Now instead of nerfing Brand and Swain directly while also most likely going to nerf the masteries soon too, can you hit the real problem (the mastery)?
Don't understand why you would take two vastly different approaches on a similar problem
RiotMeddler37 votesDon't understand why you would take two vastly different approaches on a similar problem
In short, because we don't believe they're exactly the same situation, hence the nerfs to both DFT with DoTs and Brand, Swain, Anivia. DFT being too strong with DoT/sustained damage effects doesn't mean some champions aren't also out of line.
FalconPawwwwnch38 votesAh okay
So then you have reason to believe Brand and Swain are out of line disregarding the masteries?
Out of curiosity I have to ask what determines to Riot if a champion is overloaded or if its an external factor in a case like this (such as Jax with rageblade, Yasuo with crit changes, Mundo with new defense tree, etc).
RiotMeddler38 votesYes, we think they're too strong and have got to the point where, even with mastery changes, we need to trim some power from them.
For champions versus masteries/items/whatever we start with an assessment of how the other element's performing overall. Rageblade for example's definitely too strong on Jax, but it's also just too strong across the board compared to other items. Similarly Warlord's Bloodlust was too strong in general compared to where T3 keystone masteries should be (though it's also possible Yasuo might be too strong as well, still watching that).
LankPants44 votesYes, we think they're too strong and have got to the point where, even with mastery changes, we need to trim some power from them.
I don't understand how you can claim this when both champs were almost entirely unseen before you made the changes, hell Swain still is borderline unseen now.
CatSith13 votesJust because you don't see him doesn't make him weak. It means hes unpopular.
Lowel1 votesHaving a high winrate doesn't mean he's strong either. He's unpopular and the people playing are main who know how to play him properly on different matchup.
DrCyanide49 votesUnseen doesn't mean they're weak, it just means more people play other champions for other reasons.
Case and point: Twitch was rarely played until his visual update, at which point he saw all kinds of play. Seeing all that play, a lot of people came to the conclusion that he was too strong, and he got some nerfs. Notice that the balance of the champion didn't change between being popular and being unpopular, nor the meta, nor the items if I recall correctly. I suspect Riot has been trying to keep an eye on unpopular champions to see if they're too strong regardless of their popularity, with Swain being just one of them.
Photos of Ghosts7 votesHell, Garen is still being banned just because he saw play all of asudden.
HaugheyPuck995 votesI really don't think that's the only reason. IMO Garen is pretty OP right now for a number of reasons.
For example: the other day I had a full tank Garen ult me for 1.5K true damage when I was the Villain. That's more damage then a full AP Cho'Gath ult.
DeathToEcchi1 votesWould rather see a Garen ban than a Darius ban.
MetalGearTeemu6 votesAll Garens sticking tools and his silence were nerfed for his rework.
his early damage was nerfed.
All for an unreliable mechanic that often swaps mid teamfight and cant even be counted on to stay on the same target for the duration.
meanwhile Darius spent an entire worlds at the first pick slot and invalidates nearly any melee top laner he faces, Garen included.
meanwhile Garen was not picked at all, because good players understand that Garen is even worse late game then he was before because you will never reach your target. He offers even less control then the meager melee range silence with an animation so long that even using flash you could use mobility ON REACTION to the Q's activation.
there was a reason that challenger tier players made videos asking riot NOT to release Darius with this new kit.
But hey, Garen ulted my tank once when I was the villain at 1% health and overkilled me for like 2k true damage. NURF. [slayer-jinx-wink]
Flawless Fetus1 voteseh. his kits tills were nerfed, i guess. but new cleaver is silly. Any phys dmg giving the msg boost means garen is faster than he ever was.
