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Context on Janna buff?

MealReadytoEat··3 votes·751 views

Okay, Janna is the highest win rate support right now, and the second highest played support. Moreover, she has no ADC's and only one support (sona) that counter her to any extent, every other match up bot lane gives her a better than 50% win rate. She's extremely unfun to play against, as she hard counters any attempt to fight/ engage. The lowering of her ult's AP ratio only matters because she's so damn safe Mejai's is good on her, all other AP item's aren't gold efficient for her. Janna really needs some changes to her generic effectiveness right now, some clear weakness to counterbalance her clear strengths in disengage. At least Vayne has bad match ups.

Buffing the effectiveness of charging her Q could be quite healthy if Riot lowered the effectiveness of her uncharged Q, as that instantaneous and quite effective peel is what makes her and her team so untouchable right now.

Janna REALLY needs some counterplay.

20 Comments

Aeolian Melodies3 votes

They JUST lowered the effectiveness of double tap Q (in PBE). If you read the patch notes on surrenderat20, fully charged gale is the same as live and instantly released gale has shorter range.

I really wish Riot stopped having such a hard on for fully charged Q when it's almost NEVER used (or usable) this way. Every time they touch her they nerf double tap Q and switch the power to fully charged Q like it's going to happen more than once in the game.

Btw, the only reason Janna is so effective atm is that hard engage supports are all the rage. When poke supports were the thing, Janna was nowhere to be seen because she struggles against lanes that constantly poke and never engage.

Sire Hippington1 votes

The sur @ 20 notes don't mention a range nerf(though it makes far more sense if they nerfed base range and kept the fully charged range)

Janna

Howling Gale (Q) now travels up to 35% further from 20%

Monsoon (R) AP ratio lowered to .4 AP from .6 AP

edit: saw your righ on a different post, still, the official notes don't give it away though

The main reason why janna never charges her Q is that she never has to. Insta Q is just to powerfull, no need to delay it.

Janna was the most succesfull support last worlds, and since then never dropped below ~53% overall winrate. Statistically, she's amongst the most powerfull champs in the game for over 1 year straight despite serveral small nerfs, she really deserves a bigger change.

Aeolian Melodies2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Pavoni,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BnhErAB9,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-08-22T19:23:38.603+0000)

The suu @ 20 notes don't mention a range nerf(though it males far more sense if they nerfed base range and kept the fully charged range)

The main reason why janna never charges her Q is that she never has to. Insta Q is just to powerfull, no need to delay it.

Janna was the most succesfull support last worlds, and since then never dropped below ~53% overall winrate. Statistically, she's amongst the most powerfull champs in the game for over 1 year straight despite serveral small nerfs, she really deserves a bigger change.

Meanwhile Thresh ever since his release.

I'll accept no major Janna nerfs as long as he is immune to significant nerfs.

She doesn't charge Q most of the time because taking time to charge an ability that people outrun is kinda self-defeating.

Sire Hippington1 votes

thresh is a bit anyoing as his skills all feel impact full, but he's more the jack og all trades for supports. He can peel a bit, he can catch people, he can lantern-save, he can disengage, he can engage, he can harras a bit in lane, but he isn't particular well at doing any off that. He hasn't the same all-in singletarget lockdown a Nauti brings, not the all-in burst a leona rocks, not the engage of an alli, not the disengage or poke of nami, no sustain, very low damage, probably even less than Janna if you figure in her shield-AD... He hovers below 50% winrate for a long time now, and thats not due to his high pickrate meaning many newbs play him. only ~11% of the threshplayers have below 15 games with him, and even thresh mains(125+ games) only reach a 51% winrate. Even first-time jannas reach above 51% winrate, experienced jannas get above 55%...

67chrome3 votes

Janna's had over a 50% win-rate since forever, usually close to the top 3 (if not in the top 3). She's also appeared at the world stage every year, garnering an ~80% win rate in season 4's world stage. She's been the top support in season 1. She's been a top support from then on.

She doesn't struggle in the face of any particular lane match-up. She's just always been an extremely solid champion.

Aeolian Melodies2 votes

{quoted}

Janna's had over a 50% win-rate since forever, usually close to the top 3 (if not in the top 3). She's also appeared at the world stage every year, garnering an ~80% win rate in season 4's world stage. She's been the top support in season 1. She's been a top support from then on.

