I just want to say this about toxicity and league...

option paralysis·Oct 10, 2017·49 votes·2,423 views

I know this is a touchy subject at riot, they don't tolerate it, and they want a toxic free environment for the game. However, I think it's partly their fault too. If they didn't push bad teammates down our throats during the infamous promo games and winning streaks... the game would be a much better and a stress free environment. I have played thousands of ranked games over the years and series/promo games were always so toxic and filled with bad players on massive losing streaks or below 50% win rate. Those kind of games are torture and no surprise that they make players toxic or just disappointed in the game. Another big reason is the winning streak problem. When I have one, I actually don't want to play after, because I know I gotta lose the same amount of games that I won. I would understand if I fed and lost the game, but you just get matched with worse teammates and the system says 'here carry these 45% win rate guys against those 60% win rate players.' A recepy for toxicity if I ever saw one. Every action has a reaction, riot. Don't make a frustrating matchmaking and then wonder like a toddler why is there much toxicity.

38 Comments

InfinitexMortalOct 10, 201710 votes

[{quoted}](name=tough noogies,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E2AEhaOQ,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-10-10T13:24:04.407+0000)

I know this is a touchy subject at riot, they don't tolerate it, and they want a toxic free environment for the game. However, I think it's partly their fault too. If they didn't push bad teammates down our throats during the infamous promo games and winning streaks... the game would be a much better and a stress free environment. I have played thousands of ranked games over the years and series/promo games were always so toxic and filled with bad players on massive losing streaks or below 50% win rate. Those kind of games are torture and no surprise that they make players toxic or just disappointed in the game. Another big reason is the winning streak problem. When I have one, I actually don't want to play after, because I know I gotta lose the same amount of games that I won. I would understand if I fed and lost the game, but you just get matched with worse teammates and the system says 'here carry these 45% win rate guys against those 60% win rate players.' A recepy for toxicity if I ever saw one. Every action has a reaction, riot. Don't make a frustrating matchmaking and then wonder like a toddler why is there much toxicity.

Well said sir. This is my biggest frustration with this game. Honestly i feel like the forced 50% winrate really kills the game. And yes to those who say "well faker has a 70% winrate get gud" i say to you the best player IN THE WORLD only can get a 70% winrate...thats a C- clearly there is an issue with that.

Starcraft243verOct 11, 20172 votes

Honestly i feel like the forced 50% winrate really kills the game.

That's actually what makes the game really good wtf...

And it's not a "forced" 50% winrate. It's a forced 50% winrate as long as you play vs people with the same skills as you. It's not even forced, it's what happens statistically when you are playing against and with people of your average level.

Go learn how ELO system was created for chess and you'll understand why it gives a 50% winrate on average.

BlakiepugOct 10, 20178 votes

Not to mention that the honors system now promote carrying games as opposed to being a friendly player. I have seen countless players who flame all game, whether on my own team or through all-chat, that receive 3+ honors in the post-game lobby.

Oakleaf RangerOct 11, 20172 votes

Honor the toxic/non toxic not feeding or carrying player or the friendly player feeding? Yah friendliness doesn't change the fact that the enemy champion with a level advantage and gold advantage is diving me and fisting me under tower, melting, or bursting me while you barely tickle minions.

iamthegoatofwarOct 11, 20173 votes

In ranked if you can't carry your weight in any form...regardless of how friendly you are you're worthless to me there.

InfinitexMortalOct 10, 20177 votes

Also promos in general do not belong in a MMR based ranked system. It makes 0 sense. If the system is based around a hidden elo number when you reach the next level you should be the next level not have to make it threw 1 or 2 "promo" games, that usually seem onesided with matchmaking, just to be allowed to be in the elo your MMR is. Seems like the only reason Riot implemented promos into the ladder was to make it far harder to actually climb.

