all while his items are nerfed and swiftness nerfed and grasp (the only good mastery nerfed and his base ms nerfed and his Q speed nerfe,his all counters buffed ,his items nerfed
one of my suggestions would be increase spin circle of radius from 165 to 200 ,cause his basic attack reaches longer than spin ,AA is 175 ,spin is 165 or so they say on tooltips
Very Hard Engage25 votesmathematically....
if you pull your arms to swing and spin at the same time... the hilt of the sword is below the center point in relation to your body is to the tip of the sword... giving you less effective range than the sword could offer if you hold it straight out.... but ya know...
w/e, "he could hold the sword all the way out" but then you have less power in your swing motion..... giving up your arm strength for length... also increasing air resistance.... and more torque needed to balance/hold the sword out at the extra distance... also equates to less power in the sword swing....
theres a lot of reasons, besides just from a balance stand point.
TLDR; the longer you hold the sword out the weaker it becomes....
Slythion7 votesthis is a game
Very Hard Engage22 voteswell in that case the reason is because riot says so
:D
Slythion5 votesIt's about balance, in which case this guy raises a pretty valid point
"Real life" logic/physics has almost never been applied to League, if you haven't noticed. We have space dragons, tree people, giant man-frogs, cat people, shape shifters, ghouls, etc
:p
Very Hard Engage3 votesok, more range, less damage, is that what you want?
the reasoning is because garens actually pretty fast, and if you go to auto a minion, and hes there, he starts to spin every time and then you have a 0% chance at escape while hes spinning.
at least with a shorter range you have a chance to be just out of the range, walk in a straight line, and he cant catch you, making it just a little bit harder for him to stick while spinning.
Slythion3 votesif a Garen does that, he'll be pushing the lane extremely hard
not to mention he'd have to follow you behind your minion wave to make it worthwhile, in which case you can trade with him back all you want because your minion aggro will help. Not to mention Garen isn't exactly doing great right now so a small buff to his laning phase wouldn't be the end of the world. He's recieved nothing but nerfs since the juggernaut meta and ever since 
his "sticking power" has been really crap
50000000000000002 votesMinion doesn't aggro if you do damage through a spell and not an autoattack. Garen's E is not an autoattack.
Slythion2 votesI see the confusion:
Either garen gets 2-3 procs of his E on you and backs off, inadvertently pushing the wave a lot or...
Garen follows you past minions, still pushing the wave (but at least he's making the pushing worthwhile by getting his full E on you) but then either has to stay and fight (therefor taking minion aggro) or tank your full return damage as he goes back.
Overall, it's really just not worthwhile to randomly E your lane opponent without going for a full trade or all-in. This small range buff wouldn't be very game breaking, it'd just make it easier for a Garen to zone his lane opponent which would be kinda helpful considering how he's been in a bad spot for awhile
UnboundCreator1 votesif a Garen does that, he'll be pushing the lane extremely hard
not to mention he'd have to follow you behind your minion wave to make it worthwhile, in which case you can trade with him back all you want because your minion aggro will help. Not to mention Garen isn't exactly doing great right now so a small buff to his laning phase wouldn't be the end of the world. He's recieved nothing but nerfs since the juggernaut meta and ever since
LMAO when garen was OP and meta that was literally my least favorite OP champ.. even more than fizz during S4 when he could one shot with his retarded q scaling
Slythion2 votesI mean, you can't keep a champion gutted because of some grudge from way back when he was actually op. We're talking about a really tiny buff here guys, not giving him a 500 base movement speed or anything
what you said doesn't really have to do with anything about what we're discussing
The Deckowner1 votesphysic doesn't apply in league
rtbf2256182411 votesWell he is holding the sword out all the way. It's a special technique. Darius asks "How does he do it?" when he fails. :P
OyddAWqJ5r9 votesQ speed and duration nerfed. Base MS nerfed. Swifties nerfed. Grasp nerfed. Deadmans nerfed heavily (which was the reason Garen got nerfed in the first place). DFG removed.
Rito plz fix Garen. Tried playing him the other day and was wondering when he became a sluggish sack of bricks.
GrReaper961 votesDFG removed
wait whta?
SSJTribe4 votesBefore his rework, Garen's ult did magic damage. There was an item, Deathfire Grasp, which had the following active: Deals 15% of target champion's maximum health in magic damage and applies the debuff, Doom. Doom amplifies all magic damage that champion takes by 20% for 4 seconds.
The item was used as an off build, known as DFGaren to make his ultimate hit for incredible damage.
PB4UAME1 votesThere was also Arch Mage Garen, where you'd go DFG, then some combination of Zhonyas, Void Staff, Abyssaal, Ryali's (makes your spin slow and ult if it doesn't kill them) Liandry's Torment (pen, and applies to your E and ult), top it off with a Lichbane, (sorc) boots and defensive/CDR items as needed.
TyrekGoldenspear1 votesit still does do magic damage. It just does true damage to the villain.
GrReaper961 votesOoh i know DFg but i never tried it on Garen. Sounds cool now too bad
Darkomantis1 votesDon't forget the health growth decrease, Silence duration nerf, and Tenacity removal.
underscores2224 votesAs someone who enjoys playing Garen, I think he's in a reasonable state overall. I do agree that the numbers are a little strange when you look at them, but 10 units is like 1/8 of a teemo, so it's really not that big of a deal.
