for a juggernaut garen has really low stats

Frius·Dec 8, 2016·3 votes·885 views

such as 3 armor instead of 4 or close to 4 /lvl

84.25 hp /lvl an illaoi /darius only 100 /lvl hp...and many more

31 Comments

Blumpkin NationDec 8, 20163 votes

His passive lets him regain an insane amount of health per second mid-game and beyond. He doesn't need stat buffs-- especially since they just gave him an unnecessary 25% armor shred on his E lol.

He just needs another rework. A lot of his power is in his E and R, while his utility lies in his Passive/Q/W. He doesn't have tools like other Juggernauts because of the self-utility he has. Not to mention free-true damage on villains and an execute ult.

Critmaster GarenDec 8, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=Blumpkin Nation,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E043behf,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-12-08T23:06:10.489+0000)

His passive lets him regain an insane amount of health per second mid-game and beyond.

out of combat. while darius and illaoi have in combat sustain that scales with health. so whats your point?

my guess is, that his health scaling isnt as good because he has more upfront defense. but he actually could use a stat buff. if just to his lvl 1 base health.

and he doesnt need a full on rework either imo. they should look into working on his villain mechanic, improve it overall to better define his nieche as a champion. and rework his passive scaling, then allow him to access it in combat.

so hes not a sitting duck in between the enemy team when his spin is on cooldown.

AmetDeCryptDec 8, 20161 votes

he doesn't really ever stay in combat long enough past his qe(w)r one shot combo to need sustain, he just backs off and does it again in a minute or so if it only did 3k damage and didn't kill you.

Critmaster GarenDec 8, 20161 votes

{quoted}

he doesn't really ever stay in combat long enough past his qe(w)r one shot combo to need sustain, he just backs off and does it again in a minute or so if it only did 3k damage and didn't kill you.

id say the causality is wrong here. he needs to 1 combo his enemy, because hes incapable of staying in combat for very long, unless hes horrendously fed. in that case hes probably capable of 1 comboing his opponent anyways.

what garen wants is to run and dps the villain down. pressure him through an entire fight, so he can focus on nothing but trying to get away from him. he cant do that because he is literally 0 threat while his spin is on cooldown.

if the enemy adc or anyone hes going for really just hits summoner heal or gets a support shield and his spin doesnt get the enemy into kill range for the ult, hes usually fucked. because even with his w, hes just going to get shredded in the 5 seconds until his spin is back up. if he did manage to stay in melee range or not doesnt matter at that point.

i would happily give up some of his passive sustain at lvl 16, if i could activate the passive for the 5 seconds between spins, when i manage to stick in melee range, just to survive long enough to keep going.

Asayake 5150glowDec 9, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E043behf,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-08T23:58:15.724+0000)

id say the causality is wrong here. he needs to 1 combo his enemy, because hes incapable of staying in combat for very long, unless hes horrendously fed. in that case hes probably capable of 1 comboing his opponent anyways.

what garen wants is to run and dps the villain down. pressure him through an entire fight, so he can focus on nothing but trying to get away from him. he cant do that because he is literally 0 threat while his spin is on cooldown.

if the enemy adc or anyone hes going for really just hits summoner heal or gets a support shield and his spin doesnt get the enemy into kill range for the ult, hes usually fucked. because even with his w, hes just going to get shredded in the 5 seconds until his spin is back up. if he did manage to stay in melee range or not doesnt matter at that point.

i would happily give up some of his passive sustain at lvl 16, if i could activate the passive for the 5 seconds between spins, when i manage to stick in melee range, just to survive long enough to keep going.

But he has no need to 'threaten' the VIllain when he can straight out 100-0 them.

His auto's do plenty of damage against the villain.

Critmaster GarenDec 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

But he has no need to 'threaten' the VIllain when he can straight out 100-0 them.

His auto's do plenty of damage against the villain.

his autos dont do shit. anyone with a lifesteal item will just shred him while ignoring anything he can do with them.

its really one of his biggest issues that his kit is almost expected to work like a skirmisher who can dive in and out of fights, without giving him the mobility to support it.

instead of leaving him with a giantass window of nothing in melee range, when his spin is on cooldown, he needs something to support him to stay in a fight.

Asayake 5150glowDec 9, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E043behf,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-09T01:03:15.887+0000)

his autos dont do shit. anyone with a lifesteal item will just shred him while ignoring anything he can do with them.

They do some% true damage or something. Should be enough against mages.

Though I guess not ADC's.

Critmaster GarenDec 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

They do some% true damage or something. Should be enough against mages.

