One of the biggest problems I see moving past this season and beyond

HateDaddy··148 votes·21,179 views

Season 8 is rapidly coming to a close. With that, the end of what many people consider Riot's worse year yet is wrapping up. I do not want to spend a great deal of time discussing this because in reality, there's no way an objective conversation is going to be had about it. And quite honestly, it's pointless - most people have their minds made up one way or another at this point. However, regardless of where exactly this season ranks, I think it is safe to say most people will agree the game didn't feel good this season. In fact, I wasn't even active for the majority of this season and even I am telling you the game has felt completely unfun for me more times than not. One of the biggest reasons why it is unfun for me is that I feel like you've lost sight of your goal to maintain "strategic diversity." In fact, strategic play barely exists, even from the top down. And a lot of people have hated that.

One of the biggest issues I've taken up with this game over the last two years (keep in mind I took roughly a year off, but I'm counting season 7 as well) is that you have conditioned your player base into not understanding macro-level play. You've put such an emphasis on micro play with your champions and in the first 10-15 minutes of lane phase (micro play), that people barely understand how to open a map up now. I realize my current rank is plat 5 and I've consistently been in diamond 5-3 in the past, but even then, this rank of players still knew how to at least conceptually approach breaking the map open, even if they could not execute it. Here are things you've done that have hurt that:

-Nerfed TP constantly -Buffed combat summoners that adhere to lane phase (ignite) -Increased complexity in what champions can do, many of these things violate marco approaches because there's no need to macro when a champion like Zoe can pop you under tower and retreat and do this in a cycle. -You've increased damage to such unbearable levels that even if people wanted to properly teamfight, it wouldn't matter because one combo kills just about anything not fully invested into full defense. -You've even made random damage application to defensive spells that end up being abused in favor of offense, something you still to this day have not truly addressed (Grasp of the undying, Aftershock [fiddle], etc). -You've encouraged extreme snowballing and reduced the ability to adequately defend your base with towers being laughable in terms of their ability to stand and damage champions; you've made objectives incredibly easy to do (practically anyone can solo dragon at level 4 and baron dies so easily; rift herald is literally a free tower, two if you play it correctly). -You've completely neutered defense across the board in favor of true damage, %hp true damage and %penetration while decreasing the effectiveness of defensive values both by sheer numbers and passive nerfs/removals.
-CC chain locking is laughably easy. Everything has CC now. EVERYTHING. -Dragon types are probably okay for the game but it is still RNG and they give too much broad power. Maybe they aren't good. This is obviously debatable.

All of this has contributed to a game that, in a single word, feels: cheesy. Seriously, at this point, the goal of this game is to cheese the first 2-3 kills and then snowball from there. It isn't hard. In fact, it happens so often now, people don't even know what to do. As I stated above, people literally do not understand how to play the map anymore. People have become conditioned to zerging and cheesing at every opportunity (largely because it works way more than it should) they get because you've penalized styles of play that promote strategy and the "long game" in favor of pizzazz and dazzle because of your love affair with LCS and optics. Most people have stressed they actually hate this about the game now; players like Scarra, Doublelift, Super Top and many more have more or less all agreed on these points (see: Doublelift's https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhI-QLG_DJU; Scarra's: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_SRmCrgnQk&t=1597s and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiOBO4sKBBQ; Hashinshin's: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ig4W9L5wdII [take this with a grain of salt, he mostly rants about trivial things but through this and many of his other scrambled thoughts, he tends to more or less say what DL and Scarra said above, even if he says he doesn't think so).

Even if you manage to return the strategic play and remove snowballing and brainless zombie zerging down mid as an actual optimal strategy in everything masters and below, you're still going to have a few problems. People are going to need to relearn strategy to the extents we once had and enjoyed in seasons 2, 3, 4 and even 5. There's a good chance there will be a great deal of backlash from that (maybe no on boards, but possibly on reddit and general consensus from your players in-game). They'll feel like they have to learn "a new game," much the same way many of us who preferred a slower approach feel.

