you know who was an ACTUAL balanced assasin?

SwiftKitten88·Jul 9, 2016·5 votes·648 views

before riot decided to ruin her by throwing her into the jungle? riot takes about of all people being a good example of a balanced assasin because they say you have .5 seconds when you know your going to ulti him... you know he is going to spawn behind you.

you wan to know who was healthy back in season 4 and 5 after her rework? NIDALEE

because guess what.. unlike EVERY OTHER ASSASSIN in the game. nidalee HAS to land a spear to go in.

    Akali

press R to go in Ekko E to go in Evelynn you cant see her Fizz dash Kassadin r Katarina shunpo Kha'Zix e LeBlanc q Rengar ulti Shaco invisble Talon e Zed r

nidalee can ONLY go in if she lands a spear

and ALL of these can get out

    Akali

r / shroud Ekko r Evelynn you cant see her Fizz troll pole Kassadin r Katarina shunpo Kha'Zix e reset LeBlanc q Rengar ok.. not entirely sure about him Shaco invisble Talon e Zed r

and guess what.. nidalee had her pounce reset effectively removed. so she is stuck there for three more seconds with no abilties.. in melee form an an AP champ

solve the rest yourself

36 Comments

CerealBoxOfDoomJul 9, 20165 votes

nidalee could barely even be called an assassin before her rework. She's more balanced like an assassin after.

What are you talking about

SwiftKitten88Jul 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

nidalee could barely even be called an assassin before her rework. She's more balanced like an assassin after.

What are you talking about

um.. i know she wasn't an assassin before her rework and she was a balanced assassin after.

but that balance kinda of goes away when you UNDO the rework.. by removing the traps % hp a removing the pounce reset. now she is just weak

CerealBoxOfDoomJul 9, 20162 votes

{quoted}

um.. i know she wasn't an assassin before her rework and she was a balanced assassin after.

but that balance kinda of goes away when you UNDO the rework.. by removing the traps % hp a removing the pounce reset. now she is just weak

that's what happens when you go from mid/top to mid/top/jungle and have one of the fastest clear times in the game constantly exploiting the fact that you can also get to any lane faster than the average jungler

SwiftKitten88Jul 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

that's what happens when you go from mid/top to mid/top/jungle and have one of the fastest clear times in the game constantly exploiting the fact that you can also get to any lane faster than the average jungler

she was mid/top/support then they added jungle and removed everything else.

and now she is at the point where her jungle clear speed is only average... its extremely hard, you barely survive. your easily invaded, you cant gank afterwards, and you have a horrible late game.

she still doesn't have her other roles

CerealBoxOfDoomJul 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

she was mid/top/support then they added jungle and removed everything else.

and now she is at the point where her jungle clear speed is only average... its extremely hard, you barely survive. your easily invaded, you cant gank afterwards, and you have a horrible late game.

she still doesn't have her other roles

if you can jungle at all you can go to other lanes

SwiftKitten88Jul 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

if you can jungle at all you can go to other lanes

http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/nidalee/all

take a look at her "other lanes"

CerealBoxOfDoomJul 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/nidalee/all

take a look at her "other lanes"

http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/nidalee/platinum

look at what happens when you don't include shit nidalee players.

SwiftKitten88Jul 9, 20162 votes

{quoted}

http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/nidalee/platinum

look at what happens when you don't include shit nidalee players.

her other lanes still suck even at the highest level of play?

and you are ignoring the 90% of the player base that is below plat?

CerealBoxOfDoomJul 9, 20162 votes

{quoted}

her other lanes still suck even at the highest level of play?

and you are ignoring the 90% of the player base that is below plat?

her jungle works fine she's able to get decent results even while she isn't popular in higher level play

and yes I am. You think her winrate wont move above gold just because your changes are to make her easier to play for bronze?

AbyssphereJul 9, 20162 votes

He was talking about her lanes. All of her lanes are awful even in Plat+. Your link supported him rather than contradicting him.

