So they've reverted Kog'maw and several of the Assassins....

The Ecdysiast·Aug 17, 2018·3 votes·1,530 views

Am I the only one hoping a few Mages that were fucked over by the class updates get the same treatment?

In particular: Malzahar, who lost his unique ability to waveclear and roam, and Mordekaiser, who was unfairly put into a different class and then nerfed into oblivion because in changing one of his core abilities they made it impossible to balance (oddly enough also lost his strong ability to waveclear).

Please discuss. Do you agree, disagree? Is Malzahar okay being cautiously balanced due to his possibility as a support? Is Mordekaiser alright having to focus his W first, and be near a minion/ally to get the damage from his W? Are there any other champions you think were fucked over by their class update?

(That said, I much preferred old Zac, Maokai, and Sejuani, but I doubt they'd revert those)

31 Comments

Madsin25Aug 17, 20185 votes

Pretty sure the mage update was just straight buffs across the board?

Are we forgetting how ridiculously busted malzahar was when he was first changed?

The EcdysiastAug 17, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Pretty sure the mage update was just straight buffs across the board?

Are we forgetting how ridiculously busted malzahar was when he was first changed?

Well he and Mord are in the same boat there. They were both insanely powerful when they first changed, but have since been fucked over because the changes made them harder to balance. Just like Kog'maw would've been if they'd not gone with reverting him, and just as Ryze is right now.

I'm glad you're discussing, but I wanna note that the boards guidelines say to use votes to encourage discussion, not to show your agreement. If something is poorly written or contains false information, then downvote it. If it's good enough to comment on and discuss, upvote it. Just as I'll do to your comment since it allowed me to explain further.

Frosted TipsAug 17, 20182 votes

First Mordekaiser is not nerfed to oblivion he just has so many bugs that they decided to give up on him. I believe meddler said he is getting reworked next year because fixing the bugs would be much harder and would probably cause more problems than he already has.

Old Sejuani was so unhealthy. Champions don't just get changed because they are seen as boring it is usually because they are unhealthy.

The EcdysiastAug 17, 20181 votes

{quoted}

First Mordekaiser is not nerfed to oblivion he just has so many bugs that they decided to give up on him. I believe meddler said he is getting reworked next year because fixing the bugs would be much harder and would probably cause more problems than he already has.

Old Sejuani was so unhealthy. Champions don't just get changed because they are seen as boring it is usually because they are unhealthy.

I can think of only two bugs Mordekaiser has, neither of which effect his normal buildpath. His Q ignores Titanic Hydra's AA reset, and also makes Static Shyv +RFC fire but cancel the initial AA command. And of course the usual bugs that come with having a large pet. Aaaaand his Q was in fact nerfed into oblivion, because the difference between doubling the second attack's damage and matching it was a hell of a lot.

Old Sejuani was only unhealthy when she was the best abuser of Cinderhulk. Her, Mao, and Zac should not have been changed at the same time that most defense items were nerfed against the opposite damage type, because their defense was a major reason they were stronger.

Frosted TipsAug 17, 20184 votes

Here is a list isn't completely up to date but if you want to spend some time looking at each patch and see that maybe 10% of these have been looked into by Riot.

Sejuani had the most broken ultimate in the game. The rest of her kit was pretty trash just because her ult was worth other champions full kits. League will never see something that ridiculous ever again.

The EcdysiastAug 18, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Here is a list isn't completely up to date but if you want to spend some time looking at each patch and see that maybe 10% of these have been looked into by Riot.

Sejuani had the most broken ultimate in the game. The rest of her kit was pretty trash just because her ult was worth other champions full kits. League will never see something that ridiculous ever again.

Well thank you very much. The other person who responded didn't actually say anything. I thought it was pretty clear I wanted you to tell me the other bugs. I thought it was bad enough you just weren't able to go AD. Never imagined he'd be THIS terrible a state. That's more bugs than Azir and Quinn ever had, combined.

And... I don't think that's true of Sejuani in the slightest. It was essentially a skillshot version of Leona's ultimate. To say it was the strongest in the game would imply the same of Leona's. And while they are strong abilities, they're not the strongest. There's plenty of Tenacity available, which is often why higher elo and professional play favors knockups over stuns.