No matter how much good will you build up, too, you'll have to expect that you'll have lost players that you simply will never have back. I am loyal to a fault, largely because I simply do not have the time to do anything else. I love this game, but I am an incredibly busy man with a full-time job, full-time university, and family. I do not have time to learn other games. I do not have the patience to keep up with trendy games. I would argue that as newer games have progressed in their design and complexity, I may not even have the physical and mental ability to optimally play these games at my age given my current schedule. But I will always play league more or less because I've learned the basics at a high level and those will always translate to any meta. Most players are not me. They are young, devoid of responsibility and an incredibly flexible schedule. They grew up in a word of instant-gratification because everything they want is always at their fingertips, they will have no patience for trying something they do not like and going back to it. Games come out in the thousands now, when I was young they didn't because online gaming was still a novel concept. You have all this working against you in addition to the way you've poorly conditioned your player base, I am not sure what the answers are. But what I will say is just continue to be transparent and actually stay involved with the community and stop shoving the LCS down people's throats (seriously, this region is never going to care unless NA actually has a chance at worlds) and who knows. I'm rooting for the game to be successful, but I'm not so sure others are.

91 Comments

Saezio54 votes

RITO MAKING THE GAME A COINTOSS TO GIVE NA A CHANCE AT WORLDS CONFIRMED?

HateDaddy46 votes

{quoted}

RITO MAKING THE GAME A COINTOSS TO GIVE NA A CHANCE AT WORLDS CONFIRMED?

That coin better have two tails on it with NA calling tails and maybe, maybe just then NA loses a round with dignity.

3TWarrior6 votes

remember, even on a two-headed coin or a two-tailed coin, there is still the chance that it will land on its side!

saltran6 votes

The gab between LPL/LCK and other regions cant be bigger this year

OHminus1 votes

Honestly we say that every year.

Also not comfortable lumping LPL with LCK. They look as good (or even better) than LCK but come worlds time one team makes it to semis, if that, and thats it. The other 2 choke in groups or in quarters and lose to teams they shouldnt lose to.

Mizaya2 votes

Let's not give people false hope now

Poske2 votes

{quoted}

RITO MAKING THE GAME A COINTOSS TO GIVE NA A CHANCE AT WORLDS CONFIRMED?

Baron wars are coinflips since 2008. NA has no excuse

Linna Excel15 votes

{quoted}

Seriously, at this point, the goal of this game is to cheese the first 2-3 kills and then snowball from there.

Thank you for making me regret trying to pick up Shyvana again even more. I think I better understand why she has a terrible play rate now.

I simply do not have the time to do anything else. I love this game, but I am an incredibly busy man with a full-time job, full-time university, and family.

This is something I've been trying to get riot's attention on for awhile now. The playerbase is getting older and riot needs to start taking that into account.

IainG101 votes

Nah; fuck the current player base, all the people with most of the champs that might go 'ooh, that's a cool skin, I need it for that champ I'm just picking up' or the 'ah, I need another Rune page for this tactic' people; we MUST cater to the casuals, the 'ooh, that play looked cool on LC$, I must buy and trash-mode that champ' whales, who will spend 10% of what a veteran will spend on the game.

Sincerely, a not-at-all-fucking-bitter undergrad->PhD student with hilariously less free time....

Ragnaveil12 votes

{quoted}

-You've completely neutered defense across the board in favor of true damage, %hp true damage and %penetration while decreasing the effectiveness of defensive values both by sheer numbers and passive nerfs/removals.

The pen part is okay considering where ADs are at now (if you removed the true damage part with IE), but I definitely agree with the true damage. Its kinda getting out of hand at this point. Conqueror decides who's a good bruiser and who's a shitty one, ADs get even more access to bludgeoning a tank to death to the point the concept of tanks is mainly either in the jg or support role, etc etc. Conqueror just needs to have a different effect (honestly one that gives bruisers something good but isn't abuseable by something (Looking at you Draven), opening up to more options), and same applies to IE.

Gntex1 votes

Exactly! it's funny how in s5, as a yas main, I remember having to decide whether to build a BT, LW, or something defensive for my 3rd Item. Nowadays LW isn't even in the picture! With the conqueror and IE true damage, there is no need for armor pen. What ends up happening is you get these mega tanks damage and health, and becoming both, super tanky, and able to one-shot you, (Chogath).

Ragnaveil1 votes

Issue is that LW allows you to squeeze in extra damage into the conversion. Champions like Riven currently reap in the rewards on that aspect because the less her damage gets blocked, the more she can heal for with Death's Dance having a 33% effectiveness with her Q, W, and R2. She's just one example.