Though I guess not ADC's.

do you have any idea how little his auto attacks actually do? they are ok when youre fighting a mage, or anyone entirely without some form of in combat sustain. but when youre faced with another fighter or ad carry, they do literally nothing.

and those guys are usually the villain and supposed to be fightable by him.

Asayake 5150glowDec 9, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E043behf,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-09T01:07:23.729+0000)

1%

do you have any idea how little his auto attacks actually do? they are ok when youre fighting a mage, but when youre faced with another fighter or ad carry, they do literally nothing.

and those guys are usually the villain and supposed to be fightable by him.

Uh... he wrecks most fighters if they're the villain.

Critmaster GarenDec 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Uh... he wrecks most fighters if they're the villain.

in teamfights. nope.

villain or not, if that dude gets a shield from his support, his spin is absorbed and then he sits in melee range without anything to work with, and gets destroyed before the spin is off cooldown again.

Asayake 5150glowDec 9, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E043behf,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-09T01:10:24.670+0000)

in teamfights. nope.

villain or not, if that dude gets a shield from his support, his spin is absorbed and then he sits in melee range without anything to work with, and gets destroyed before the spin is off cooldown again.

That's because his E does 33% bonus damage if it's only hitting 1 target, I assume.

That's about 10% of their max health as true damage. Not bad, imo.

Also, he's more useful in teamfights to his team because he shreds armor with his E, while Darius just gets to ignore some for himself.

Critmaster GarenDec 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

That's because his E does 33% bonus damage if it's only hitting 1 target, I assume.

That's about 10% of their max health as true damage. Not bad, imo.

Also, he's more useful in teamfights to his team because he shreds armor with his E, while Darius just gets to ignore some for himself.

most beefy fighters wont be possible for him to kill off one spin rotation in teamfights anyways.

they usually have some form of sustain mechanic to mitigate his spin damage, or they get support shielded.

the true damage on his spin is really good in extended 1v1 duels, but the fact that garen has such gigantic windows of not doing anything after a spin, without something to help him live until he can spin again is one of his main issues imo.

riot expects him to retreat entirely out of combat and regenerate health after he got a spin off. which is almost never possible.

Asayake 5150glowDec 9, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E043behf,comment-id=000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-09T01:14:57.322+0000)

most beefy fighters wont be possible for him to kill off one spin rotation in teamfights anyways.

they usually have some form of sustain mechanic to mitigate his spin damage, or they get support shielded.

the true damage on his spin is really good in extended 1v1 duels, but the fact that garen has such gigantic windows of not doing anything after a spin, without something to help him live until he can spin again is one of his main issues imo.

riot expects him to retreat and regenerate health after he got a spin off. which is almost never possible.

...

He has a huge, amazing skill to help him live.

It's something you and I both wish we had more of. It's called... Courage.

Critmaster GarenDec 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

...

He has a huge, amazing skill to help him live.

It's something you and I both wish we had more of. It's called... Courage.

in reality, thats not enough. it looks like a lot, but in effect actual sustain mechanics like lifesteal, or inbuilt regeneration, heals and shields outperform his w in long fights.

darius being able to hit a couple good q's and regenerate 1/3 of his missing health every couple of seconds is worth more than garens w.

so is lifesteal in most cases. the duration or damage riduction would have to be ridiculous to keep up.

Asayake 5150glowDec 9, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E043behf,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-09T01:18:48.642+0000)

in reality, thats not enough. it looks like a lot, but in effect actual sustain mechanics like lifesteal, or inbuilt regeneration and shields outperform his w in long fights.

It only really needs to keep him alive long enough to get someone down to 33-40% health.

Or he can just Q in in the middle of a fight and ult a 33% health tank, and then proceed to help his team walk over the rest of the enemy team by their lack of frontline.

Critmaster GarenDec 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

It only really needs to keep him alive long enough to get someone down to 33-40% health.

yea, well. it usually doesnt.

like i said. 2v2 skirmishes and 1v1's, it works. but in teamfights its almost impossible to live through the combined damage of the enemy team more than 10 seconds.

Asayake 5150glowDec 9, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E043behf,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000002,timestamp=2016-12-09T01:22:04.314+0000)

yea, well. it usually doesnt.

like i said. 2v2 skirmishes and 1v1's, it works. but in teamfights its almost impossible to live through the combined damage of the enemy team more than 10 seconds.

No one is supposed to live through the combined damage of the enemy team more than 10 seconds.

You tanked the combined damage of the enemy team for 10 seconds. Congrats, you won the teamfight.

Critmaster GarenDec 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

No one is supposed to live through the combined damage of the enemy team more than 10 seconds.