Stephenizgod3 votesThe thing is Garen's laning phase was nerfed pretty hard for the Villain mechanic, it was then nerfed AGAIN by removing the ability to make your lane opponent the Villain when they murder you. The Villain mechanic is only an issue if you are the Villain. Most people complain about him even when they are not the Villain, they don't realize he use to be so much stronger before the rework. So like Photos of Ghosts stated its only after he started seeing play did people notice how strong he is, they just wrongly attribute it to the Villain mechanic. The Juggernaut Patch took two of my mains from me, Garen and Morde, so i still don't like the changes.
maikokk3 votesgaren will always be banned when he is picked reliably unless he loses his silence.
Stephenizgod1 votesWhy wasnt he banned before? He always had the silence, its only now that he has been shoved into the spot light that people suddenly start having issues with him...
maikokk2 voteshe wasnt a good ban because he wasnt picked often. pick rate has as much to do with ban efficiency as the perceived level of power.
ExecutorDill2 votesGaren and Morde... Sigh your mains say a lot about you ya know and play big beefy champions that van one shot ppl says a lot for you level of skill at league.
Hey im here complain about riot nerfing my beginner champ cause i like his strong simple-minded playstyle and I do not want to leave the beginner phase.
Stephenizgod5 votesYour lack of knowledge about the game really says a lot for your level of skill at league...
Garen, pre-rework, didn't have the Villain mechanic and was considered trash in Ranked for his lack of teamfight potential. It actually took quite a bit of skill to play him as the easiest and strongest counter to him was kiting, something everyone should be able to do. Despite this and my teammates lack of faith in me, like i mentioned before he was considered trash, i almost always ended up carrying every game.
Morde couldn't 1 shot anything, not since DFG was removed, also considered trash although thats because no knew how to use him. He was very strong but definitely not 1 shot and definitely not tanky. Another champion who required some amount of skill to be effective as he was easily kited and poked without being able to trade back. He was also the only champion that used health as a resource that didn't have some way of gaining it back.
When a champion is simple, so is the solution to dealing with them. So there is a required amount of skill to successfully use said champion against higher skilled opponents.
So just to reiterate, before the reworks, those were 2 of my mains along with Malzahar and Nami. After the rework they were both perma-banned or first pick, so i never got to play them which is why i was upset, not because they were nerfed... which doesn't make sense at all, Morde was op for a while and Garen was definitely stronger overall... So thank you for insulting me for no reason, acting as if you know what you are talking about when you clearly don't.
Also people who bring skill into an argument that has nothing to do with skill are normally either Bronze or Unranked... Shall we find out if thats true or not?
ExecutorDill1 votesMy lack of knowledge of the game? No... My lack of knowledge of Garen's patch history and ban rate? Yes, I don't keep track of his changes because unlike you he is not a highly favoured champion of mine. As for ban rate I wouldn't waste a ban slot putting that oaf their cause I can shut him down in lane easily every time and the only thing he could do was hope to use his villain mechanic against me (which can't iccur in lane anymore thanks to rito) I'd rather nerf 
he is far more oppressive.
Garen can take a lof of damage, garen can deal deal a lot of damage... Comes at a price don't you think?
Garen has 3 self casting basic abilities a point and click ult and a passive that benefits him for doing now (literally). To make it all the more easier for beginners to get a grasp of the game.
Also don't talk to me about being kited, my main is a tank who is much slower than Garen and I do reasonably well. If you want sticking potential build Frozen Mallet. I can easily pick up Garen and rekt people in rank. Infact, I remember stopping a Gnar with him top lane in rank and the onlything gnar could do was rely on jungler. Garen does take positioning and timing to make the most out of his straight foward playstyle but so does complex champs (its a general skill requirement) it all comes down to do i have enough damage to all in or no?
Garen can't do anything for his team but delete the major threat on the other team (provided he can get to them). Which is the equivalent to darius but he has more teamfight damage (multiple ults), a slow and a multi-target pull.
Garen is just Garen. The only thing is his beginner level counterparts 
have got buffed and seeing more competitive play than him.