Moody P11 votes

buff Volibear to save macro play

Slythrin Umbreon7 votes

Zilean I will not allow that.

Moody P7 votes

Volibear item 3140 begone

Quort2 votes

You’re gonna need a lot more than that to killean the Zilean! >:0

Moody P2 votes

summoner 1

chipndip110 votes
  1. NEVER LINK HASHINSHIN IF YOU WANT TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY

The real 1) Damage isn't the issue. When it comes in is. Riot's added numerous sources of bursty options into the game. Duskblade, Stormrazor, Electrocute (which was TLD), fucking Dark Harvest...it isn't "damage" more than it's "burst damage".

  1. Solo queue has always been about solo carries. People keep pretending like earlier seasons were about strategy and I don't see it. In earlier seasons, people were blatantly worse at the game. In Aphromoo's famous "Support is SO easy" vid, he was playing like a fucking retard with improper spacing, taking a ton of free damage, and he was SOMEHOW able to get a double kill, anyway. League is generally a harder game than before, so stupid shit that people THOUGHT was "strategy" back then won't work now. Just means you need to play smarter.

  2. Is the game too snowbally?

...no-ish?

It CAN be when solo queue constantly favors carries over strategic picks like tanks and enchanters. Pro play games are way less snowbally because people pick good team comps. A team comp that's all damage oriented will live and die by the sword. Regardless of the outcome, you can't expect a long, drawn out team fight experience when no one is invested into making one.

Also, snowballing is good for the game in doses. Not every game should be a stomp, but some games SHOULD be. Being able to invest in and execute a volatile, win-more play style is a showcase of skill in this game. There's should also be ways to counter that, which we have (even though no one likes playing them). You can't expect a comeback to be easy when your top lane's GP and your jg is Evelynn and your GP got stomped.

  1. I agree with all the tp nerfs.

I agree with nerfing Ignite or buffing Exhaust.

  1. Idk how the complexity of a champion would "remove the need for macro". Macro play is a fundamental concept. You don't just "forgo" needing macro play. If Zoe winds up a max range Q, she had to have vision of you from off screen (warding) and she had to have a safe spot to attempt hitting you with Q. Meanwhile, for her to get the jump on you, she either had to de-ward where she is, where she is has to not be warded to begin with, or you have to just not pay attention long enough for her to get the jump on you. And to boot, for her to cash in the after hitting E, you have to itemize poorly enough that this will result in you dying.

Like, if I see a Zoe, Morgana, Lux, Sejuani, or a Nasus, I'm buying Crucible myself. That's strategic planning. A mid laner can buy Banshee. A marksman or skirmisher can buy QSS. We don't all of a sudden lose "strategic play" because Zoe exists. Zoe's a pain because people keep forgoing strategic play. Still, none of this has much to do with "macro level play"...but then again, champion picks don't just up and negate that concept to begin with.

D357R0Y3R27 votes

that's so damn wrong, league was about strategy before target selection and positioning mattered way more than anything else including hitting fucking skillshots that most of the time are not needed in this game

chipndip16 votes

Let me rephrase a bit:

League is always about strategy, even if we as players don't really play into it. If anything's hampering that down at this time, it's the burst options in the game from runes and items. The rest of it is people playing poorly while the general skill floor of the community has increased over time.

flibitydoo9 votes

It's still about strategy but they've taken a lot out.

There was a time when you would care about enemy cooldowns. "malphite's ult is still down" "Lee's smite is down" "j4 can't gank for 2 minutes" yeah now a days you don't. Because CDR is so out there that everyone and their grandma has 40%, so you just don't. The only CD that pros still track is flash cooldowns because it's been 5 minutes since forever.

There was a time when lane manipulation was a thing. It was one of those "things you would never notice a pro do unless a caster or a pro told you directly" where you'd leave certain minions alive during a push to time them so they would be destroying a tower or inhib and the enemy team would be pressured to clean that up but that would mean they miss out on contesting your team at baron. That's not a thing anymore. Waveclear is so abundant that all that happens to waves is they get blasted when the enemy isn't there and then you move on. Also the minion %dmg bonus +%dmg reduction vs other minions also made it impossible to control waves and win the global map strategy game as well.

Wards is pretty obvious. Vision wars are just dead. You buy 1-2 control wards and that's all there is to contribute to it. Sneaking objectives is no longer a thing; they always know when you're doing them. The only way to control an objective is by just having the objectively stronger team so your opponent chooses not to fight you.