ARAM ZooKeeperOct 10, 20175 votes

[{quoted}](name=tough noogies,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E2AEhaOQ,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-10-10T13:24:04.407+0000)

I know this is a touchy subject at riot, they don't tolerate it, and they want a toxic free environment for the game. However, I think it's partly their fault too. If they didn't push bad teammates down our throats during the infamous promo games and winning streaks... the game would be a much better and a stress free environment. I have played thousands of ranked games over the years and series/promo games were always so toxic and filled with bad players on massive losing streaks or below 50% win rate. Those kind of games are torture and no surprise that they make players toxic or just disappointed in the game. Another big reason is the winning streak problem. When I have one, I actually don't want to play after, because I know I gotta lose the same amount of games that I won. I would understand if I fed and lost the game, but you just get matched with worse teammates and the system says 'here carry these 45% win rate guys against those 60% win rate players.' A recepy for toxicity if I ever saw one. Every action has a reaction, riot. Don't make a frustrating matchmaking and then wonder like a toddler why is there much toxicity.

I agree 100%

In a game that is extremely competitive and entirely team-dependent, obviously players will be frustrated if the matchmaking constantly sabotages them with liabilities as teammates.

As I have said before, I wish Riot would invest HALF the effort into matchmaking that they invest into punishing "toxic" players. They are focusing on hiding the symptoms rather than working on a cure for the disease. The disease, toxicity, is the result of matchmaking not being capable of giving players fair games.

I'm not sure why it is so difficult for Riot to understand... if you want everyone to be polite and say "GG", you have to provide a GG. If I'm 5-0 in lane and my ADC is 0-14 and toxic, it isn't a GG. It's Riot's matchmaking wasting my time.

only zhuleOct 10, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=BBQ In Mid Lane,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E2AEhaOQ,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-10-10T16:12:10.297+0000)

I agree 100%

In a game that is extremely competitive and entirely team-dependent, obviously players will be frustrated if the matchmaking constantly sabotages them with liabilities as teammates.

As I have said before, I wish Riot would invest HALF the effort into matchmaking that they invest into punishing "toxic" players. They are focusing on hiding the symptoms rather than working on a cure for the disease. The disease, toxicity, is the result of matchmaking not being capable of giving players fair games.

I'm not sure why it is so difficult for Riot to understand... if you want everyone to be polite and say "GG", you have to provide a GG. If I'm 5-0 in lane and my ADC is 0-14 and toxic, it isn't a GG. It's Riot's matchmaking wasting my time.

What you are asking for is basically for the game to literally read the players minds / mood, before every match. How is the game suppose to know when a player is salty vs totally calm? I've had games where i won and went 10/0/x and been salty as the sea by the end. I've had games where i got stomped into the ground from minute 1 and still left that game cool and collected.

The issue that needs to be addressed is not peoples assumption of "wasted time" it's the people who are assholes simply for the sake of being an asshole. You know the type, "GG EZ" despite the game being super close till team X got off an ultimate half a second before team Y and thus secured a win. Or bottom lane flaming jungle / mid because they never got ganks (player tried 6-8 times and enemy always pulled back or had their jungle rotate down to stop the 3v2). And of course the people who do feed / play poorly simply to piss off their team, but even these are hard to pin down sometimes. is the mid who went 3/16/x feeding on purpose or where they just super focused by the enemy team for most of the game?

ARAM ZooKeeperOct 10, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=only zhule,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E2AEhaOQ,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2017-10-10T19:11:58.674+0000)

What you are asking for is basically for the game to literally read the players minds / mood, before every match. How is the game suppose to know when a player is salty vs totally calm? I've had games where i won and went 10/0/x and been salty as the sea by the end. I've had games where i got stomped into the ground from minute 1 and still left that game cool and collected.

No.

The "minds and moods" of players has nothing to do with what I said.

Players who go 0-14 have no business being in ranked, yet alone silver. The matchmaking should be more than capable of flagging stuff like that and removing them.

only zhuleOct 12, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=BBQ In Mid Lane,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E2AEhaOQ,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2017-10-10T22:10:26.642+0000)

No.