Stephenizgod1 votesYou really don't understand Garen at all... Plus all this talk of 1 shotting but here you are stating how bad Garen is, THEN you state how strong he is because that 1 gnar you beat that 1 time... Main tank? Please tell me you are not talking about Shen, the one with the ranged point-click damage ability and the gap closer that is also an AoE taunt... I have only lost lane as Shen once when the Jungler had to camp me, Shen is incredibly oppressive when used correctly and kiting him is not possible once he taunts you, unlike Garen and Morde who have no hard CC, so to compare the effect of kiting between them is ridiculous.
ExecutorDill1 votesEven though shen has an easier time catching his target, he can't deal the damage Garen and Morde deals. If you lose a duel against a shen it's cause he can take more of a beating than you can while putting out reasonable amounts of damage from his items not cause he has lots of damage. You see success on this post rework Garen so forgive me if I am missing you the point but I see nothing wrong with him.
Stephenizgod1 votesI agree that Shen's damage is lower than Garen's or Morde's but it is not anything to ignore. Whenever I am Shen I almost always do the second most damage or at the very least third most. He has very consistent damage that adds up over time and is capable of wearing down almost any opponent, plus it goes beyond Tank. He also has a lot of sustain specially with that one mastery that heals you for % of your HP when you attack an enemy champ.
I don't get your point though, I say Garen is not op and never was its only because he sees play that people see he is strong and just think he is op because they don't know how to deal with him. You tell me he is op and im a Wood tier scrub who only plays no skill champs that can 1 shot cuz i have no skill. So what are you trying to say? Is Garen op or is there nothing wrong with him?
ExecutorDill1 votesSo you are upset that ppl think he is op because he seeing play? Dude... I could careless what haters think if I am playing the champ I love and am doing well with him.
The reason I flamed you at all isn't because I hate Garen or think your a scrub :D I was just feeling a little salty that's all :/ But More in the right hand can be a problem tho. I understand the nerfs to Garen's Q and making him slower while hitting multiple targets with E could upset you (It's riots way of clarifying a role he's always been in) As for Morde I have never ever played him so maybe you can explain why you felt they "took him" from you.
Also, I might be in the same position you are. Shen's rework is underway as we speak and is hitting live sometime next year. Excluding the juggernaut and marksman changes I've always enjoyed riot's reworks 100%. Shen is the only champion I love that I think needs a rework nbut I am fearful to what they might do with him :/
YumaS2Astral2 votesUnseen doesn't mean they're weak, it just means more people play other champions for other reasons.
Case and point: Twitch was rarely played until his visual update, at which point he saw all kinds of play. Seeing all that play, a lot of people came to the conclusion that he was too strong, and he got some nerfs. Notice that the balance of the champion didn't change between being popular and being unpopular, nor the meta, nor the items if I recall correctly. I suspect Riot has been trying to keep an eye on unpopular champions to see if they're too strong regardless of their popularity, with Swain being just one of them.
If that's true, then why Riot stated that the only reason why they never nerf Poppy is because she is barely played? (because they could just nerf her directly instead of waiting her to be popular, although she is being reworked now so it doesn't matter anymore)
The Sword Saint11 votesThey stated several times that they keep her deliberately weak until her rework comes, and that they would try and keep her semi viable in the meantime for the dedicated players but that they would 100% nerf her into the ground if she ever saw competitive play.
LaowPing3 votesIt's basically what happened to Veigar. No one played him until LCS and then everyone screamed how OP he was. If Malzahar ever became popular the same would probably happen to him.
M0b1us1 votesIt's basically what happened to Veigar. No one played him until LCS and then everyone screamed how OP he was. If Malzahar ever became popular the same would probably happen to him.
Sorry to tell you this, but Malz is sporting nearly the same win rate as Anivia and just barely played less as well (like .1% difference). If we were to follow the logic of Riot and some people, Malz would deserve a nerf as well. So would Vel, Kayle, Zil, Lux, and Annie.
DrCyanide3 votesNot what happened with Veigar at all.
Veigar was in a state many players were unhappy with. They kept buffing him and buffing him in the places that the Veigar fans didn't want him buffed in, and then one patch he crossed the "OP" line. The same patch he got AP from Assists and his W was sped up is when he was seen in Pro Play.