Also because towers are so useless now and damage is so high, ganks are no longer a strategic choice. You no longer think "hey this lane is overextending which is way easier than this lane that isn't". You just think "hey there's a lane opponent who exists, let's force a kill on him regardless of what he does or where he positioned". And even worse is that snowballing means some champions become unstoppable because with just a 1 kill lead they gain enough to 1vs2 and their lane opponent can no longer lane. period. even under their own tower.

AirKingNeo3 votes
  1. NEVER LINK HASHINSHIN IF YOU WANT TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY

"Lol, I dislike this person, therefore, you can't cite him even if he's correct."

  1. Is the game too snowbally?

...no-ish

The op didn't address it, but jungler deciding lanes is snowbally.

  1. Idk how the complexity of a champion would "remove the need for macro". Macro play is a fundamental concept. You don't just "forgo" needing macro play.

because Zoe just puts down that much map pressure as a champion. Same for Kai'sa if your team has CC because of her passive applying on ally CC.

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

"Lol, I dislike this person, therefore, you can't cite him even if he's correct."

A whiny ass clock that feeds and does Baron solo while heating up food in another room to grief his team can be right twice a day, but I wouldn't trust it.

The op didn't address it, but jungler deciding lanes is snowbally.

Like I said

The game CAN be. It's supposed to be able to be. It's not supposed to ALWAYS be and it's not supposed to NEVER be snowbally. Stopping or starting a snowball is a form of skill expression in League.

because Zoe just puts down that much map pressure as a champion. Same for Kai'sa if your team has CC because of her passive applying on ally CC.

Map pressure IS MACRO PLAY.

Who the fuck would you find going "Oh man, Shen and Twisted Fate are both teleporting into fights all the time AnD thAT maP prEssURe is RuinINg mY maCRo plAY"?

AirKingNeo2 votes

A whiny ass clock that feeds and does Baron solo while heating up food in another room to grief his team can be right twice a day, but I wouldn't trust it.

lol clock meme

lol not realizing that his team was farming jungle instead of helping him baron

Now, thinking that a single mistake in life somehow invalidates everything someone says, even if fundamentally correct and/or perfectly agreeable? That's a small brain idea.

A big brain idea is realizing the faults of people while also being able to consider intelligence from them.

Who the fuck would you find going "Oh man, Shen and Twisted Fate are both teleporting into fights all the time AnD thAT maP prEssURe is RuinINg mY maCRo plAY"?

Because those are 1.5 minute or more cooldown ultimates? Zoe's are 2-3 abilities with cooldowns of 15 seconds or less. Plus Shen and TF have inherently weak laning or some other downside to compensate for their ultimates, where Zoe gets a strong laning and strong escape tool (her W).

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

lol clock meme

lol not realizing that his team was farming jungle instead of helping him baron

HE WAS FUCKING AFK. WHO DOES BARON WHILE AFK?

Now, thinking that a single mistake in life somehow invalidates everything someone says, even if fundamentally correct and/or perfectly agreeable? That's a small brain idea.

How are you going to "lol" at a meme (which was actually an ANALOGY, not a meme) and then come in here with this "big brain/small brain" shit?

A big brain idea is realizing the faults of people while also being able to consider intelligence from them.

Has Hashinshin ever stopped being a dingus that blames everything but himself whenever his 1-note "strategy" of "running his champion into the enemy top laner every chance he gets" doesn't work? No?

So why would I trust the analysis of someone that does nothing but blame every other fucking thing except what he specializes in? He'll never say "Nerf Jax". He'll never say "Nerf Conqueror". He'll never say anything that actively goes against himself. He's a man baby with mechanics.

Because those are 1.5 minute or more cooldown ultimates? Zoe's are 2-3 abilities with cooldowns of 15 seconds or less. Plus Shen and TF have inherently weak laning or some other downside to compensate for their ultimates, where Zoe gets a strong laning and strong escape tool (her W).

The types of people that think Zoe's MS boost off a W is a "strong escape tool" are the types of people that seriously need to stop playing whatever they're playing and actually play League of Legends before complaining about League of Legends.

That aside, there's plenty of ways to pressure the map on a macro scale. Kill threat from out of sight is one, but there's plenty, and Zoe's not the only one that can threaten kills from out of vision. That's what we have bushes and de-warding tools for.