She doesn't struggle in the face of any particular lane match-up. She's just always been an extremely solid champion.

The thing is, Janna doesn't really win her lane - but she's awesome at not losing it. And she has very strong team fighting presence. She is strong and impactful, yet she deals close to negative damage. She has great rewards for skillfull play. Imo more supports should be tuned like her - she's a specialist that's good in her niche. She has a clear identity and a neat concept.

Sire Hippington1 votes

the problem is that her niche covers to much ground. ultimate peel, strong dmage steroid for her carry(her damage stats look meager, but the free BF+ for her carry isn't factored in here), perfect disengage, good catch-potential, rather save warding, great teamwide mapmobillity, especially with item 1327 , perfect anti assasin/fighter cockblock, incredible save laneing, can shield towers, longranged waveclear(isn't enough on its own, but if your adc/mid just lacks a bit damage to insta clear, it'S pretty neat to have that Q)

HEr niche will happen in every game, beeing good in her nich means beeing good total, as you always want map mobillity, you always want your adc to be save, you always want your support to ward without getting catched, you always want superior peel for you carry, and you always want a reliable way to disengage any fight that you don't want to take....

MealReadytoEat2 votes

Well said

Aeolian Melodies1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Pavoni,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BnhErAB9,comment-id=0000000100000000,timestamp=2015-08-22T20:21:09.662+0000)

the problem is that her niche covers to much ground. ultimate peel, strong dmage steroid for her carry(her damage stats look meager, but the free BF+ for her carry isn't factored in here), perfect disengage, good catch-potential, rather save warding, great teamwide mapmobillity, especially with item 1327 , perfect anti assasin/fighter cockblock, incredible save laneing, can shield towers, longranged waveclear(isn't enough on its own, but if your adc/mid just lacks a bit damage to insta clear, it'S pretty neat to have that Q)

HEr niche will happen in every game, beeing good in her nich means beeing good total, as you always want map mobillity, you always want your adc to be save, you always want your support to ward without getting catched, you always want superior peel for you carry, and you always want a reliable way to disengage any fight that you don't want to take....

Her niche is to buff the hell out an ally and make it very hard to engage on said target. Her "catching potential" is a joke, as is her offensive cc.

dannykun1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Aeolian Melodies,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BnhErAB9,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-08-22T18:49:08.523+0000)

They JUST lowered the effectiveness of double tap Q (in PBE). If you read the patch notes on surrenderat20, fully charged gale is the same as live and instantly released gale has shorter range.

I really wish Riot stopped having such a hard on for fully charged Q when it's almost NEVER used (or usable) this way. Every time they touch her they nerf double tap Q and switch the power to fully charged Q like it's going to happen more than once in the game.

Btw, the only reason Janna is so effective atm is that hard engage supports are all the rage. When poke supports were the thing, Janna was nowhere to be seen because she struggles against lanes that constantly poke and never engage.

I missed this post, but you have this spot on!

WalkingInACircle2 votes

Blip!

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/OMbFYE07-question-about-janna-pbe-q-change

MealReadytoEat2 votes

Ahhh cool. I checked that on PBE when they first did that, and it wasn't shorter, I'll need to check it again. They're doing exactly what I hoped they meant to, that's good.

RespectPlus1 votes

"No ADC counters Janna" Draven Draven

Sire Hippington1 votes

janna got a 56% winrate vs draven, it's really easy to screw him, just Q to where his Axe lands(or even better between him and that spot) and he will fail the catch, looseing potential passive stacks and tradeing potential. she's also really good at denying all-ins, so even if draven can dominate the lane, he won't be able to get a kill to cash in the passive money.

dannykun1 votes

I feel like you've completely missed Janna's weakpoint. She has amazing disengage, but very poor engages. Which leaves her kit vulnerable to kits that poke you down rather than all in for damage. Karma, sona, and lulu are all very good counters to janna, and not just in the laning phase. Using karma's empowered q can do a heafty sum of damage and when aimed correctly (read: aimed from the sides where you can aggressively poke the back line) will cause janna to back off and win you the fight. Skirmishers really push her back because she can't deal with champs that deal some damage at very short intervals.