CerealBoxOfDoomJul 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

He was talking about her lanes. All of her lanes are awful even in Plat+. Your link supported him rather than contradicting him.

her lanes weren't awful in plat+ they weren't broken as shit but they were high enough for viability while her highest ranked one was at 50%.

If you can find champ that has 50% in every lane you should post about that OP champ.

AbyssphereJul 9, 20162 votes

I don't get why you are posting anything that you are saying. You don't seem to have any set opinion on Nidalee or any interest in her beyond using her as an excuse to disagree with the OP. You start off saying that "If you can jungle with her then you can lane with her too" (lol), then you post stats with the intent of contradicting the OP despite your stats supporting his point (did you even bother to read the page you showed him?). Now you say that she shouldn't be allowed to have good performance in lane because being good in too many roles is a bad thing.

So what is it? Are you claiming that lane Nidalee is fine because if she's able to jungle she's able to lane, or are you saying that it's appropriate that she's not fine in lane? Pick an argument and stick to it because when you constantly change your position in response to every new piece of information you look like you have no point. You're just arguing for the sake of arguing.

CerealBoxOfDoomJul 9, 20162 votes

{quoted}

I don't get why you are posting anything that you are saying. You don't seem to have any set opinion on Nidalee or any interest in her beyond using her as an excuse to disagree with the OP.

Its not an excuse, I simply disagree with what was said. The OP made an argument based off some other sketchy arguments and I pointed this out.

You start off saying that "If you can jungle with her then you can lane with her too" (lol), then you post stats with the intent of contradicting the OP despite your stats supporting his point (did you even bother to read the page you showed him?). Now you say that she shouldn't be allowed to have good performance in lane because being good in too many roles is a bad thing.

She can have good performance in more than one lane. This just isn't really a good sign.

As for the rest, my evidence didn't suggest she was bad in every other lane. If that's what you gather from it then I would argue that you are inexperienced in interpreting such a thing.

So what is it? Are you claiming that lane Nidalee is fine because if she's able to jungle she's able to lane, or are you saying that it's appropriate that she's not fine in lane? Pick an argument and stick to it because when you constantly change your position in response to every new piece of information you look like you have no point. You're just arguing for the sake of arguing.

Nidalee is fine regardless of if she can lane or not Nidalee can probably lane regardless of is she's fine or not My position has not changed and why I argue isn't just for the sake of arguing but given the nature of what I'm responding to I'd rather not assume you really give a shit and go on typing about all that. I'm just going to assume you give me shit for the sake of giving me shit to make a point instead.

SwiftKitten88Jul 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Its not an excuse, I simply disagree with what was said. The OP made an argument based off some other sketchy arguments and I pointed this out.

She can have good performance in more than one lane. This just isn't really a good sign.

As for the rest, my evidence didn't suggest she was bad in every other lane. If that's what you gather from it then I would argue that you are inexperienced in interpreting such a thing.

Nidalee is fine regardless of if she can lane or not Nidalee can probably lane regardless of is she's fine or not My position has not changed and why I argue isn't just for the sake of arguing but given the nature of what I'm responding to I'd rather not assume you really give a shit and go on typing about all that. I'm just going to assume you give me shit for the sake of giving me shit to make a point instead.

sketchy arguments?

fact.. between patch 4.17 and patch 5.2 nidalee was untouched and had a 50% winrate accross ALL elos in top and mid.. and a 48% win rate as support