The "minds and moods" of players has nothing to do with what I said.

Players who go 0-14 have no business being in ranked, yet alone silver. The matchmaking should be more than capable of flagging stuff like that and removing them.

What you had said don't tell us WHY the ADC was 0-14 and toxic. Are they having a bad game? did their support AFK/DC? Is their support being a troll, but they are the ones getting shit on by team? is the enemy jungle and/ or mid camping bottom and no one is helping / punishing that choice? where they first pick and got SUPER counter picked, and can't even farm under tower safely?

You didn't paint a picture of why someone is doing poorly, and why they are aggressive.

Honestly the "answer" to this kind of issue is pretty easy. Report cards for both you and those you reported:

For personal use, you receive a notice once every..... 20 games lets say. This tells you if and why you were reported. This lets players who actually care to review what people have complained about and work to improve on those things. For those who don't care it's an easy for for Riot to say "hey look, we warned you about being a shit. Now you have face the fallout".

For those you reported, You receive a notice whenever someone you reported in the last X time frame receives a punishment. This gives the player base a feeling of happiness that reporting actually does something. Now you know that the guy who "fed all game" was suspended/ banned for pulling that shit in multiple games. The person who spent 20-30 minutes throwing insults at you, your team mates, and the enemy team, they are now banned from chat for 2 weeks. You now know for a fact that your effort to report them did something, it wasn't just pissing into the wind and hoping something happened (and believing it never would).

ARAM ZooKeeperOct 12, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=only zhule,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E2AEhaOQ,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2017-10-12T02:15:53.835+0000)

What you had said don't tell us WHY the ADC was 0-14 and toxic. Are they having a bad game? did their support AFK/DC? Is their support being a troll, but they are the ones getting shit on by team? is the enemy jungle and/ or mid camping bottom and no one is helping / punishing that choice? where they first pick and got SUPER counter picked, and can't even farm under tower safely?

You didn't paint a picture of why someone is doing poorly, and why they are aggressive.

Honestly the "answer" to this kind of issue is pretty easy. Report cards for both you and those you reported:

My point is it doesn't matter WHY the ADC is 0-14, the question is WHY did Riot's matchmaking think selecting them for my team was fair?

I agree about reports... anything that is a metric for individual skill would help the matchmaking system stop producing such impossibly hopeless matchups... which simply should not happen in ranked at any ELO.

only zhuleOct 10, 20174 votes

The level of entitlement from OP is quite funny. First lets not lie, we have all been "That bad / skill-less player" at least a few times in ranked matches. Also you pile all the blame on having bad teammates, but make no comment on the possible idea that your team mates are fine- good BUT simply playing against players who are better. In theory (because i don't know how the system works off hand) wouldn't it stand to reason that if you are on a winning streak, that you would be paired up against people who are also on the same kind of streak?

The whole rant also totally fails to address the issue of what happens when you put all the "bad" players together. It's already bad dealing with people who nit pick every time you don't make "LCS pro gamer plays", but imagine for a moment your entire team (including you) are that person PLUS the entire enemy team is that person.

TheSingularityOct 11, 20173 votes

wouldn't it stand to reason that if you are on a winning streak, that you would be paired up against people who are also on the same kind of streak?

No, riot has stated in the past that they try to gently nudge you towards a 50% winrate because it makes balancing the game easier (otherwise one tricks would inflate win rates like crazy indicating a problem when there isn't one). While I don't disagree that the system is rigged, it isn't "vs these high winrate players", it is "vs these VASTLY SUPERIOR PLAYERS!" with an average team. If the system worked like you state, there would be people who climb pathetically easy and people who never win, as logically you'd have losing streak people matched with other losing streak people, who in turn keep on losing.

