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@RIOT: a much better way to stop level 1 Lane taking jungle camp

ValyrianBlade··5 votes·2,968 views

Delaying the spawn time on your jungle camps hurts junglers FAR too much. I'm sorry, but some junglers really want a small leash at least. The ability to save an extra health pot before backing for your upgraded smite can make a huge difference in the rest of your first clear and hence the game. High elo laners taking jungle camps is not a good reason to not only remove leashes but also put junglers further behind early - you're removing jungling diversity!

Here are 2 much better ways to COMPLETELY AND GUARANTEED remove level 1 lanes poaching a jungle camp while not hurting junglers at all:

  1. Any jungle camp cleared while the champion clearing it is level 1 (possibly or 2) and the Camp level is below X (probably 3) does not grant xp / grants greatly reduced xp unless the clearer has machete (or smite, if you want to allow non machete starts).

This idea prevents laners from killing the Camp for an xp lead because they won't get xp it doesn't hurt junglers because they have smite/machete it doesn't prevent a team that's behind from farming the jungle because you won't fall behind before level 3 it doesn't prevent a dc'd player from using the jungle to catch up when they connect because the Camp levels will be 3+ if the difficulty lies in coding it, just put a check for level 1 when doing your catch up xp check, and attach the xp to machete if the clearer is level 1.

  1. The first camp any champion clears each game gives no xp. The first time smite is used gives full xp for the Camp it is used on (multiple smites can be used on the same camp to prevent incredibly hard invades from completely destroying a jungler at level 1). Laners won't clear a camp at level 1 because they'll get 0xp and can't afford being behind so early. Junglers are actually buffed, as they hit 2 as soon as they smite the Camp rather than on clear, and hence have an easier first camp (you could grant the xp from smite on clear if you really don't like this). A disconnected player can still farm the jungle to catch up (perhaps you can make this only apply if the jungle camp is level 1) A team that's behind can still use the jungle to catch up.

There we go. 2 ideas that don't hurt the already hurting junglers while simultaneously guaranteeing no ability for laners to take a camp at level 1, while still leaving the jungle as a farming option when behind.

I'm sure there are other mechanics using smite/machete to determine who receives xp from camps at level 1, feel free to tweak to meet your goals.

16 Comments

AnomalousChimera2 votes

As usual, I completely agree with ValyrianBlade. Voted this up.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

haha, decided to take a look at your post history to see where else you agree with me :P Only noticed a couple, but realized I agree with almost everything you post as well.

Go figure... :)

SmokingPuffin2 votes

I think it's a better idea to rebalance jungling with the idea that leashing won't be there. Feels bad for some junglers to be reliant on getting a leash, both in solo queue and in competitive play.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

I agree with this to be honest - but the thing is a jungler will always benefit from a leash unless riot changes experience and/or gold gain to be proportional to amount of damage dealt rather than based solely on the last hit - which we all know won't happen.

Otherwise a leash will always result in a faster and healthier start for the jungler, who can then snowball that small advantage in to a healthier/earlier gank wherever it's needed most, rather than a specific Lane having an advantage by getting to Lane earlier.

SmokingPuffin1 votes

the thing is a jungler will always benefit from a leash unless riot changes experience and/or gold gain to be proportional to amount of damage dealt rather than based solely on the last hit

Well, it's easy to falsify this thesis. You just change spawn timers to 2:25. Then nobody leashes because the cost is catastrophic. The question there is whether the cure is worth; obviously this causes junglers to do weird things in the early game.

Otherwise a leash will always result in a faster and healthier start for the jungler, who can then snowball that small advantage in to a healthier/earlier gank wherever it's needed most, rather than a specific Lane having an advantage by getting to Lane earlier.

There have been many competitive metas where leashing wasn't a thing. We just need early lane control to be more valuable than increased jungler early game health. The main awkwardness here is that Riot wants to diminish the impact of an earlier level 2, which runs counter to this goal.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

If you push the spawn timer back to 2:25, the jungler joins the nearest Lane to speed clear the first wave then the laner goes with him for a short leash when the jungle spawns after the first wave.

Regardless though, what I said is that the jungler benefits :p of course it's possible (/likely) that the laner suffers from giving a leash, and possible that the suffering is larger than the benefit of the leash.