fact.. riot allowed nidalee to jungle in patch 5.2 http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Nidalee/Background fact nidalee WAS bugged in patch 5.2 with her abilities resetting and this was fixed in 5.3 fact patch 5.5 removed the % hp from nidalee and her support ad mid role dropped below 40% and dropping and top winrates below 45% http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/nidalee/support/all fact nidalee was continuously nerfed because of her "high elo clear speed" and yet none of these nerfs affect her clear speed at anything other than lower elos, with her high elo clear speed remaining the same Fact the removal (nerf) of the pounce reset COMPLETELY went against the ENTIRE purpose of her rework which was to allow her to pounce where it wasn't safe. and now because of this nidalee is now AGAIN throwing spears all day because pouncing in now will get you killed because you no longer have a way to escape after you do so. BECUASE... FACT nidalee is NOT a diver and isn't tanky and relies on her pounce to exit a fight after she trades. FACT. i have asked riot for over a year why her %hp was removed from her traps instead of lower the cap of 200 vs monsters to 40 or 50. Fact: riot has never responded

CerealBoxOfDoomJul 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

sketchy arguments?

fact.. between patch 4.17 and patch 5.2 nidalee was untouched and had a 50% winrate accross ALL elos in top and mid.. and a 48% win rate as support

You know its sketchy when people start off with "this champ was untouched" so many item changes and jungle changes, especially between seasons. They didn't even have the same masteries at this point did they?

fact.. riot allowed nidalee to jungle in patch 5.2 http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Nidalee/Background fact nidalee WAS bugged in patch 5.2 with her abilities resetting and this was fixed in 5.3 fact patch 5.5 removed the % hp from nidalee and her support ad mid role dropped below 40% and dropping and top winrates below 45% http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/nidalee/support/all fact nidalee was continuously nerfed because of her "high elo clear speed" and yet none of these nerfs affect her clear speed at anything other than lower elos, with her high elo clear speed remaining the same Fact the removal (nerf) of the pounce reset COMPLETELY went against the ENTIRE purpose of her rework which was to allow her to pounce where it wasn't safe. and now because of this nidalee is now AGAIN throwing spears all day because pouncing in now will get you killed because you no longer have a way to escape after you do so. BECUASE... FACT nidalee is NOT a diver and isn't tanky and relies on her pounce to exit a fight after she trades. FACT. i have asked riot for over a year why her %hp was removed from her traps instead of lower the cap of 200 vs monsters to 40 or 50. Fact: riot has never responded

fact: I never said nidalee was a diver fact: facts are things that can be either true or false unlike the opposite which is an opinion fact: despite all of this nidalee was a top tier jungle pick in LCS at the same time that fiora was strong in NA LCS which places the time frame in early season 6 long after these things you are concerned about.

most likely if i'm remembering right they removed the % damage because full tank or bruiser nidalee was kindof stupid to have to deal with. At the time she also had weird winrates because diamond players were playing her much differently than everyone else. Have you tried the new triforce on her by the way?

TormentulaJul 9, 20162 votes

Nidalee is a diver, not an assassin.

and even if she was considered an assassin she's still broken in comparison to the rest, almost zed level actually.

SwiftKitten88Jul 9, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Nidalee is a diver, not an assassin.

and even if she was considered an assassin she's still broken.

here is a riot post for you

DIVERS Vi Xin Zhao Nocturne Pantheon Jarvan Wukong Warwick Renekton Elise Hecarim Lee Sin Irelia Aatrox Evelynn Diana

know what these have in common?

THEY ARE TANKY, they can STAY in a fight. and not instantly die.

CerealBoxOfDoomJul 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

here is a riot post for you

know what these have in common?

THEY ARE TANKY, they can STAY in a fight. and not instantly die.

so can nidalee if she builds to do so just like irelia lee sin elise Evelynn Diana etc.

Those are divers because they don't want to leave after they dive.

AbyssphereJul 9, 20162 votes

But Nidalee does want to leave after she dives. That's why she has the Pounce reset.

CerealBoxOfDoomJul 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

But Nidalee does want to leave after she dives. That's why she has the Pounce reset.

no, nidalee just wants to leave after she dives. There's no "but"

You aren't contradicting anything I said.

AbyssphereJul 9, 20162 votes

You seem to know what a Diver is and yet you can't seem to see why Nidalee not fitting with any of the defning traits of that class means she isn't one.