"but her ult heals" you may say, and you're right, but poke champs crush that because healing someone once to full isn't going to stop the onslaught of poke from getting her and the back line down to negligable health again. She's top tier in the current meta because thresh leona and naut are heavily picked supports and her disengage kit works so well at shutting down engage champs. If you think she's great, play karma/sona against her and watch them cry at tower while you throw q's at them.

Aeolian Melodies1 votes

{quoted}

I feel like you've completely missed Janna's weakpoint. She has amazing disengage, but very poor engages. Which leaves her kit vulnerable to kits that poke you down rather than all in for damage. Karma, sona, and lulu are all very good counters to janna, and not just in the laning phase. Using karma's empowered q can do a heafty sum of damage and when aimed correctly (read: aimed from the sides where you can aggressively poke the back line) will cause janna to back off and win you the fight. Skirmishers really push her back because she can't deal with champs that deal some damage at very short intervals.

"but her ult heals" you may say, and you're right, but poke champs crush that because healing someone once to full isn't going to stop the onslaught of poke from getting her and the back line down to negligable health again. She's top tier in the current meta because thresh leona and naut are heavily picked supports and her disengage kit works so well at shutting down engage champs. If you think she's great, play karma/sona against her and watch them cry at tower while you throw q's at them.

this. you wanna nerf Janna without gutting her effectiveness at what she does? make poke supports (Sona Karma Zyra Lulu as support) worth picking again, and suddenly you can pick Janna vs all ins, and you can pick poke vs Janna.

dannykun1 votes

Honestly the only way to do this is to fix that stupid gold item for poke champs, and remove the freaking healing from the relic shield. Riot fucked up the support triangle when they made the gold generating items. the triangle is supposed to be poke beats engage, engage beats sustain, and sustain beats poke. janna was removed from this because her kit literally does one thing, disengage so she was a "sustain" champ that fucked up engages instead of poke champs (nami has this kind of kit as well so she's weak to the same things). But the complete indirect nerf by giving engage champs the ability to sustain against poke really fucked up the triangle because now engage beats both sustain AND poke. they should either make it so relic shield only gives gold and passive health regen, or make it so it gives a shield so that when they engage they can protect themselves from damage, but poke champs will still give them a bad day in the end.

Aeolian Melodies1 votes

{quoted}

Honestly the only way to do this is to fix that stupid gold item for poke champs, and remove the freaking healing from the relic shield. Riot fucked up the support triangle when they made the gold generating items. the triangle is supposed to be poke beats engage, engage beats sustain, and sustain beats poke. janna was removed from this because her kit literally does one thing, disengage so she was a "sustain" champ that fucked up engages instead of poke champs (nami has this kind of kit as well so she's weak to the same things). But the complete indirect nerf by giving engage champs the ability to sustain against poke really fucked up the triangle because now engage beats both sustain AND poke. they should either make it so relic shield only gives gold and passive health regen, or make it so it gives a shield so that when they engage they can protect themselves from damage, but poke champs will still give them a bad day in the end.

imo item 3302 and its upgrades should only heal the person wearing it (because a melee support is taking risks by last hitting a creep), but not the ally. Gve that to Leona and you remove the counterplay of safely poking her ADC because now you have to poke through lifesteal, pots AND procs while not getting caught by Leona. Like, compensate by faster stacks if you want, I don't care, but giving sustain to champions who were never meant to have it is ridiculous.

dannykun1 votes

I will say that getting the gold is the biggest issue anyway, the minor amount of health in it's first form (75 health? seriously doran's shield gives better stats, and that's supposed to be the worst of the dorans items. -.-) isn't worth it, but that heal is MASSIVE every minute the ADC and the support that took it get about 80 health for what is nearly free, on top of everything else they took to survive (health regen in runes and masteries as well as their usually pretty high base regen). I feel the item should probably sport a little more health, as tanky supports usually have ways of protecting that health, and instead have something more like either passive gold gen, or maybe have something more like the Coin passive where dying minions give a little gold and health. Honestly that passive would be so much better on the relic shield, though I totally get that the execute was meant to help clear the field for a good clean engage.

alfavhunter1 votes

When she casts Q she faces the direction it will go during the cast, maybe the could make the tornado lean where it's going to go, becoming more obvious r as it charges

But really Janna is fine without the PBE change, poke supports FK her up, sustain supports sustain better than her with actual heals

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