Anecdotally, during my promos to gold, I got into them easily multiple times, but because that'd be a 3 game win streak (on average) with silver 123 and gold 5's (which jumps my winrate over 50%) the system tries to balance my winrate out and WITHOUT FAIL, during 13 promo series', the enemy team consisted of a few mid golds and low plat players, meanwhile I have a team of low silver and high bronze players! They are not necessarily on losing streaks, but to expect that to go well and I quote the OP, is "A recepy for toxicity if I ever saw one". Testing whether or not I am worth gold V by smashing me against platinum and high golds is not an accurate depiction of where I should be. It isn't fun for me, it isn't fun for the 4 poor souls who are stuck in this mess because of MY promo series they just happen to be involved with. Leaving only the enemy team enjoying themselves. I got promoted with pure luck, I got 2 free wins and then vsed a team an afk bot duo. Wow, yay I feel so good about getting a free ticket into gold.

This environment breeds toxicity, because you're indeed matched with people who are worse than you in order to force a loss by placing your team against won that's vastly superior.

PrimalWo1fOct 10, 20174 votes

100% agree.. This game is shit .. Bad programmers .. someone please but out riot and get a real programmers running this shit. Riot gives you nothing but troll teams that are not at same skill level as you and then bans players for getting pissed off with the same bullshit every fucking! game!!

AND EVERY FUCKING GAME!! id it up to me to carry every time I play??

CaveslothOct 11, 20174 votes

Riot and common sense don't mix. They want to waste your time, then blame you if your toxic while they ram a bad team down your throat for doing well.

AnastaeciaOct 10, 20173 votes

This bad teams in promos thing is bogus. The system has enough trouble making quick matches of 10 players without having to sit back and figure out how to screw you in your promos. Besides, all it takes is one person that is tilted or on a "new" champ, etc to lose a game. The computer couldn't possibly know who person G is going to pick or if person B is tilted from last game.

Also, why would Riot care? If you lose, 5 other people are winning. Remember half the people that play (- remakes) get wins.

TS MediaOct 10, 201716 votes

Only that its been stated numerous times that the system is designed yo keep you at a 50% winrate. You are responsible for winning 20% of your games, 20% are your fault and 60% doesnt matter what you do, you will win or lose all depending on your team. With that in mind, that's a 40/60 split for games that depend on you. 50/50 chance you have the better player and if you can avoid the 20% loss and have 0% losses on you thats how smurfs end up having such high winrates. But for people belonging in those divisions, I'd say that's impossible. The saying, "I constantly get horrible teams" isn't wrong. Part of climbing is luck.

Ashen RiderOct 10, 20171 votes

Source?

TS MediaOct 10, 20172 votes

-shrugs- I've read it a few times from rioters though I don't recall which particular thread they were on. I'd have to do some digging to find out.

ShaolinToiletOct 11, 20174 votes

Everyone says that and I've never seen a source once

iamthegoatofwarOct 11, 20171 votes

He's not lying. I've seen the 50% thing stated by riot themselves at least twice over the years if not more.

TheSingularityOct 11, 20172 votes

There have been riot comments in the past stating that the system tries to force a 50% winrate to make balancing champions easier, as if you have a 90% winrate with a champ it will inflate the average (as others will achieve the same) and indicate a problem when there isn't one

FrockSaintsOct 11, 20173 votes

What's been said is that if you win, you will gain mmr, so on average, enemies will be harder to beat and your win ratio will drop as you approach your skill level. That's not a forced 50%, it's just something that happens naturally and that should happen.

However, we all know that's not all that's going on.

Maybe I'm wrong, but for some reason, it looks like there's mostly 4 types of matchmaking at any given time: win streak type, lose streak type, neutral type and seemingly random type.