CerealBoxOfDoomJul 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

You seem to know what a Diver is and yet you can't seem to see why Nidalee not fitting with any of the defning traits of that class means she isn't one.

The original statement and the response were both off. So I made two comments in one.

firstly, nidalee can do the same thing based off the original less accurate definition of a diver.

next I mentioned the more accurate definition based off years of riots own definitions since the incorrect argument was an incorrect response to an incorrect assertion.. or whatever you'd call it. The list was right the interpretation was not. That is a quote from riot but the context was way off. Its not just about how they go in, not completely, but rather what they do next alongside the power of said engage.

but most importantly, I address the two side by side because it is an important distinction between nidalee and all the others on the diver list. More important than the fact that they are tanky or can get tanky. Even if you go full tank as nidalee (don't do this) you do not want to actually stay in the middle of the enemy team unlike the other squishier divers who just fail to give a shit cuz honeybadger or bullshit ults or whatever

TormentulaJul 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

here is a riot post for you

know what these have in common?

THEY ARE TANKY, they can STAY in a fight. and not instantly die.

You mean nidalee who can jump in an out, build a RoA and zhonya's, and just pokes people under tower with a spear?

Yea, don't contridict yourself.

If anything you just justicified that she's more of a diver than nocturne, diana, lee sin, and evelynn (wait wtf evelynn is a diver?).

AbyssphereJul 9, 20162 votes

...? Divers survive in a fight by sheer force of will and tankiness. If Nidalee survives in fights by jumping in and out or just staying out of the fight (poking with spears) then she is absolutely not a diver. Like, you seriously just used "She can poke people" as evidence for her being a Diver? Do you know anything about what defines the classes?

TormentulaJul 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

...? Divers survive in a fight by sheer force of will and tankiness. If Nidalee survives in fights by jumping in and out or just staying out of the fight (poking with spears) then she is absolutely not a diver. Like, you seriously just used "She can poke people" as evidence for her being a Diver? Do you know anything about what defines the classes?

Nocturne, Diana, and evelynn don't dive with sheer force of will and tankiness.. Diana and evelynn especially are more like assassins. The only time a diver is tanky is if they build tank (or pantheon's passive..)

You tell me what her poking with a spear defines her as, as my point of her not being an assassin still stands.

To me, a diver would be a champ that "dives into" fights going for back liners or shutting people down while until tower. Nidalee fits that description perfectly fine jumping in cougar and then jumping out like nothing happened. She's not the tankiest things out there, but she's definitely tankier than an evelynn whos in this category.. all nidalee needs is a RoA and red smite.

AbyssphereJul 9, 20161 votes

"a diver would be a champ that "dives into" fights going for back liners or shutting people down while until tower."

Right, so every assassin is a diver to you. That explains the confusion.

p.s. Evelynn is naturally much tankier than Nidalee.

TeslynJul 9, 20162 votes

o the nid spears... i remember sitting under tower having spear after spear rain down on me till 1 landed on the carry and that was the signal to go in. i am going to be honest.. 4v5's with a carry dead are ruff...

Akali is SO HOTJul 9, 20162 votes

Yeah the champion that could 100-0 you with one ability from the fog of war that was invisible half the time due to buggy coding.

SwiftKitten88Jul 9, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Akali is SO HOT,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BUEugcy9,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-07-09T19:54:32.044+0000)

Yeah the champion that could 100-0 you with one ability from the fog of war that was invisible half the time due to buggy coding.

are you seriously an idiot? first off that EXPLOIT was fixed. second.. the REASON why it took SIX MONTHS to fix was because it was almost impossible to do unless you were INTENTIONALLY try to do it. so 98% of the nids who DID throw invisible spears... not only KNEW how to it.. choose not to tell riot how they could do it on purpose. and choose to abuse this exploit.

i am a nidalee MAIN.. out of the think the hundreds of nid games i played in the period that her spear was bugged and the THOUSANDS of spears i threw. i think i had ONE opponent tell me i threw an invisible spear.

nidalee did NOT throw the spear invisible unless she WANTED to do it, and she KNEW how to abuse the exploit

Akali is SO HOTJul 9, 20161 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztVMib1T4T4

SaltyKrackaJul 9, 20162 votes

Nidalee has literally never been a healthy champion at any time she has existed in the game.