Duke Anax2 votesthe thing is maybe the mastery made them strong, however only nerfing the mastery to the point where Swain and brand would be OK again would mean no one else could use the mastery.
So taking some power from the champ and some power from the mastery makes for more even balance across all of that mastery users.
Sir Yamazuki4 votesI don't understand how you can claim this when both champs were almost entirely unseen before you made the changes, hell Swain still is borderline unseen now.
Lets completely ignore Brand had been dominating as a support and a mid laner throughout S5 and continued to do so. Also, for a champion you "never" see, he sure did have a high pick rate.
kile1471 votesI have been complaining about Brand for awhile. He was the strongest support in the game for quite awhile there.
Earl Eulrich1 votesthe unseen Swain is the deadliest...(ok, sorry)
CoolKnightST1 votesSwain was strong for a really long time. I have a friend that got from silver to plat just by abusing this champion. He start dropping to gold V ones he start to play other champions. He stopped playing to keep gold V on 0 LP before the season ended.
Crowe Stalker3 votesCould you have at least looked at the interaction between Torment and Deathfire Touch before hitting Nevermove? Wasn't Ahri's Charm reworked to remove the damage amplifier because it made her full combo too powerful? Why is Swain still having a Damage Amplifier on a basic ability on a ten second (or less) cooldown that applies not just to magic, but all damage aside from True Damage?
Deathfire Touch is the problem, but the damage amplification on Torment just makes it worse. Instead of altering that, it was decided for some reason that Nevermove is the issue.
Abyssphere5 votesCould you have at least looked at the interaction between Torment and Deathfire Touch before hitting Nevermove? Wasn't Ahri's Charm reworked to remove the damage amplifier because it made her full combo too powerful? Why is Swain still having a Damage Amplifier on a basic ability on a ten second (or less) cooldown that applies not just to magic, but all damage aside from True Damage?
Deathfire Touch is the problem, but the damage amplification on Torment just makes it worse. Instead of altering that, it was decided for some reason that Nevermove is the issue.
Charm's damage amp was not removed due to being too powerful, it was removed because its reason to exist was no longer there after the removal of DFG. The Charm damage amp was put in to balance the assassination potential of DFG Ahri around hitting a difficult skillshot, because prior to that DFG-R-W could 100-0 players and that was ridiculous. While DFG existed, Ahri HAD to be an assassin, so the damage amp on Charm made her a skillful one.
When they removed DFG they knew they could finally push her more into the "mobile mage" direction they'd initially intended for her to have, so the damage amp on Charm was removed to reduce her assassination potential in exchange for improved kiting.
tl;dr the idea that damage amps are inherently problematic or too powerful is ridiculous. Ahri's was removed because it gave her a playstyle that Riot didn't want her to have, while Swain's does no such thing. It's fine.
One Bind Morgana20 votesYes, we think they're too strong and have got to the point where, even with mastery changes, we need to trim some power from them.
For champions versus masteries/items/whatever we start with an assessment of how the other element's performing overall. Rageblade for example's definitely too strong on Jax, but it's also just too strong across the board compared to other items. Similarly Warlord's Bloodlust was too strong in general compared to where T3 keystone masteries should be (though it's also possible Yasuo might be too strong as well, still watching that).
possible? yasuo is picked/banned pretty much every game and has a retarded win rate for someone who's supposed to get slaughtered early in exchange for a good late game. probably because he doesn't get slaughtered early, and he's simply strong as fuck no matter how early or late game it is
Messaiga3 votesHe's not your standard late game melee carry. Where he excels is in the mid-game. When he's got his Shiv and Infinity Edge he will be at his strongest in that game (assuming he didn't get them extremely late due to dying way too much). This is because he can get 100% crit super fast and his Q acts as a second auto-attack for him (artificially increasing his "attack" speed).