The Governer1 votes10 units are 1/10 of Teemo lol. It's official.
underscores2221 votesIt was a rough guess
Darkomantis2 votesI think you're biased in saying Garen is in a reasonable state when you're in the lower elo brackets. Garen is a "pubstomper" in low elo since he punishes big mistakes, but once you become good in the Top role, Garen is an easy matchup all game even if you died to him. In high elos, picking Garen is basically choosing to lose the game since all his matchups are bad even against Riven(who actually counters him with a competent main). Garen's laning phase is weak, his mid-game is poor due to not being able to make plays or scale from the laning phase, and his late-game is hoping the enemy squishy isn't full build yet and doesn't have Flash with no support nearby.
underscores2221 votesI'm basing my assessment more on numerical data and not my personal skill. You're right - he doesn't see pro play, but that does not make him in a sorry state based on his abilities numbers alone. His playstyle would be another issue, but that is not what this post is about directly.
Darkomantis2 votesI'm basing my assessment more on numerical data and not my personal skill. You're right - he doesn't see pro play, but that does not make him in a sorry state based on his abilities numbers alone. His playstyle would be another issue, but that is not what this post is about directly.
No where in my post did I say that Garen doesn't see pro play, I simply referred to solo queue low elo and high elo. But you're right on being off-topic, and I apologize for it.
Weathered1 votesProbably because it is aoe
Kaioko1 votesMost melee ranges were increased from 125 to 175 in order to make it easier for juggernauts since they were not suppose to have any real mobility abilities. That does not mean their abilities get to be 175 range especially for something that's an AOE spin.
Drugoth1 votesIf you've ever watched figure skaters or dancers you'd notice that they tuck their arms in close to their bodies to increase the speed of their spin and reduce the amount of drag. Garen is probably just tucking in tight in order to spin faster which would theoretically reduce his effective range.
MetalGearTeemu1 votesthat was how he did it before his clunky art rework. Now he just looks like he's spinning semi-out of control.
and the reason is because after his last rework, meaning auto-follow would keep you out of range, so they buffed it to the range that auto-follow right clicked targets at (165)
Sightless661 votesSo, am I the only person in this thread who actually went into game and tested this out? His spin range isn't actually shorter than his autoattack range. It's slightly larger.
What's happening here is that abilities and autoattacks have their range calculated differently. Autoattacks have their range calculated from the edge of the character's model. Self-cast AoE abilities edge of the source effect. 165 range on that type of ability is actually more range than 175 range on an autoattacks. This is why the tooltips show a shorter range for his spin than for his autoattacks, even though actually testing the range shows that it is longer.
GigaPube1 votesif it was "calculated from the edge of the characters model" garen wouldnt damage anything directly on top of him, as he spins his giant sword in numerous circles
Sightless661 votesIt's just the way the tooltip displays the range. He can still hit things within himself. Abilities and autoattacks do not display range in the same way. This is well documented, and it's the explanation for why the tooltips show a shorter range for his spin when it actually has a longer range.
GigaPube1 votesapparently the radius is 150. but 150 to 165 is still acceptable, because, as with regular circles, the radius is only half the distance of the total diameter of the circle. the radius is from the centre of the circle to the edge. the centre of the circle (garen) to the edge of his sword can be 150 or 165, but the total range of his spin attack is 300 - 330, which is obviously less of a shocking number to all of you, because you saw the comparison of a pitiful melee range attack to garens exciting spinning blade and you freaked out calling for garen buffs and throwing in everything else you can think of to do with justifying how weak garen is in gold+ competitive play
Kingnewgameplus2 votesI reread this comment a couple times and all I got was "math". I am a dumbass.
k wìx1 votes**Balance. **
420 grams1 votesBecause he steps into his swing with a basic attack, but stands in the middle of his circle spinning
GoDz 12Ga1 votesspin is 300 range??
Frius1 votes165 is close to half of your belief ,reconsider the number
deadlychuck1 votesBecause by pulling in his arms, he changes the rate at which he rotates.
Faster Spin > Higher range
Frius1 votesbut.. he doesnt change sword ,still same sword
deadlychuck1 votesYes, but it's not a matter of the sword, when he swings an auto attack his arms are extended.
When he spins he pulls his arms in towards his body to increase the rate of rotation. Due to physics, by pulling your arms in, the amount of energy that was used to rotate them at a longer distance is the same as the amount they'd have when spinning closer the the axis of rotation, so by covering less distance to make a full rotation, but having equal energy (momentum in this case), they move faster.
It's called conservation of angular momentum. My physics major is paying off. #videogamephysics
deadlychuck1 votesOh, but to actually answer the question for why it is in game, it might have to do with hit boxes, and how they calculate the "range" of an ability vs the "range" of a champion's attack.
Idk if auto attacks range is determined "center to center" or "edge to edge", and how they calculate the range of his E, is likely larger than 150, as you said, because of the natural size of garen. Though, in that case, it would only need to reach the edge of the hitbox in order to hit a target, because spells are calculated "edge to edge".
Basically, if auto attacks are determined by "center to center" or "center to edge" the difference in "range" might actually result in the same effective range.