The type you're on changes over time, but it has some inertia to it. Win streaks, it's honestly hard to lose. Lose streak, toxicity everywhere and either bot lane hyper feeds or every lane loses or something like that. Neutral type is win lose win lose win lose where most games are STILL stomps and you feel once again like you have little control. Only when it's seemingly random do you have control, unless you're good or bad enough to break the pattern, which is probably what riot is trying to do. Matching you with worse teammates to see if you can carry them, or matching you with good teammates to see if you're so bad you're still losing. I'd rather it be random.

TS MediaOct 11, 20172 votes

You're correct on that front. I didn't say the system is designed to make you lose, though you will at some point, just that it's designed to put you at a sub ~51% wr. Your mmr spikes matches you with harder enemies, but be advised your teammates WILL be below par of the other enemy teams.

Here's an example: You have 1600 mmr in gold 5. The average MMR in gold 5 is about 1200-1300 MMR (these are all estimates, don't quote me on these mmrs), what's going to happen is you get a team that looks like this:

You: 1600 MMR Team2: 1150 MMR Team3: 1100 MMR Team4: 1200 MMR Team5: 1220 MMR

And the enemy team gets a team like this:

Enemy1: 1300 MMR Enemy2: 1320 MMR Enemy3: 1260 MMR Enemy4: 1280 MMR Enemy5: 1150 MMR

As you can see, the odds are highly outside of your favor. The entire enemy team (on average) is better than your team. It's to make up for your MMR difference, which is highly unfair tbh. But, however, this is how people have come to conclude (not only opinions at this point. There is enough math to prove this outcome and enough games played) that the system is designed to keep you at a sub ~51% wr. To top it off, as I've said, Rioters (though it could be incorrect information still -- but even without the rioter posts, it's already been confirmed at this point) have already responded to this matter.

Therefore, you can make a chart like this:

Wins = MMR MMR = Higher Division Current Division =/= current MMR Win Streaks = Better opponents Better opponents =/= Better teammates Your MMR =/= reflect teammates MMR ; but does contribute to team overall mmr

So, the more you win the harder games get. And it's NOT just because you get better opponents.

Starcraft243verOct 11, 20171 votes

Well it's not like the system MAKES you lose game if you get a better winrate than 50%. It's just if you are above 50% winrate, you will play versus better players

it's just simple logic, i'm actually quite shocked you dont get that :

if you win more than half your games against people, it means that you are better than these people, so the system should make you face better players until you are at a stable 50% winrate, which means you are playing with and against same category of skill players, with slight variations.

It's not like the system decides "omg, this guy is at 70% winrate, i'm going to put 2 afks and one inter in his next 25 matches".

Sorry, It doesnt work like that, I climbed many accounts from bronze to gold and your little theory fall down when I see the winrate I can achieve by doing that (over 80% easily). And while doing that I never feld the system was holding me back, giving me better or worse teammates in my series.

I've had tough games in which I had over 90% kill participation and litterally did more damages alone than the sum of the damages of my whole team (even a few with 100% kill participation). I've had easy games stomping them in 15minuts. But the number of games that seemed unwinnable ? I can count them on my hand.

Winning your lane is great, but making every ally win lane is better. Let's say you play mid : stomp your opponent, kill him, rotate top, get the kill, tp bot, kill the botlane, take the tower. Here, you pretty much won the game alone.

ZexOct 11, 20171 votes

{quoted}

This bad teams in promos thing is bogus. The system has enough trouble making quick matches of 10 players without having to sit back and figure out how to screw you in your promos. Besides, all it takes is one person that is tilted or on a "new" champ, etc to lose a game. The computer couldn't possibly know who person G is going to pick or if person B is tilted from last game.

Also, why would Riot care? If you lose, 5 other people are winning. Remember half the people that play (- remakes) get wins.

Not sure if trolling or you're actually being serious.