AirKingNeo2 votes

Has Hashinshin ever stopped being a dingus that blames everything but himself whenever his 1-note "strategy" of "running his champion into the enemy top laner every chance he gets" doesn't work? No?

What does that have to do with the example the OP gave being correct or incorrect? It affects his credibility, but he's still a consistent high diamond-low master player who's ended in challenger in 5 seasons.

So why would I trust the analysis of someone that does nothing but blame every other fucking thing except what he specializes in? He'll never say "Nerf Jax". He'll never say "Nerf Conqueror". He'll never say anything that actively goes against himself. He's a man baby with mechanics.

Conqueror isn't overpowered to need nerfs. There's no statistics showing it is overpowered and the rune see's little to no competitive play, except on Yasuo and Darius (who are both rarely picked anyways). He acknowledges why they both use it well. Irelia is picked in competitive because her triple Q combo, not Conqueror. Camille uses PtA.

With that in mind, why should he say "nerf conqueror" if Conqueror doesn't need nerfs?

Same with Jax. Last time Jax was overpowered was start of season 6, where he does address that Jax is getting nerfs and how they could nerf him. Hasn't been OP since and hasn't seen much use in competitive (and when he does, he usually fades out pretty quickly), so why should he say "nerf Jax"?

The types of people that think Zoe's MS boost off a W is a "strong escape tool" are the types of people that seriously need to stop playing whatever they're playing and actually play League of Legends before complaining about League of Legends.

extra flash/heal speed up/whatever item drop that gives speed or slows enemy/implying ghost is a thing

That aside, there's plenty of ways to pressure the map on a macro scale. Kill threat from out of sight is one, but there's plenty, and Zoe's not the only one that can threaten kills from out of vision. That's what we have bushes and de-warding tools for.

and yet Zoe does these things the easiest, which is the problem. She doesn't have trade offs for doing it and does it the best. That's why she's 100% pick or ban competitively.

IainG101 votes

I HATE upvoting you, but gods damn you have a point

AirKingNeo1 votes

Half my posts are usually me citing evidence or asking people to cite evidence to their outrageous claim.

Any reasonable person should upvote that. Posts that make claims without evidence shouldn't be upvoted.

Selec8 votes

+10 base amor and MR for every champion in the game.

Jeddite8 votes

"WE TOOK OUT SOME ITEMS THAT WERENT PURCHASED EVERY GAME IN LOL E$PORTS LOL AND ADDED A NEW DAMAGE ITEM THAT WILL BE PURCHASED IN EVERY LOL E$PORT$ LOL GAME. SO WHAT IF WE DONT KNOW HOW THIS WILL IMPACT THE UPCOMING SEASON. ALSO NEW RUNES AND MASTERIES AND SH!T YO -- BECAUSE CHANGE IS GOOD, JUST ASK KHA'ZIX LOL"

Every season since LOL E$PORT$ LOL became a thing

... also, please stream more when I'm off work, HD.

Frosted Tips7 votes

But TP was nerfed because it actually did not incentivise macro desicion making. I was either to back to lane to not lose out on gold and exp or to bot for first tower and then after that just every tp on the fight. No more thinking about wave management or backdoor potential because every took tp.

Minimac20006 votes

{quoted}

But TP was nerfed because it actually did not incentivise macro desicion making. I was either to back to lane to not lose out on gold and exp or to bot for first tower and then after that just every tp on the fight. No more thinking about wave management or backdoor potential because every took tp.

Debatable point, I see where you're coming from but many believe that everyone taking tp was caused by ignite just being so much better than every defensive option that adcs would take tp to not get as far behind from (nearly) inevitable deaths

Frosted Tips4 votes

I really dont think it is debatable. 3-4 people per team were taking TP per team. It was because TP was way too strong and also made macro play very bianary.

Now a debatable statement which I personally believe is that if TP was removed the game would be easier to balance and for the most part add alot more importance to both micro and macro play.

Minimac20007 votes

{quoted}

I really dont think it is debatable. 3-4 people per team were taking TP per team. It was because TP was way too strong and also made macro play very bianary.

Now a debatable statement which I personally believe is that if TP was removed the game would be easier to balance and for the most part add alot more importance to both micro and macro play.

