I gotta say, I'm upset.

Bouncemaster Zac··9 votes·676 views

This is a vent post more than anything so bear that in mind. (I'm also not sure exactly where to put it but it's technically gameplay related so I'm putting it in Gameplay.) I just really feeling like putting this out there since it's been really agitating me.

I picked up Zac way back at the tail end of Season 3/beginning of Season 4. Based solely on "he's a tank and also a goofy blob man superhero without the dark tragic backstory everyone else seems to have." First 6300 I ever bought. I fell in love with his gameplay and goofy personality immediately so I started maining him before I even knew what "maining" a Champion was. And I gotta say, at that point in time Zac was not a strong Champion. He couldn't jungle at all because his sustain just wasn't good enough and his clear speed was too low since cinderhulk wasn't a thing yet and more importantly, he had his old W which was locked at a 4s cd without the blobs = refresh mechanic. So I played him top, maxed Q, slapped folks to death. Had fun with that. Won lanes against Renekton when he was King Shit of "nobody comes top but me" Land.

Eventually he gets his "mechanical and QoL" rework that changed his W to 5s cd but with the blobs = refresh thing, and changed his ult from straight knock-up "malph ult but not as good" to a knock-up-and-away team splitter. I switched to playing him jungle (and learning to jungle) and had even more fun with that; flying out of bushes to splat people in the face. After that he only showed up in the patch notes every now and then to get minor buffs or tweaks up until he got another single-ability scaling/QoL rework: the one that completely changed the range scaling on his E so that at rank 1 it barely matched summoner 4 but at rank 5 it was "The Longest Range Non-Ultimate Engage in the Game!™ " I was pretty happy with being able to pull ganks from jungle in a way I couldn't before, and the change received, as i recall, mostly positive feedback.

Over time he went from "meh" to "solid" to finally being "consistently good" earlier this season. For the first time in three years since I started playing him he wasn't just barely scraping a rounded-up 49-50%. He had a fairly consistent 51-52%. No more "why are you playing Zac he's a troll pick they gutted him a month after release." I could play a Champion I loved and reasonably expect to do well in Ranked, which I got more into the longer I played League.

Except the community didn't like that a Champion designed around being durable and ganking from long range was... durable, and ganking from long range. No sooner does he become a solid competitive Champion than the Boards are flooded with "ZAC SO FUCXKING BROKNE GANK FROM TWO LANE AWAY AND ONESHOT ME!!1!" No, that isn't hyperbole, I saw many many people accuse him of that. And Riot, eager to kill another tank for having the audacity to do what they were designed to do, puts him on the rework list. He comes out of it so slow, clunky, and unwieldy that he instantly becomes an unplayable trollpick. Completely worthless. And all of the complaints from players like me, all of them, were saying "make him more responsive and less clunky and then maybe this rework will be okay." Riot hears however, "make him less clunky, but also give him titanic numbers buffs on top of it." Which is what they do. So now he's functional, just like we wanted, and also pushing in-game numbers that make new Galio look like old Galio. They turned Zac into the tank version of S2 Kassadin: banned permanently, dodged immediately if picked when not banned. I can't even play my favorite Champ in normals either without having people (even my own team) complain that I'm tryharding and making the game unfun.

The entire rework was an ill-conceived knee-jerk reaction to immobile mage/adc players complaining that a Champion designed to gank them was able to do his job and gank them. Nobody is happy about Zac's rework and the fact that he's now completely broken op, especially Zac mains.

I just want my old blob friend back.

TL;DR: People (read: immobile mage and adc mains) bitched and moaned that Zac was an "op generalist who does too much damage" even though he wasn't. In response Riot reworked him into... an op generalist who does too much damage. Great fucking job everyone.

24 Comments

Forescythe3 votes

I liked this post, because it explains how i feel about most champions and their balance right now. Sadly, it will all fall on deaf ears. Great post though

Dehitay2 votes

I main Mundo top and I remember when Riot buffed his E completely out of nowhere and got him permabanned for over 3 months. I don't even remember anybody complaining about how weak he was prior to it. He seemed perfectly balanced before they just suddenly buffed him.

sobi9992 votes

He is annoying i must say because the usual counter to junglers is to ward but he denies that as well, unless you ward deep into the jungle. He doesn't do insane damage so i am happy with that but as of right now he is surely worthy enough to be included in the 10 ban.