Transgressor3 votes
=100%crit(purely mid-game power,lol)
Max E, buy 
Yeah bro, he excels in the mid-game. Thumbs up.
[zombie-brand-facepalm]
Messaiga6 votesEvery melee carry is stronger than him late-game. Yi, Tryndamere, and Fiora can all fight Yasuo easily. Earlier in the game though (15 - 25 minutes) Yasuo will likely output more damage.
Gameplay Board Memes and Circlejerk
Pick one.
ZLbSwAR23I1 votesHave you been watching his win rate or do you just smack your face into the keyboard to post?
His win rate is 54% with the most experienced players, 51% on average and below 50% for new players. That's slightly above midway. Meanwhile, Mundo pushing a 63% winrate, Rammus pushing 60%, along with Jax, Trynd and Brand.
LeviathanElite2 votesYes, we think they're too strong and have got to the point where, even with mastery changes, we need to trim some power from them.
For champions versus masteries/items/whatever we start with an assessment of how the other element's performing overall. Rageblade for example's definitely too strong on Jax, but it's also just too strong across the board compared to other items. Similarly Warlord's Bloodlust was too strong in general compared to where T3 keystone masteries should be (though it's also possible Yasuo might be too strong as well, still watching that).
What? If you take away the masteries, then Anivia is the exact same she has been for 5 straight seasons. Do you not see how faulty your logic is? She does NOT need a nerf
Red Ryu1 votesWhat? If you take away the masteries, then Anivia is the exact same she has been for 5 straight seasons. Do you not see how faulty your logic is? She does NOT need a nerf
Except they exist now.
LeviathanElite1 votes[{quoted}](name=Red Ryu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BVst6cij,comment-id=00020000000000150000,timestamp=2015-11-26T10:20:46.023+0000)
Except they exist now.
You are clueless arent you? All they have to do is remove or change the 1 mastery that is causing these problems for SEVERAL champions.
You dont nerf the champion itself because of an error you as a company made while synthesizing new masteries
Red Ryu1 votesYou are clueless arent you? All they have to do is remove or change the 1 mastery that is causing these problems for SEVERAL champions.
You dont nerf the champion itself because of an error you as a company made while synthesizing new masteries
That isn't how balance works.
You add a new option because it opens the game more and defines champions.
Yes you nerf a champion if they are too strong with it and that is the core issue, not the mastery that will also cauce a domino effect when you nerf it and not the champion.
LeviathanElite1 votes[{quoted}](name=Red Ryu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BVst6cij,comment-id=0002000000000015000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-26T16:50:48.987+0000)
That isn't how balance works.
You add a new option because it opens the game more and defines champions.
Yes you nerf a champion if they are too strong with it and that is the core issue, not the mastery that will also cauce a domino effect when you nerf it and not the champion.
Except they nerfed the mastery Warlord because it did just that. 3-4 champs were extremely OP with the mastery so they nerfed the mastery instead of heavily nerfing every champ that was effected by it. Anivia for one has not been touched for 5 full seasons. The only reason she is being nerfed is because of what the mastery allows her to do because of its DOT effect. I think I know more about balance than you do so dont tell me "this isnt how balance works"
Red Ryu1 votesExcept they nerfed the mastery Warlord because it did just that. 3-4 champs were extremely OP with the mastery so they nerfed the mastery instead of heavily nerfing every champ that was effected by it. Anivia for one has not been touched for 5 full seasons. The only reason she is being nerfed is because of what the mastery allows her to do because of its DOT effect. I think I know more about balance than you do so dont tell me "this isnt how balance works"
Warlords was busted because it was degenerate, purposely making bad trades just to heal it all back up. With or without Yasuo/trynd it was broken.
Many of which might get looked at again.
Death fire even nerfing it the abusers would still have absurd win rates. 55% average on Anivia that goes up to above 60% with a few more games ok her.
That screams additional work is needed. It's in the game now, so we deal with it.
So deal with it.
Spaceman5pff1 votesWhat is with these downvotes!?