Riot has also reduced the impact of level 2 buy changing how levels granted increased stats. Although I'd argue that it's having the extra ability that gives the biggest edge in most cases.

In competitive play, I'd imagine leashing doesn't need to be as popular because players ward better, have better map awareness, etc... and thus early jungle ganks aren't as likely to be successful. How often do you see a pre-6 kill in competitive play? How many of those are from level 1 invades versus from early ganks? So getting your jungler a small head start isn't worth as much there as it is in solo queue when junglers regularly have successful ganks at 3 or 4.

SmokingPuffin2 votes

Regardless though, what I said is that the jungler benefits :p of course it's possible (/likely) that the laner suffers from giving a leash, and possible that the suffering is larger than the benefit of the leash.

Right. If we want to rebalance the jungle for no-leash as the desired standard, we just need to ensure laner suffering is >= jungler benefit for leashing.

Besides the spawn time adjustments, another thing we can do is push desire to base after 3 camps by increasing the gold benefit of the upgraded items relative to machete. Almost every jungler can clear to 3 camps without a leash.

Riot has also reduced the impact of level 2 buy changing how levels granted increased stats. Although I'd argue that it's having the extra ability that gives the biggest edge in most cases.

Certainly competitive teams are still trying hard for early level 2, even with the new formula for stat increase.

In competitive play, I'd imagine leashing doesn't need to be as popular because players ward better, have better map awareness, etc... and thus early jungle ganks aren't as likely to be successful. How often do you see a pre-6 kill in competitive play? How many of those are from level 1 invades versus from early ganks? So getting your jungler a small head start isn't worth as much there as it is in solo queue when junglers regularly have successful ganks at 3 or 4.

It's hard for me to say. It's been a long time since I played in an average elo sort of game. Your rationale here sounds plausible for that environment.

In competitive play, right now junglers generally aren't getting a leash because the duo lane has better things to do. If you leash and the opposing duo takes a camp, you are losing bot lane reliably and that's a bigger deal than getting your jungler an extra camp.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

Yes, all true :)

maikokk1 votes

change nothing. jungle cheese rules

ValyrianBlade1 votes

Haha, honestly I agree I don't see anything wrong with a laner taking a camp at level 1. Riot seems intent on stopping it though, so I just think the above would be a much better way to do it.

MPendragon1 votes

I think it's totally legitimate for laners to take a jungle camp if they actually have the capability of doing so, through exploits or whatever. It will slow them down to the lane, granting the enemy team free reign over the first creep wave.

So it is balanced.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

Yes I agree - but the thread isn't saying whether or not laners should take a camp - it's saying that given riot is intent on stopping laners from taking a camp at level 1 (which they clearly are, see the respawn timer delay and Riot posts everywhere), This would be a better way to do it.

I find it sad that both of my downvotes come from people wanting to still clear camps at 1 when the whole thread assumes riot doesn't want that and suggests a way to do it easier and without hurting junglers.

Good luck to me ever getting riot's attention...

MPendragon1 votes

The comparison...

In the DotA game, the jungle doesn't spawn until the lane minions 'supposedly' reach their front line. (While in DotA you can slow the progress tremendously of your lane minions from reaching the front line, so your enemy lane minions are alrready at your tower.) Regardless...

The jungle camps doesn't spawn until that 30 second mark, where the creeps are supposed to be at the fighting zone. In league the jungle spawns at 1:55, and the creeps are released at 1:30. You can leash a camp for your jungler while potentially not missing a cs in the lane exchange, although more often than not you will miss one cs.

If your lane decides to wait until the jungle camp spawns, and brawl with it. It is hindering your lane because you're taking damage, and you're taking a lot of damage. It takes a long time to clear the camp without smite, and your enemies can likely clear an entire creep wave with that time, levelling the experience difference, the team who fought the lane minions have a clear gold advantage, a clear health advantage, and may or may not be fighting with their creep wave at the enemy tower starting to shave some HP of it as well.

It is not fair to assume that player's believe it's an exploit, as it isn't the meta. It doesn't really matter if it isn't the meta, it's allowed to happen, and people will abuse it. With that being said, Riot can say it's unfair, and doesn't fit the meta, because well. they develop the game.

It's like saying I can' drop the health of the monsters in the jungle for my Nasus top to Q farm them? Why can't I?