Paladin 0f LifeOct 10, 20172 votes

I played rakan yesterday, trash adc of mine got caught out 3 times so i left bot all together ganked mid... got kill and tower, went top got kill and tower. Instead of doing the "right" thing and losing my lane further i went top. I used my macro knowledge to carry the game as a low dmg support, for lvl 30s(one lvl 28 who fed arse off) while other team was silvers. The difference is you and your mindset not matchmaking. Im on winning streak and was the only silver 5 in the game rest were silver 3 to 2ish. Had most dmg in game, took 4 towers, destroyed my laner on his main etc etc. You make the difference

SnakDatSmilesBakOct 10, 20174 votes

anecdote, you can't use this to say op is wrong

ProfirixOct 10, 20171 votes

Competitive games that match people up head-to-head are inherently going to create stress with often results in toxicity. That being said, there are some features (like punishing players for dodging a promo because of a trolling teammate) that increase the frustration.

Ariel the CruelOct 10, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ariel the Cruel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ENqFxcun,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2017-08-30T04:13:28.527+0000)

Not exactly.

The system will not let you advance unless you can prove you're able to play at a higher level. So it will statistically stack the odds against you slightly. Whether that's by giving you lower MMR team mates, or higher MMR enemies (affecting the team average). If you're on a winning streak, the system will try to force you back to 50% win rate. This also results in higher MMR enemies / lower MMR allies. Neither of these systems purposefully give you "bad" allies. They give you enemies that are statistically better than your allies.

If you're on a massive winning streak and in promos... RiP.

Also. When match making tries to make a balanced team, it will average everyone's MMR. That means pairing the best player in a group with the worst. This isn't unique to promos though; just some perspective. Being in promos means your at the highest MMR tier for that division. So all players will either be a higher division, or worse than you.

DISHONORABLE XDOct 10, 20171 votes

oh maybe i wouldn't be frustrated and mad if riot used to put fcking auto filled in my promos

SwiftKitten88Oct 11, 20171 votes

it has gotten a BIT worse since honor was released. but honestly.. it is still INSANELY better than it was before the honor rework.

General Esdeath Oct 11, 20171 votes

Pretty much. I even stated this, I have so few toxic people in my matches in gold 3. A few salty people but that's it. But when I get to promos? Holy shit. They tilt after their 7th loss last game. They get mad after 10 minutes. I had a guy say "gg ff at 15" during EVERY SINGLE MATCH in promos (Which to be fair was only 2 each because I failed promos once so it gave me a free win, but I just lost my 5th promos so that's still 10 people giving up).

Sir FuzziOct 11, 20171 votes

With so many people playing League, some are just casuals and don't really get the game in the same way that dedicated gamers do.

The sad fact is that sometimes, one team has more than another and that's usually all it takes in League's current "everything needs to die in under 4 seconds" meta.

ArisenAhriOct 11, 20171 votes

I just say emotes :)

NoblewindOct 11, 20171 votes

The #1 cause of toxicity in League of Legends is being able to see everyone's CS on the scoreboard. The game would greatly benefit without that IMO, in more ways than just affecting trolling too

RootloOct 11, 20171 votes

If Riot would acutally punish the behavior that incites toxicity it wouldnt be a problem.

True story time. You are playing a game and someone in all chat types "im afk" and then says "Ima just troll the rest of the game". Then they proceed to troll and feed all game and then the 1 person who types in all chat says "please report viktor for trolling" and then that person gets chat restricted but the guy who trolled is left free to harass another game.

There is a real issue there.

Riot is the only company that is so hellbent on punishing people who hurt other peoples feelings by saying "you suck" and they dont care about people ruining the game for others. No other game ive played has a fraction of the effort spend on dealing with toxicity and actually focuses on cheaters/griefers/etc.. stuff that makes the game not fun.

If Riot would not worry so much about rude behavior and focused on banning people that afk/script/bot/boost/troll/int/are flat out racist or telling people to killthemselfs/ or anything else that actually negatively impacts the game then Toxicity would decrease naturally. But no, they can spend all their efforts on punishing the guy for calling the 0/7 yasuo trash