Bouncemaster Zac4 votes

{quoted}

He is annoying i must say because the usual counter to junglers is to ward but he denies that as well, unless you ward deep into the jungle. He doesn't do insane damage so i am happy with that but as of right now he is surely worthy enough to be included in the 10 ban.

Thing is... Zac has done that for over 2 years, since they gave his E the range scaling update. He's been able to gank from outside the standard side-bush-ward-zone for years now and nobody ever thought it was OP because that was the one big thing he had going for him. Out of nowhere people just suddenly up and started complaining that he was OP and did too much damage and there's no counterplay how dare you expect me to actually ward the jungle camps I know he's gonna gank from just gut him already reeeee. And I'm convinced all this is what led to his completely unnecesary rework: people bitching that his E was super op because it actually required them to pay attention and play well against it. His E is not now, nor has it ever been op, and it is completely fine for it to have as much range as it does. It has a second or two of wind-up, a couple seconds of travel time, and a big red "dont stand here" circle for the enemy. If you're constantly getting hit by his E either you're playing really badly or he's playing really well.

sobi9991 votes

I would actually extend the time of his animation as he E's away and lands on the ground, to give a longer window of reaction. I can see this solving most of his problems but riot will likely mess about with him in different ways that I can't even imagine.

Bouncemaster Zac1 votes

{quoted}

I would actually extend the time of his animation as he E's away and lands on the ground, to give a longer window of reaction. I can see this solving most of his problems but riot will likely mess about with him in different ways that I can't even imagine.

He already has enough delay and visible indication on his E as it is. If the travel time were any longer or the shadow appeared any sooner or it had ending lag it would become useless since you'd never hit it, even on completely immobile targets.

sobi9991 votes

I believe the range itself is of so much use to him that landing on the enemy is not always necessary. Its why lee sin is hated so much for his unique ability to ward hop and then Q, covering a huge distance in an instant. Also zac has 3 cc's so coming closer to the enemy is good enough or is it not? I don't play zac you see but i have seen his absurd cc though.

Bouncemaster Zac2 votes

{quoted}

I believe the range itself is of so much use to him that landing on the enemy is not always necessary. Its why lee sin is hated so much for his unique ability to ward hop and then Q, covering a huge distance in an instant. Also zac has 3 cc's so coming closer to the enemy is good enough or is it not? I don't play zac you see but i have seen his absurd cc though.

That's part of the thing though. Again, that's the fault of the rework. Before if he didn't actually hit you with his E he either had to take what he had and make a sub-par engage with his ult, or slap you once with Q and walk off. Pre-rework he had to land his E or miss out on most of his threat and impact. Sure new Zac has more "skill expression," but that's because he has far more options, making it far harder to mess up with him, or outplay when you're against him. My whole point with this whole thread: _every complaint that every person in this thread has voiced about Zac is over things he wasn't able to do until his rework. The rework was a bad idea, made him busted, and needs reverted. _

sobi9991 votes

I doubt it that riot will revert as they have not reverted many other champs that they literally made useless or completely busted in the past. I think zac has decent damage and he whatsoever doesn't need damage reduction. He will need a huge rework for him to be some what acceptable by the community. Right now he is even banned in lower and higher elos. He brings way too much to the table.

Bouncemaster Zac1 votes

{quoted}

I doubt it that riot will revert as they have not reverted many other champs that they literally made useless or completely busted in the past. I think zac has decent damage and he whatsoever doesn't need damage reduction. He will need a huge rework for him to be some what acceptable by the community. Right now he is even banned in lower and higher elos. He brings way too much to the table.