ValyrianBlade1 votes

Well, since you haven't seen it (at least not done properly), here's an example of how it works: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-nQZbYtUw0&list=UUQJWAA_780DUpoc_PJjnj4Q

Basically if you're top lane: Clear a camp, get level 2, recall, maybe buy something with the little extra gold, teleport to lane. You get there at level 2, the enemy laner isn't 2 yet. Proceed to bully the enemy laner until they reach the level difference. It's predominantly done with gromp/krugs, but as shown here when Shaco started red Krugs, Maokai decided to start Raptors to get the same advantage (and since Shaco can't clear Raptors very effectively in his first few camps he doesn't miss out on anything).

If you're bot lane: Support tanks the camp while adc takes it freely. Adc runs to lane at level 2 and full health, support B's. Level 2 adc can survive against level 1 adc and support with little trouble, also gets solo xp in lane and doesn't miss much cs at all, support eventually gets to lane. You basically end up with a level 3 adc and level 1 support against a level 2 opposing lane - except the level 1 support is going to start getting comeback xp and you want the adc to have a lead anyways.

In both cases it does give the camp-taking side the advantage (bigger advantage for top though since they have teleport, although some supports will take teleport to give bot a bigger advantage too).

As to the point of this thread, which you've completely missed again btw, Riot has said just about everywhere on these forums that they want to prevent laners from taking camps at level 1. They have also shown that they intend to back these statements up by repeatedly delaying the spawn timers, from 1:40 to 1:45 to 1:55 and now on the PBE to 2:00. The point of this thread is that delaying jungle spawn timers firstly doesn't necessarily remove this strategy (it just makes it less attractive), it also unfairly penalizes junglers who get smaller and smaller leashes (or no leash at all) and who have to start their clears later and later (thus putting them at an even larger xp disadvantage than they're already at).

MPendragon2 votes

{quoted}

Well, since you haven't seen it (at least not done properly), here's an example of how it works: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-nQZbYtUw0&list=UUQJWAA_780DUpoc_PJjnj4Q

Basically if you're top lane: Clear a camp, get level 2, recall, maybe buy something with the little extra gold, teleport to lane. You get there at level 2, the enemy laner isn't 2 yet. Proceed to bully the enemy laner until they reach the level difference. It's predominantly done with gromp/krugs, but as shown here when Shaco started red Krugs, Maokai decided to start Raptors to get the same advantage (and since Shaco can't clear Raptors very effectively in his first few camps he doesn't miss out on anything).

If you're bot lane: Support tanks the camp while adc takes it freely. Adc runs to lane at level 2 and full health, support B's. Level 2 adc can survive against level 1 adc and support with little trouble, also gets solo xp in lane and doesn't miss much cs at all, support eventually gets to lane. You basically end up with a level 3 adc and level 1 support against a level 2 opposing lane - except the level 1 support is going to start getting comeback xp and you want the adc to have a lead anyways.

In both cases it does give the camp-taking side the advantage (bigger advantage for top though since they have teleport, although some supports will take teleport to give bot a bigger advantage too).

As to the point of this thread, which you've completely missed again btw, Riot has said just about everywhere on these forums that they want to prevent laners from taking camps at level 1. They have also shown that they intend to back these statements up by repeatedly delaying the spawn timers, from 1:40 to 1:45 to 1:55 and now on the PBE to 2:00. The point of this thread is that delaying jungle spawn timers firstly doesn't necessarily remove this strategy (it just makes it less attractive), it also unfairly penalizes junglers who get smaller and smaller leashes (or no leash at all) and who have to start their clears later and later (thus putting them at an even larger xp disadvantage than they're already at).

I completely understand the advantage that it gives to someone. The thing is, anybody can technically do it. It is currently a part of the game, and if it begins to be a part of the meta, then so be it.

In no way, am I disagreeing with you, you have a valid point. Just my own opinion.

Frikgeek1 votes

Well, not really. Try taking gromp lvl 1 as Lissandra, you might actually get executed. Being able to solo a camp lvl 1 quickly and then TP back to lane is giving some toplaners a big advantage, like a doran's + 5 hp pots+ 1 manapot start. A doran's is the best item for all-ins, and you get more sustain than someone starting flask. Sure, you won't be able to TP for the first 3 minutes, but with the amount of sustain you have you won't even need it.

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