It's had the highest cd of any summoner for ages and it's only increasing. Pretty sure it's just defensive options being a joke. Also pretty sure that's not even close to debatable. Removing tp from the game would kill split pushing dead. Every non teamfight champ would drop exponentially in viability as split pushing anywhere useful would be a free enemy baron at every instance of the game past 20 min. Sorry but that's why tp is needed macro play doesn't function without it

Minimac20002 votes

{quoted}

It's had the highest cd of any summoner for ages and it's only increasing. Pretty sure it's just defensive options being a joke. Also pretty sure that's not even close to debatable. Removing tp from the game would kill split pushing dead. Every non teamfight champ would drop exponentially in viability as split pushing anywhere useful would be a free enemy baron at every instance of the game past 20 min. Sorry but that's why tp is needed macro play doesn't function without it

Also 3 people per team were taking if you pick all losing match ups into a team where 4 enemies are taking ignite Also 4 tp's on a team doesn't happen Supports don't take tp bc their gold/xp (being there for waves) don't matter nearly as much

Frosted Tips2 votes

Why do you think no TP equals no split push or free baron for other team right now many of my games will have no TP and split push is stronger than ever because either the team has to walk or recall to respond to the split or make a play. Splitting while baron is up forces the enemy to choose baron or you but your team should be prepared for that and contest the barom from a safe distance or to stop the push the enemies go for 5v4. Unless the jungler shows bot baron is not free to take amd even then 4v5 could get wiped.

Minimac20002 votes

{quoted}

Why do you think no TP equals no split push or free baron for other team right now many of my games will have no TP and split push is stronger than ever because either the team has to walk or recall to respond to the split or make a play. Splitting while baron is up forces the enemy to choose baron or you but your team should be prepared for that and contest the barom from a safe distance or to stop the push the enemies go for 5v4. Unless the jungler shows bot baron is not free to take amd even then 4v5 could get wiped.

Homeguards and especially that + baron recall make splitting really really easy to stop and either rushing baron or simply engaging the easy 4v5, wiping bc teamfights are nearly instant, and taking then backing to stop one guy easiest thing ever. The entire reason splitting works is that either the enemy can't send one person to deal with you or you can get objectives while your team stalls and doesn't fight unless you can join. With no TP there's no if, you can't join the fight so the 5 just engage risk free on the 4 every time

3TWarrior1 votes

TP wasn't changed in any way, it has never been changed in any significant way and always receives constant nerfs

the only time it has ever been overpowered is when either towers are too weak/damage is too high (which players have complained about for seasons) or when there is a tank meta because they can survive a tower's damage and rush-push objectives

so yes, it's "too strong" but not on its own...it's the underlying problems of the game that make it "strong"

Frosted Tips1 votes

It is too strong because it offers too much.

So you take a combat summoner to have an advantage in lane, right. Well actually TP is more of a lane advantage because either you survive the opponents all in or you die to it so if you die they get 300 gold and push in wave giving let's say another 200 gold and some exp advantage. Well because you have TP you negate most if not all of the minion push advantage they should of had so they on average just get the 300 gold advantage.

Now if you don't die which will happen alot you both trade summoners and you back and then TP back to lane losing nothing, but the opponent has 2 options stay with under 100% with less items or back and lose exp and gold advantage to you. That in itself is already strong as a summoner spell. Now adding that you can go effect the rest of the map is ridiculous.

And the rest of what I said about the game being bianary in Macro play when TP is any stronger than it is now is not debatable because we as a community saw it when TP was taken on 3-4 members per team.

3TWarrior1 votes

on average, if you died every 5 minutes, teleport would cost your opponent 60 gold per 5 minutes... if your opponent was really on point and had the waveclearing potential to get 2 waves in the full minute you might be dead and walking back to lane at level 10, that is up to 240 gold, however, you are already set behind a significant pace just for the death for the sake of this though, it is unlikely that your opponent would have killed y ou while you have a full minion wave for them to dispose of, so at level 10, you would lose 120 for the full wave they get while y ou are not there

instead, it costs the user either all of their lane pressure, their utility, some of their limited healing, or really, a lot given there are only two summoner slots

say you take teleport ignite? You then have no flash for escapes or surprise engages, no heal for if things go bad in the lane or as a comeback in a team fight, no exhaust to peel an assassin off of you, etc

you are also still down by the 300 gold if your opponent kept an even pace with you for CS simply because they killed you and unless they snowball you like crazy, a second death in 10 minutes is still a lead of 525 gold...