Frosted TipsAug 18, 20181 votes

It was much closer to a stun version of Malphite ult than leona ult. It was fast and had a large hit box. The aoe stun after the ability landed was huge and it stuck ed people for 1.75 seconds after a nerf from 2 seconds. Malphite ult knocks up for 1.5 seconds so even with 30% which I believe was the most people would get because Zephyr was awful. The ult would be slightly less duration stun than Malphite ult. Compared to Malphite ult you dont have to put yourself in danger and it had a wider aoe. It was insanely powerful. Leona is like a tini tiny version were the entire hit box including the slowing zone of leona's ult was smaller than the stun portion of sejuanis. And while I'm at it Malphite ult is too strong also. It is 90% of his kits power and needs to be changed so malphite can be more than an ult bot.

The EcdysiastAug 18, 20181 votes

{quoted}

It was much closer to a stun version of Malphite ult than leona ult. It was fast and had a large hit box. The aoe stun after the ability landed was huge and it stuck ed people for 1.75 seconds after a nerf from 2 seconds. Malphite ult knocks up for 1.5 seconds so even with 30% which I believe was the most people would get because Zephyr was awful. The ult would be slightly less duration stun than Malphite ult. Compared to Malphite ult you dont have to put yourself in danger and it had a wider aoe. It was insanely powerful. Leona is like a tini tiny version were the entire hit box including the slowing zone of leona's ult was smaller than the stun portion of sejuanis. And while I'm at it Malphite ult is too strong also. It is 90% of his kits power and needs to be changed so malphite can be more than an ult bot.

You say large, but it wasn't any bigger than Malphite, and only beat Leona's in linear range by 100. The radius could easily have been reduced. Making the stun solely single-target was an unfair nerf for skilled players who timed it correctly. And worse yet, making it impossible to stun a person you've recently hit with E or R with the other one is just ridiculous.

And yeah, Malphite's needed a rework for quite some time.

Frosted TipsAug 18, 20181 votes

I'm pretty sure the hit box was smaller than Malphite ult but the explosion radius was larger but I could be wrong they may have been the same size and yes her rework isn't perfect but it is way better than reverting her.

SangreDeNocheAug 18, 20182 votes

{quoted} League will never see something that ridiculous ever again.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

OH- You're serious?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

FyreWallAug 17, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Uber Deer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BNxMJFMT,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-08-17T21:22:07.030+0000)

I can think of only two bugs Mordekaiser has,

S T O P

Beacon AcademyAug 18, 20182 votes

I'm starting to think people have forgotten what Malzahar did...

Current Malzahar pushes minions faster than old Malzahar, but thats it.

Old Malzahar pushed towers harder, in other words actually punished roaming and forced snowbally roam champions to stay around or lose their tower.

I want a revert as much as the next person buit... I'm starting to grow tired of revert advocating threads that don't acknowledge the strengths of the current Malzahar...

It makes the OP sound ridiculous and super biased, especially since people have more evidence now-a-days on current Malzahar rather than records of the old one.

The EcdysiastAug 18, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Beacon Academy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BNxMJFMT,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-08-18T08:31:09.613+0000)

I'm starting to think people have forgotten what Malzahar did...

Current Malzahar pushes minions faster than old Malzahar, but thats it.

Old Malzahar pushed towers harder, in other words actually punished roaming and forced snowbally roam champions to stay around or lose their tower.

I want a revert as much as the next person buit... I'm starting to grow tired of revert advocating threads that don't acknowledge the strengths of the current Malzahar...

It makes the OP sound ridiculous and super biased, especially since people have more evidence now-a-days on current Malzahar rather than records of the old one.

So what's your point? You said exactly what I did, that new Malz lacks the main strength of old Malz. (though you're wrong about him pushing minions faster, since he needs to use his Q for it unlike old Malz)

Beacon AcademyAug 18, 20181 votes

E was not that strong until lv 7 because you needed items and ranks on E for Flat mana refund increase.

And even then it could only kill casters on its own

New Malzahar can push at level 3-5 with well timed Qs and minions

The EcdysiastAug 18, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Beacon Academy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BNxMJFMT,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2018-08-18T21:38:54.364+0000)

E was not that strong until lv 7 because you needed items and ranks on E for Flat mana refund increase.

And even then it could only kill casters on its own

New Malzahar can push at level 3-5 with well timed Qs and minions

Which... was exactly my point. You didn't need all three abilities before. But W was a much, much better ability.

Beacon AcademyAug 19, 20181 votes

I'm not arguing that new Malzahar > old Malzahar

I actually prefer old Malzahar for his flexibility and optional builds.

I just don't like it when people make threads saying old Malz was better simply because they don't want to acknowledge new Malzahar's strengths.