As I've said in this thread, I agree. His new kit simply does too many things at once, and it was not a step in a healthy direction like they wanted it to be.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

Thing is... Zac has done that for over 2 years, since they gave his E the range scaling update. He's been able to gank from outside the standard side-bush-ward-zone for years now and nobody ever thought it was OP because that was the one big thing he had going for him.

Wow, last year there was a time where Zac was perma ban, don't forget it. By the way, the new Zac have more CC (totaly legit) along his jump and his damages.

nm10101 votes

Boy I wish that I had those rose tinted glasses.

Edit: I guess his slew of nerfs all happened end of season 3. So no you never experienced them, fair enough I was mistaken.

Bouncemaster Zac2 votes

{quoted}

Boy I wish that I had those rose tinted glasses.

In regards to what? My outlook is pretty bleak. They destroyed my favorite Champion without valid cause and I know they're never gonna undo it because Riot considers "revert" a dirty word.

nm10101 votes

I thought the slew of nerfs he received were throughout season 4, I guess meteos dumpstering everyone on Zac got him nerfed a lot earlier than I thought.

Bouncemaster Zac1 votes

{quoted}

I thought the slew of nerfs he received were throughout season 4, I guess meteos dumpstering everyone on Zac got him nerfed a lot earlier than I thought.

Possibly. I just know I got called a troll a lot for picking him in S4. Didn't make me love his kit and design any less.

nm10101 votes

Yeah he got a pretty thorough beating with the nerf bat.

Passive pick up range was reduced by 50%

E and R lost damage and R lost the 75% tenacity effect it used to have.

Warning Shot1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bouncemaster Zac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BVXy650r,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-07-04T11:51:55.547+0000)

This is a vent post more than anything so bear that in mind. (I'm also not sure exactly where to put it but it's technically gameplay related so I'm putting it in Gameplay.) I just really feeling like putting this out there since it's been really agitating me.

I picked up Zac way back at the tail end of Season 3/beginning of Season 4. Based solely on "he's a tank and also a goofy blob man superhero without the dark tragic backstory everyone else seems to have." First 6300 I ever bought. I fell in love with his gameplay and goofy personality immediately so I started maining him before I even knew what "maining" a Champion was. And I gotta say, at that point in time Zac was not a strong Champion. He couldn't jungle at all because his sustain just wasn't good enough and his clear speed was too low since cinderhulk wasn't a thing yet and more importantly, he had his old W which was locked at a 4s cd without the blobs = refresh mechanic. So I played him top, maxed Q, slapped folks to death. Had fun with that. Won lanes against Renekton when he was King Shit of "nobody comes top but me" Land.

Eventually he gets his "mechanical and QoL" rework that changed his W to 5s cd but with the blobs = refresh thing, and changed his ult from straight knock-up "malph ult but not as good" to a knock-up-and-away team splitter. I switched to playing him jungle (and learning to jungle) and had even more fun with that; flying out of bushes to splat people in the face. After that he only showed up in the patch notes every now and then to get minor buffs or tweaks up until he got another single-ability scaling/QoL rework: the one that completely changed the range scaling on his E so that at rank 1 it barely matched summoner 4 but at rank 5 it was "The Longest Range Non-Ultimate Engage in the Game!™ " I was pretty happy with being able to pull ganks from jungle in a way I couldn't before, and the change received, as i recall, mostly positive feedback.

Over time he went from "meh" to "solid" to finally being "consistently good" earlier this season. For the first time in three years since I started playing him he wasn't just barely scraping a rounded-up 49-50%. He had a fairly consistent 51-52%. No more "why are you playing Zac he's a troll pick they gutted him a month after release." I could play a Champion I loved and reasonably expect to do well in Ranked, which I got more into the longer I played League.