IceemberJul 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

before riot decided to ruin her by throwing her into the jungle? riot takes about of all people being a good example of a balanced assasin because they say you have .5 seconds when you know your going to ulti him... you know he is going to spawn behind you.

you wan to know who was healthy back in season 4 and 5 after her rework? NIDALEE

because guess what.. unlike EVERY OTHER ASSASSIN in the game. nidalee HAS to land a spear to go in.
    Akali
press R to go in

You ignore the fact that early she lacks the damage and like nidalee requires a Q to be on the target.

    Ekko
E to go in

Its pretty true. I'll give you that. Although i think its one of the shorter ranged gap closes in the game.

    Evelynn
you cant see her

If you have even just a normal stealth ward within direct line of sight of your champion you can see he coming.

    Fizz

dash

Another true one.

    Kassadin

Fairly short ranged. Somewhat telegraphed and doesnt deal much damage unless fed.

    Katarina

shunpo

True

    Kha&amp;#039;Zix

How else would a giant bug get around?

    LeBlanc

Its actually W but nice try.

    Rengar

ulti

True

    Shaco

invisble

Thats his Q :)

    Talon

True

Zed

I guess its true. I'd also count W in there as well...

nidalee can ONLY go in if she lands a spear

and ALL of these can get out
    Akali
r / shroud

Shroud is countered by alot of things. Pinks, Lee Sin, Tremor Sense, any other abilities/things that grant true sight. Not to mention its a 400 unit round thing that you can see her walk out of. The only time I use it as an escape is if its my last option. R requires a hostile or neutral target to be nearby.

    Ekko

Well i mean he does rewind his time xD

    Evelynn
you cant see her

? What? You can totally see an Evelynn once she has used an ability. I guess you can count W as an escape but its a pretty poor one until late game and even then its only a movespeed buff..

    Fizz
troll pole

True

    Kassadin

Depends on how much he's used it already.

    Katarina

shunpo

Only if she gets a reset.

    Kha&amp;#039;Zix

e reset

He doesnt get E reset until level 11 at the very least. Thats a long time without an escape...

    LeBlanc

Its still W

    Rengar
ok.. not entirely sure about him

R maybe otherwise he's got nothing.

    Shaco

invisble

If he used it to engage he wont have it for another 12 seconds.

    Talon

I would call his R more of an escape. Depends on how he's using it though. As E is typically an engage and R for disengage (granted his opponents dont have a pink or sweepers.)

Zed

I mean i guess the return can be used but generally it isnt too far away from where he is currently fighting and i wouldn't consider it terribly reliable.

and guess what.. nidalee had her pounce reset effectively removed. so she is stuck there for three more seconds with no abilties.. in melee form an an AP champ

Same with almost all the listed champs except a few and those are few and far between.

solve the rest yourself

Truly PridefulJul 9, 20161 votes

Did you just list "can't see her" as a way out for Eve? Generally Eve isn't gettin out once she's in.

Kha'zix is a decent example of a good aassassin. He needs to accomplish something to leave.

If Shaco uses deceive to get in, he isn't getting out that way because it has a cooldown.

Talon can't just E out, have you ever played Talon?

Do you know what Nidalee can do that none of the actual assassins ( aside from Zed ) can do? Choose to poke and still do very good damage. Nidalee is honestly just a mage than has a conditional "assassination" pattern.