New Malzahar literally has resets and minion bonus damage and you're acting like old Malzahar can outpush that at the same levels

The EcdysiastAug 19, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Beacon Academy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BNxMJFMT,comment-id=00040000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-19T02:26:04.831+0000)

I'm not arguing that new Malzahar > old Malzahar

I actually prefer old Malzahar for his flexibility and optional builds.

I just don't like it when people make threads saying old Malz was better simply because they don't want to acknowledge new Malzahar's strengths.

New Malzahar literally has resets and minion bonus damage and you're acting like old Malzahar can outpush that at the same levels

I wasn't saying he doesn't have his own strengths. Same as I wasn't saying Mordekaiser is completely lacking, either.

However, Malefic Visions does the exact same amount of damage it used to, but for some reason the wiki decided to mark it previously as the damage per half second and now shows the total. But they're same amount. And it also reset as well. So claiming that it's any different is false. And not only was his W on par with the current voidlings, but unlike them, the enemies didn't have the option to literally kill the source of damage. Plus, there's the good things you also mentioned, what with the flexibility of his build that is no longer available.

I never once disregarded new Malz's strengths, nor even mentioned them. His passive is objectively better now. There's no denying that. But the fact he still can clear waves is overshadowed by the fact he can no longer do it uncontested and walk away-- and that the two abilities he has left afterwards are both a lot weaker than before.

Beacon AcademyAug 19, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Uber Deer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BNxMJFMT,comment-id=000400000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-19T03:59:53.956+0000)

he can no longer do it uncontested and walk away

He couldn't do that till late game
That picture is one of the reasons why people think old Malzahar was just as toxic

Why would you even try to argue that a low interaction clear is what people who won't be playing old Malzahar want to face???

That is an absolutely stupid way to argue for a revert.

The EcdysiastAug 19, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Beacon Academy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BNxMJFMT,comment-id=0004000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-19T04:34:53.662+0000)

He couldn't do that till late game

That picture is one of the reasons why people think old Malzahar was just as toxic

Why would you even try to argue that a low interaction clear is what people who won't be playing old Malzahar want to face???

That is an absolutely stupid way to argue for a revert.

It's not about the people playing against him. They weren't struggling against him before, so your claim that it would matter to them doesn't hold its own.

Beacon AcademyAug 19, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Uber Deer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BNxMJFMT,comment-id=00040000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-19T05:24:02.748+0000)

It's not about the people playing against him.

That right there is why you shouldn't be the one arguing for Malzahar's rework.

If people think old Malzahar's kit is toxic and uninteractive, no one will want him back.

And statements like "being able to set up his abilities and walk away"

#Don't help and cement the idea that Malzahar was an uninteractive fuck.

Is that what you fucking want?

The EcdysiastAug 19, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Beacon Academy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BNxMJFMT,comment-id=000400000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-19T07:00:06.207+0000)

That right there is why you shouldn't be the one arguing for Malzahar's rework.

If people think old Malzahar's kit is toxic and uninteractive, no one will want him back.

And statements like "being able to set up his abilities and walk away"

#Don't help and cement the idea that Malzahar was an uninteractive fuck.

Is that what you fucking want?

No, you're taking it somewhere that my comment doesn't imply. In fact, you did the bullshit thing of specifically cropping out my fucking explanation. Why be like that? Just because your argument doesn't work, you're going to pretend I didn't explain myself? That's fucking sad.

Beacon AcademyAug 19, 20181 votes

"So what's your point? You said exactly what I did, that new Malz lacks the main strength of old Malz. (though you're wrong about him pushing minions faster, since he needs to use his Q for it unlike old Malz"

"Well, no he doesn't push harder, then. The fact is, IF old Malz used all his abilities, it would've been harder and faster because his Q was a hell of a lot more powerful. But not only did he not need to to clear waves, he then had his more powerful Q to hit the enemy with"

"Not as strong as before, and particularly they removed his main strength of being able to set up his abilities and walk away."

"But the fact he still can clear waves is overshadowed by the fact he can no longer do it uncontested and walk away"

There is no fucking implication.

You basically want to just use E to clear and be able to walk away or Q the opponent

Which is not what happened with Old Malzahar until around lv 7-9 (And even then he needed autos for the melees/cannon).