Except the community didn't like that a Champion designed around being durable and ganking from long range was... durable, and ganking from long range. No sooner does he become a solid competitive Champion than the Boards are flooded with "ZAC SO FUCXKING BROKNE GANK FROM TWO LANE AWAY AND ONESHOT ME!!1!" No, that isn't hyperbole, I saw many many people accuse him of that. And Riot, eager to kill another tank for having the audacity to do what they were designed to do, puts him on the rework list. He comes out of it so slow, clunky, and unwieldy that he instantly becomes an unplayable trollpick. Completely worthless. And all of the complaints from players like me, all of them, were saying "make him more responsive and less clunky and then maybe this rework will be okay." Riot hears however, "make him less clunky, but also give him titanic numbers buffs on top of it." Which is what they do. So now he's functional, just like we wanted, and also pushing in-game numbers that make new Galio look like old Galio. They turned Zac into the tank version of S2 Kassadin: banned permanently, dodged immediately if picked when not banned. I can't even play my favorite Champ in normals either without having people (even my own team) complain that I'm tryharding and making the game unfun.

The entire rework was an ill-conceived knee-jerk reaction to immobile mage/adc players complaining that a Champion designed to gank them was able to do his job and gank them. Nobody is happy about Zac's rework and the fact that he's now completely broken op, especially Zac mains.

I just want my old blob friend back.

Yep, they took him from engaging from a mile away to engaging from a mile away and then dragging me back into his team afterward.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

KING BROKNE GANK FROM TWO LANE AWAY AND ONESHOT ME!!1!" No, that isn't hyperbole, I saw many many people accuse him of that. And Riot, eager to kill another tank for having the audacity to do what they were designed to do, puts him on the rework list.

I don't agree with that. he wasn't designed to deal theses insanly damage. Basicaly he shouldn't have all of this :

  • durability
  • mobility
  • damage

Same for tank update, this board is upset cause most of tank have lose their damage... But it wasn't legit to begin to have this tankiness AND damage. Tank job is to... Tank and bring CC, no more not less. They should shine in teamfight, not in lane.

So now he's functional, just like we wanted, and also pushing in-game numbers that make new Galio look like old Galio.

functional ?? no noAatrox MonkeyKing are functional, Zac is just too strong.

Bouncemaster Zac1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ryuumoku no koke,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BVXy650r,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2017-07-04T21:51:15.825+0000)

I don't agree with that. he wasn't designed to deal theses insanly damage. Basicaly he shouldn't have all of this :

  • durability
  • mobility
  • damage

Same for tank update, this board is upset cause most of tank have lose their damage... But it wasn't legit to begin to have this tankiness AND damage. Tank job is to... Tank and bring CC, no more not less. They should shine in teamfight, not in lane.

functional ?? no noAatrox MonkeyKing are functional, Zac is just too strong.

Except he didn't have super high crazy damage outside of the base damage on his E, and his ult but only if he focused on landing all 4 hits of it on the same person, which meant sacrificing cc for teamfights. He never had "insane damage" until after the rework. Immobile ADCs and Mages who built literally 0 MR or hp were just upset they couldn't push up blindly to oneshot their lane opponent without getting punished. Did you not read the post all the way through? I said outright he's too strong currently. And it's the fault of this completely unnecessary rework. He was perfectly fine before. People just didn't like the idea of needing to play safe against a strong ganking Champion.

People aren't upset that tanks "lost their damage." Hell, all 3 of the reworked tanks ended up dealing significantly more damage. It's the fact that the reworks fucked with their gameplay in a way their mains didn't want or approve of. They all feel less rewarding despite being arguably more powerful. ~~ Also no Aatrox really isn't functional at all he's a mess.~~

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

Except he didn't have super high crazy damage outside of the base damage on his E, and his ult but only if he focused on landing all 4 hits of it on the same person, which meant sacrificing cc for teamfights

i speak about current zac for insane damage. i don't remember what was nerfed last year tbh.

nd it's the fault of this completely unnecessary rework.

kit wise, he's better atm.

People aren't upset that tanks "lost their damage."

U aren't upset about this. Look at the boards last weak , there plenty example of people crying for their lack of damage. And i speak about reworked champ but all tank (they were most nerfed on this side before tank rework)

People just didn't like the idea of needing to play safe against a strong ganking Champion.

Playing safe =/= don't even play. Not all champ are mobile enough or have range to play at the good distance to prevent zac gank. Btw u can't really ward against a good zac during very early.