You tanked the combined damage of the enemy team for 10 seconds. Congrats, you won the teamfight.

im not just talking full focus. but general aoe damage with an adc flinging a couple auto attacks at him.

juggernauts are actually supposed to be able to stay in the middle of the enemy team and wreak havoc once they got there. thats their entire deal. so in a sense, yes. theyre supposed to live through being focused once they managed to get in there.

darius or illaoi being in melee range of 5 opponents is supposed to be their optimal scenario.

and even garen cant avoid it when he wants to get on top of the villain.

Asayake 5150glowDec 9, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E043behf,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000004,timestamp=2016-12-09T01:28:13.160+0000)

im not just talking full focus. but general aoe damage with an adc flinging a couple auto attacks at him.

juggernauts are actually supposed to be able to stay in the middle of the enemy team once they got there. thats their entire deal. so in a sense, yes. theyre supposed to live through being focused once they managed to get in there.

darius or illaoi being in melee range of 5 opponents is supposed to be their optimal scenario.

and even garen cant avoid it when he wants to get on top of the villain.

Alright, I want you to count to 10. Out loud. In seconds.

Yeah.

Critmaster GarenDec 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Alright, I want you to count to 10. Out loud. In seconds.

Yeah.

of which only 5 seconds, he actually does anything. thats the entire problem.

at 40% cdr, he has 3 seconds of spin, then has to wait 5 seconds in melee range of multiple opponents until he can do something again. during those 5 seconds he has nothing but auto attacks of a champion who doesnt itemize into attack speed and has at best 20% crit chance from i.e.

this is usually when the adc, fighter or whoever hes facing just heals back up on him with lifesteal or some other form of sustain and he gets destroyed.

this is the entire issue with his teamfighting.

Asayake 5150glowDec 9, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E043behf,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000006,timestamp=2016-12-09T01:33:51.388+0000)

of which only 5 seconds, he actually does anything. thats the entire problem.

at 40% cdr, he has 3 seconds of spin, then has to wait 5 seconds in melee range of multiple opponents until he can do something again.

See the point?

It's somewhere behind you. Over your left shoulder.

Blumpkin NationDec 8, 20162 votes

Illinois and Darius need to HIT their abilities on CHAMPIONS to heal. So by staying away as Garen, you actually heal more than them. And since Spirit Visage is a must buy on him 80% of the time if there's a SINGLE Mage on the enemy team it really enhances the % mid-late game.

Garen can 100-0 you, get to 2% health, walk away from 6 seconds, and heal all of his health back and continue to push. Whereas, if you didn't get 100-0'd, you have to back.

There are trade offs for each champion. Garen's main strife is his ability to stick to mobile targets. Darius and Illinois have slows and bursty damage while being able to use their AA's between attacks most of the time. Garen has to rely on his tick damage from E, and Q, and then hopefully get them low enough to KS with his ult. That doesn't work on 50% of the champions in the game. Darius can weave AA's between his Q/W/R much easier, just like Illinois.

He just needs a rework. Too much of his damage comes from E/R.

MunchCrunchLunchDec 9, 20161 votes

Give garen a small dash on his Q. by small I mean really small sort of like Illaoi W. and garen is much better now.

i agree hes too weak even after this weird buff. I don't think he will get even to meh

Critmaster GarenDec 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Give garen a small dash on his Q. by small I mean really small sort of like Illaoi W. and garen is much better now.

i agree hes too weak even after this weird buff. I don't think he will get even to meh

i really dont see how that would make a difference.

FriusDec 8, 20161 votes

the free true dmg and execute is not any different than darius` which further scales and is always true dmg which resets on kills

Blumpkin NationDec 8, 20162 votes

Darius has to apply 4-5 bleed stacks to get the most effective use out of his ult. Garen just has to ult a 20-25% health target. 30% if they're the villain.

Though, I dislike the fact Darius gets infinite resets. He should really only get 1 or 2.

Asayake 5150glowDec 9, 20162 votes

{quoted}

the free true dmg and execute is not any different than darius` which further scales and is always true dmg which resets on kills

Except Darius's ult does stupid low damage at early levels without fully stacking his passive, which is pretty hard. A fully stacked Darius R is like a normal Garen R when you're 33% health.

And Garen gets true damage without having to burn his ult if he's against the VIllain.

Edge of DaybreakDec 9, 20162 votes

Something something presses W for a large chunk of % damage reduction. I'd hope he didn't have equal to greater tankiness to them while also having access to that.

Asayake 5150glowDec 9, 20161 votes

He gets an auto attack empower which has the debatably second strongest form of CC in the game (Silence) for a good duration and which can't be dodged.

That is all.