The OG Malzahar group is very small atm and making people think that old Malzahar was an uninteractive waveclear champion when he wasn't... isn't doing old Malz any favors

The EcdysiastAug 19, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Beacon Academy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BNxMJFMT,comment-id=00040000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-19T09:30:45.741+0000)

"So what's your point? You said exactly what I did, that new Malz lacks the main strength of old Malz. (though you're wrong about him pushing minions faster, since he needs to use his Q for it unlike old Malz"

"Well, no he doesn't push harder, then. The fact is, IF old Malz used all his abilities, it would've been harder and faster because his Q was a hell of a lot more powerful. But not only did he not need to to clear waves, he then had his more powerful Q to hit the enemy with"

"Not as strong as before, and particularly they removed his main strength of being able to set up his abilities and walk away."

"But the fact he still can clear waves is overshadowed by the fact he can no longer do it uncontested and walk away"

There is no fucking implication.

You basically want to just use E to clear and be able to walk away or Q the opponent

Which is not what happened with Old Malzahar until around lv 7-9 (And even then he needed autos for the melees/cannon).

Now hold on. You know so little about old Malz, that you're forgetting what his W even did? Wow.

Beacon AcademyAug 19, 20181 votes

W is a pool that provided a nice amount of near instant poke to enemy champions if they went into the minion wave

I personally went R>E>W>Q before the rework.

But I only specifically used it early lane to lower minion health only when the enmy champion was nearby to slowly poke them down for the lv 6 or pre-lv 6 Voidling all-in.

Otherwise it cost too much Mana to use it for only one reason.

Or did you forget about that cost?

VoraciousXAug 17, 20181 votes

I sure as hell don't want Malzahar throwing an E on me and losing half my health just for taking a ranged targeted ability to the face.

The EcdysiastAug 17, 20182 votes

{quoted}

I sure as hell don't want Malzahar throwing an E on me and losing half my health just for taking a ranged targeted ability to the face.

Of course I don't mean with zero adjustment ever again afterwards. That'd be ridiculous.

VanëssaAug 17, 20181 votes

Malzahar still can push like hell.

The EcdysiastAug 18, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Malzahar still can push like hell.

Not as strong as before, and particularly they removed his main strength of being able to set up his abilities and walk away. My point for both cases, since technically Mordekaiser "can" push still as well, is that they're nowhere near as good at it as before.

StephenizgodAug 19, 20181 votes

New Malzahar pushes harder and faster than Old Malzahar, but it requires all of his abilities. Now that his passive is pretty much useless in 90% of scenarios, him pushing that hard just further exacerbates his core weakness of having 0 mobility and no hard cc (his silence doesn't stop them from coming at him and his ult is a suppression that locks him in place, no good at running). So New Malz is just bad, feels bad to play and is no fun to play against.

They need to revert to Old Malzahar then start balancing around that kit. Otherwise Malzahar is going to need a completely new rework that hopefully hits close to the mark.

The EcdysiastAug 19, 20181 votes

{quoted}

New Malzahar pushes harder and faster than Old Malzahar, but it requires all of his abilities. Now that his passive is pretty much useless in 90% of scenarios, him pushing that hard just further exacerbates his core weakness of having 0 mobility and no hard cc (his silence doesn't stop them from coming at him and his ult is a suppression that locks him in place, no good at running). So New Malz is just bad, feels bad to play and is no fun to play against.

They need to revert to Old Malzahar then start balancing around that kit. Otherwise Malzahar is going to need a completely new rework that hopefully hits close to the mark.

Well, no he doesn't push harder, then. The fact is, IF old Malz used all his abilities, it would've been harder and faster because his Q was a hell of a lot more powerful. But not only did he not need to to clear waves, he then had his more powerful Q to hit the enemy with.

But you're right. New Malz feels bad, particularly because the strength of still having your Q after clearing a wave was replaced with his new passive, which can be taken down with an auto attack.

I wasn't saying they should JUST revert him to old Malz and never touch him again, duh. Obviously they'd revert and then adjust.

StephenizgodAug 19, 20181 votes

Old couldn't summon as many voidlings and current voidlings do 300% dmg to minions affected by his E, and his Q resets his E. So he can clear a wave of minions very quickly right now. Old Malzahar could do it, but it would be several rotations and he would be oom after the first couple waves. So for the mana cost and number of abilities used, Current Malz pushes way harder and he was basically reworked to do exactly that.

The benefit of Old Malzahar was his E was way stronger meaning you didn't have to use more than one ability, you could just E and then AA the minions. So you still had your Q and W to poke or prevent an engage.