Frosted Tips1 votes

All of the stats you just gave sounds like you are arguing for my side. 300 gold per kill is not enough. If you die you should lose significant exp and pressure yet you dont with TP. Champion kills really are not that good anymore. It just doesn't give the advantage it should.

Fondling Gems6 votes

The thing that made me want to play League more than Dota 2 when I started was because Dota had too much focus on Macro play and game pacing was a bit long for my tastes.

Since about season 5 League has minimized those two things so hard that Dota is now closer to what I want than League is. I would rather risk getting pulled into an hour and a half long game when ~1 hour is my ideal max than play a 20-30 minute brawl. The main reason I haven't straight up quit league is because my friends still want to play, and we all play each other's games.

WoodenCreature4 votes

Hashinshin's rants aren't a good proof for any point. He sometimes has good ideas but they are in the shade of his crying ass when he thinks his jax is the best champion and any other champs that beat jax should be weaker than him.

haaaaaaalp5 votes

{quoted}

Hashinshin's rants aren't a good proof for any point. He sometimes has good ideas but they are in the shade of his crying ass when he thinks his jax is the best champion and any other champs that beat jax should be weaker than him.

He rants about so much stuff that some of his videos are bound to actually make some good points. When he does, why not use those videos?

Napoleon34 votes

i am still missing season 4 and 5 i mean league was so good those days funny to play with counterplay and noone flamed even if the game is with feed enemys or something else also now the most games ends at 20 minits but at those seasons it was diferent and also every champion was balanced and fair to play against or fun to play with and got some counterplay styles but now im just borrend playing league thats why i stopped playing it for a while but i still miss the old league thats why i still play league but not so much but honestly now in my opinion league is just so unfair and unfun to play at the same time. also all my friends are gone from season 4 5 and 6 and stopped playing league i guess i should do the same .

Leto GT3 votes

They over-rewarded early advantage. Translate to easily into big avantage.

HaIlMonitor2 votes

It could be argued that is because this game we evolved from an RTS game. In most large RTS games your first 10-15 minutes of the match is the most important because setting up proper macro based off the info you scout will cause you to have more resources then your opponent.

I can see the over-rewarded comment, but then if you look at last season and even earlier this season when tanks/enchanters were still really strong in pro matches teams would be like 5k gold behind, but could just stall out until their comp just was stronger because they had late game champs which in my opinion is bad design. Why pick a lane bully if you just fall off at 20 minutes and that tank you took first tower from and killed 3 times is now way better in team fights?

I don't mind if scaling champs win after not bleeding out to much, but in the past even the game had its flaws. I would say now the two biggest flaws are bot tower being weaker, and the overwhelming amount of global gold. Even shutdown gold can be dumb because if you 1v2 outplay and your laner kills you he gets a massive stack and might come back even anyways.

Leto GT4 votes

I believe that if a team succeed in stalling out, it means that they win the macro play. Early champions and assassins have always been very succesful in soloQ but rarely in pro play. One's may say it's because they're better but I believe it's rather because proplay is very polished into playing very safe. OP is right when saying that ppl don't know how to open the map anymore but it's because they don't need to anymore and I can safely say that it's totaly due the polished proplay safe style.

History shows clearly that they always prefer to go for a lategame composition even now. This won't change unless Riot makes decisive changes that force them to play differently. There has been a lot of changes to make them stop stalling out such as scuttles, rifts, baron and drakes, tower and nerfs. It's all directed into forcing proplay to stop playing safe and get early advantage. Then they increased damage in order to make those move easier to get rewarded from. They buffed lane bully champions and nerfed jungle aswell while nerfing tanks and ADC. Even with that being implemented proplay still prefered to stall out so they're now buffing champions that have the ability to break the stall while nerfing those who can help with it - proplay-wise. Rengar, khazix and so on. Champions that can come from nowhere and delete one target.

Now, the consequences on soloQ were huge. It's dumb to expect an unorganized environment such as soloQ to work like a organized environment. Stuff that were considered being toxic even in the earliest season are now META or close to it. Nobody likes to be oneshot from nowhere, then lose the lane + giving free rift or free scuttle for enemy jungler + losing one or two turrets just because you did one mistake.

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