managing an even winrate, but then people bring up his difficulty, but then again the 50% winrate is in Plat and the argument just loops again.

The only way to make him have a less playrate is either to make him just flat out BAD or flat out LESS FUN. and that isnt a good balance point to me.

no to toxicApr 19, 20171 votes

A champion with mobility healthy clears and more utility then the average ad jungler either has to be bad or less fun. You know I`m preety sure most Lee sin mains would still play him if they removed 50 base dmg from both of his Qs. Unlless League players just want to play the strongest to have the most fun meaning every jungler will be fun to them.

Malix FarwinApr 19, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=xJLx MCHammer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E3Ph0taP,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-04-19T02:40:24.529+0000)

I find it funny that a champion who is "mechanically" difficult to play has an insane pick-rate, but someone everyone that plays him can do mediocre. Clearly, there is something on this champion that allows nearly anyone to do really well with him.

Go figure!

Didn't they do a change a few seasons ago to make him easier to play ?

iLLpApr 19, 20172 votes

welcome to gameplay

where everyone only uses evidence that supports their arguments and dismisses any evidence against it with their hive mind mentalities.

FiddlesOnTheRoofApr 19, 20171 votes

I just want to know why all the people crying that Lee is op don't just play him and climb to challenjour. I mean, I hate the champion too, but I hold no illusion that he's broken.

DivewingApr 19, 20171 votes

I'd rather drink nuclear waste than touch Lee sin

ScissorsNstuffApr 19, 20171 votes

you make it sound like "mechanically difficult" means anything in league. Seriously, how many buttons do you usually use in a 60 second time frame.

GreenBoÍApr 19, 20171 votes

All i wish for is that his ult would have alteast single way of countering -.- Cuz probably its the only ult that has 0 counters I mean, You cant zhonya from it, cant QSS , cant flash or dash and not to mention you get stuned for like 0,5 secs when he presses the button on you... AND HE CAN FLASH DURING ULT? RLY????

The Sword SaintApr 21, 20171 votes

You can do all of those things in reaction...

Sexy Jack RabbitApr 19, 20171 votes

I think it just relates back to "Mechanical Skill" being something that shouldn't be taken into account as hard as it is.

A champion can be hard to play, but that's no real excuse for them to be unbridgeable broken. Have a look at release Season 5 - 6 Nidalee. RiotPenguin jerked off how "Mechanically" hard she was and that we need that in the game, when it was just a case of Nidalee being broken af.

I seriously agree, People need to stop being like "This champion is hard to play so they need to be below 50%". No, not really? That's like saying Kayle should be buffed to always highest win rate in the game because she's the simplest champion.

The Sword SaintApr 21, 20171 votes

Spoiler, Kayle has for many many seasons topped the charts in winrates on and off.

Sexy Jack RabbitApr 22, 20171 votes

That was the point.

LauchmelderApr 19, 20171 votes

I thought the plat+ argument has it's origins in different stat sites only using plat+ stats.

The Sword SaintApr 21, 20171 votes

Websites only use plat+ stats because riot has many times over the years stated they balance based on stats from plat+ games because below that level people don't consistently understand how to play the game and actually take advantage of weaknesses/counterplay that's available.

nice tableApr 19, 20171 votes

people who think plat players are good LUL

StinrygarApr 20, 20172 votes

Objectively, relative to the game as a whole even just for the more dedicated players who rank, Plat 5 is ~top 7% and Plat 4 is ~top 5%. That's pretty good in any endeavor.

AMYS GRAVEApr 19, 20171 votes

We talk about balance for Plat+ not because of mechanical skill but game knowledge. There are many mechanically gifted players in silver/gold, but they stay there because they don't understand wave manipulation, or the macro game, or the relative value of objectives, or that you shouldn't pick fights 3v5, etc.... Once you reach plat+ players generally understand the game flow and the champion's actual power can be infered from the win rates instead of the other game knowledge factors which come into play. There are still mechanically inept players in plat, but at least they are failing at their champion instead of the game in general.