SwiftKitten88Jul 10, 20161 votes

wait... your the same person.. who said

{quoted}

mundo isn't a tank

.... GET OUT OF MY THREAD!!! if you cant even accept that the tankiest champion in the ENTIRE game is a tank.. you have no right to pass judgement on this game

373danversJul 10, 20161 votes

A champion that would spam q and chunk squishies for 90% of their hp was balanced? fanboy detected

SwiftKitten88Jul 10, 20161 votes

{quoted}

A champion that would spam q and chunk squishies for 90% of their hp was balanced? fanboy detected

nid spear hasn't done anywhere NEAR 90 % of an enemy hp since before her rework... i just finished what might has possibly been one of my best nid games ever. i reached full build at 29 min with about 700 AP and i threw a max range spear that hit the enemy Ezreal who had around 1.8k hp. i know it was less than 2k and slightly above 1.5k) it did about 70% of his hp...

i had an EIGHT THOUSAND gold lead on him. i had a SIX level lead,i was lvl 18.. he was lvl 12 he was the squishiest member of their team, ZERO magic from items, his only HP item being the item 1055 he still had and he 70% damage from my full build spear.. there is no way in hell nidalee is goign to do 90% of the HP of ANYONE.

i said nidalee was balanced AFTER her rework.. between patch 4.17 and patch 5.2... in ALL her roles. top mid and support with a 50% win rate across ALL elos, bronze- challenger ALL 50 % win rate in THREE roles. (ok well support was only 48% win rate but that still great considering she had TWO other role at 50%.

and even until 5.5 nidalee was still balance in top mid and support at the same win rate. it wasn't until the first nerf hit that nidalee was no longer balanced in top mid and support.

i DON'T have a issue with riot tryind to balance her in the jungle, she was pretty op in the jungle.. what i have an issue with is riot destroyed the viability of THREE other roles she had.. let alone three BALANCED roles... more than ANY other champion at the time.

giving a champion with 3 balanced roles a 4th role is great. giving a giving with 3 balanced roles and destroyed those roles so you can balance her in a 4th completely different role is a failure. even if she does end up balanced in that role.. which she still HASN'T been for the past YEAR AND A HALF.

also... she CAN'T spam spears. indefinitely. (well she CAN if you have 2 or three oceans AND a blue buff, but that that point any mana using champ has infinite mana) in that SAME GAME we actually took down two inhibs both nexus turrets and i killed thier adc (the same EZ who i poked earlier for 70% of his hp) and i had to tell my team to back off and i had to go back to the jungle to get more mana from item 1410 granted we still won 4 min later. but that is a perfect situation where we could have EASILY won the game right then and there if i had mana. but i didnt becuase we had about very long 30 second teamfight around thier base when we took the two inhib turrets and thier inhibs and thes nesus turrets

nidalee just just "spam spears" in teamfights.. nidalee's spear is 90 mana at max level her heal is 120 mana at max level and even thogh her traps are pretty much worthless for anything other than playing them down to proc item 3100 on your next auto

they still cost 40 mana (going up to 60 at lvl 18) yes 40 mana isnt alot

but with 45% cdr nid's spear has about a 3.5 second coodown heal has about an 7 second cooldown with 45% cdr and traps as about a 5 second cooldown if nidalee is spamming her spells in a teamfight

she is going to go through around 420 per 7 second (i took off 20 becuase you dont normally instaly cast the spear the spell the moment it comes off cooldown... you usually try to aim the spears)

thats about 60 mana per second

nid (at least the way i build her) has about 1300 mana last game

thats means at 60 mana per second. spamming her abilties.. she is going to have ZERO mana in 22 seconds if you exclude all regen sources. im goign to be generous and add 8 extra second to that for regen... so in a 30 second fight.. spamming spells.. in a pure "siege" mode.. with no pouncing in and waiting 4 second in cougar form before about human ability that costs mana she will have ZERO mana in 30 seconds and lets say she Is pouncing in and using cugar from skills.. she wil STILL be out of mana after 1 min of a prolonged teamfight (this includes mana regen)