Also no Aatrox really isn't functional at all he's a mess.

??? where in a deep sleep ? He's a strong laner atm since his rework.

It's the fact that the reworks fucked with their gameplay in a way their mains didn't want or approve of. They all feel less rewarding despite being arguably more powerful.

What's was feeling rewarding :

  • for Zac : his old Q was boring, his ult asked no strategy/skill
  • Sejuani : old was just an bot ult.
  • maokai : i can understand why they're frustrated here, their pick was stupidly op. His ult given free tankiness, his roots offer no counter play and was too fast.
Bouncemaster Zac1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ryuumoku no koke,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BVXy650r,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2017-07-04T22:30:11.172+0000)

i speak about current zac for insane damage. i don't remember what was nerfed last year tbh.

Yeah he does a shitload of damage now. I'm upset about that too. Zac's mains didn't want that for him. Nobody did.

kit wise, he's better atm.

Stronger? Yes. Better? In my opinion no. His current kit just does too much. They're never going to be able to balance him in this state.

U aren't upset about this. Look at the boards last weak , there plenty example of people crying for their lack of damage. And i speak about reworked champ but all tank (they were most nerfed on this side before tank rework)

Trust me, tank mains are fine not dealing damage. We just want to be able to survive the enemies' damage and provide solid disruption or support. Of course, if a tank, who is intended to spread all of their abilities across the entire enemy team to spread as much peel, cc, and disables as possible dumps their entire load on a single carry who has built raw glass cannon, that carry should absolutely take a lot of damage for it. Carries on the other hand think tanks should never break 100 base damage on any of their abilities, not even ults.

Playing safe =/= don't even play. Not all champ are mobile enough or have range to play at the good distance to prevent zac gank. Btw u can't really ward against a good zac during very early.

You're objectively wrong. You have a full second of warning on a fully charged Zac E, and "move out of the way" is only the most basic of counterplay. Zac is neither untargetable nor invulnerable during the travel time and can be cc'd out of it. Great example: Ashe is the staple for immobile adcs and if she sees the shadow and doesnt have time to move she can ult him and walk off. Furthermore many supports, especially Thresh and Janna can single-handedly make it impossible for him to engage with e with their insta-cast knockups. As for not being able to ward his gank paths early, you're nuts. His E range scales with ability rank. He doesn't have the insane range he's known for until level 9. His E has always had very easy and obvious counterplay that adc and mage mains people just didn't want to have to learn.

What's was feeling rewarding :

  • for Zac : his old Q was boring, his ult asked no strategy/skill
  • Sejuani : old was just an bot ult.
  • maokai : i can understand why they're frustrated here, their pick was stupidly op. His ult given free tankiness, his roots offer no counter play and was too fast.

What felt rewarding was plotting out a gank path and setting an enemy up for your team by landing right in the middle of them and separating them with ult. His old Q being "boring" is perfectly fine; lots of abilities are "boring." Hell, Zac's W is his most boring ability and I'd have had a conniption if they changed it. His old ult did express skill. There was a big difference between just kinda randomly knocking enemies around with it versus properly separating people to be picked off by your allies. With the new ult you get to choose exactly where they land with no real effort involved. His old ult expressed way more skill than the new one. More importantly than that though: it was more fun.

My whole issue, the whole point of this thread and all my ranting is that he didn't need the rework and he's worse off as a Champion for having it.

NineTailedMystic1 votes

Id love to type out why zac had issues but im on mobile and thatd be too much effort on a phone

Tldr no one cared cause barely anyone played zac unless he was overtuned.

KuroCaliber1 votes

See all I wanted from Zac was for them to nerf his e damage. It doesn't feel so great when you're playing mf and this guy drops on you for a knock up and 40% if your health gone in a second. Having most of his damage and cc frontloaded on a single ability just made me feel a bit helpless.

Bouncemaster Zac1 votes

I feel like bumping this to reiterate: Zac's old kit was fine and most of the issues people had with it were small or imagined. The rework was a shit idea. Riot, seriously, undo it.

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