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@Meddler you talked about making melees viable Botlane

Ahristocats··31 votes·2,656 views

Ghostcrawler talked about Botlane Diversity in his last Q/A https://i.gyazo.com/ab6a3ce8a5c053729ae70604d891ffcc.png

{quoted}

We'd like to get melee champs into bot someday too. That's a much bigger task than getting mages in though, given mages tend to be closer in functionality to marksmen to begin with.

Now is the best time to make it happen With the new runes system you get to change completly the meta in favor of a refreshing game+diversity+more strategy

Marksmen are played constantly because of their monstrous poke that takes ages to get countered by all-in as in duolane you get lvl 3 after 3 min/5 min, in the meantime they will poke so hard that if you ever get lvl 3 without dying you won't be able to fight anymore

Sieging is not a problem i can assure you that. As an ADC Darius player i'm able to siege with a Q to prepare item 3078 proc, then AA+AA again+W to proc triforce again and the tower lost 50% of its hp.

https://i.gyazo.com/c5158e0c81215ce68b8021ce456e7a15.jpg

take a look a this, an old screenshot of a game in master tier where i won without a ranged champion in the my team (minus nami) The real problem THE ONLY PROBLEM is laning against marksmen in duolane where we get less xp

So how is this related to runes?

you get to be able to change completly the facts with the new runes don't give to marksmen a huge poke tool like AD/AS runes give to melee something to survive against ranged poke like more hp regen if there is an ally around you

make runes interacting with allies just like the shielding keystone i'm happy about this keystone SO MUCH as we will be able to reduce ranged poke done by marksmen by a lot

please meddler, consider your changes to a more diverse botlane if you do it we will be able to play Darius Gangplank Yasuo Tryndamere Jax Aatrox XinZhao Mordekaiser without fearing the lack of a REAL frontline that are tanks bringing the initiation and cc that melee carries need to win

94 Comments

Starcraft243ver7 votes

The problem is most marksmen are not that great in solo lanes, so if we put more darius and yasuo in botlane, it's totaly against the game's diversity.

I see enough darius in my games and I dont really want to also see darius botlane becoming meta.

Mordepool21 votes

Jungle : kindred. Graves. Toplane: vayne, Quinn Midlane: ezreal.

Also I'd like to point out that having a balanced melee vs ranged Botlane is the long term intended goal. Which will increase diversity in the botlane not hamper it

Ahristocats16 votes

you forgot a lot of solo lane adcs in your list mid: corki(atm trash and needs buffs) lucian varus and possibly jhin jungle: twitch

Skins Project2 votes

I'd argue ez mid is more likely to be ap and not an "adc" or "marksman"

Like the ones Janna X Rubick Mentioned down below ^^

Tobias Brackner2 votes

There is nothing stopping an Ez in mid lane from building AD.

Cosmic Warper1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tobias Brackner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BL70oABv,comment-id=0000000000010000,timestamp=2017-06-01T17:36:26.509+0000)

There is nothing stopping an Ez in mid lane from building AD.

garbage waveclear and no utility

Champion Skin3 votes

Ehh.... and in what way does AP Ezeral have waveclear or utility? I don't see AP Ezeral as having more waveclear or utility... maybe it is just me not seeing it?

After all his W doesn't hit minions and his only other AoE ability is his ultimate but that has a bit too long of a cooldown to be reliable waveclear....

So I don't think garbage waveclear and no utility are good reasons for Ezeral to build AP instead of AD when going mid

Cosmic Warper2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Champion Skin,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BL70oABv,comment-id=000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2017-06-01T20:19:21.531+0000)

Ehh.... and in what way does AP Ezeral have waveclear or utility? I don't see AP Ezeral as having more waveclear or utility... maybe it is just me not seeing it?

After all his W doesn't hit minions and his only other AoE ability is his ultimate but that has a bit too long of a cooldown to be reliable waveclear....

So I don't think garbage waveclear and no utility are good reasons for Ezeral to build AP instead of AD when going mid

Oh i was just talking about ezreal mid in general, not a specific build. He's garbage in mid lane period

Tobias Brackner1 votes

He's not garbage at all. It's definitely a more aggressive lane that looks for kills and pressure but definitely not garbage.

AirKingNeo2 votes

Vayne isn't a top laner.

LordGeovanni7 votes

Look at this blessed sheilded child. I wouldnt wish those times on you its better if you dont know.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

According to the new system, Quinn and Graves arent even counted as Marksmen anymore, they simply don't work according to the same rules so now they are just "unique"

Midlane Ez is garbage as long as he doesn't get to cheese someone.

Vayne Top.....does anyone even play that outside high plati/diamond to any success? I dont recall ever seeing it. And the risks are huge unless you counterpick with her too.

Kindred is garbage now, has been for like a year. To the point where she is getting a Shyv style rework.

So none of these are even terribly good, some are not even marksmen and others have been bad for ages ._.

Mordepool4 votes

My point (while it doesn't cover every marksman) still rings true. The introduction of melee carries being able to function in bot lane opens up more diversity. Which in turns allows riot to Retool or rebalance Marksman for different lanes. Marksman can be a viable strategy for counterpicks in other lanes or if you get counterpicked you can have a melee carry take the bad lane and still be able to contribute during the midgame

Thefrostyviking1 votes

Wouldn't those melee carries have to be reworked though? Along with serveral ADC's?

I mean, if some melee carries were pushed into working botlane then the early game weaker ADC's would cease to work there instead.

Mordepool1 votes

So you are saying champion select work have deeper strategic value?
I disagree that melee bot would completely push out weak early game marksman. All that would happen is force a priority support pick to protect them early game. Which turns it back into a skill match up

Sauceyapples1 votes

Wait im confused though. Doesn't having everyone able to play every lane defeat the point of diversity? ...it would mean everyone is the same...

If your reply is "I'm not saying every champ should play every lane, just that melees should be able to play adc's," then the whole 'champion select work have deeper strategic value' should be scrapped from your argument.

Mordepool1 votes

Lots of champions have duo roles twitch funtcions in the jungle as well as botlane. It simply an expansion on that working both ways for Toplane champs who are almost exclusively played top becoming. Top/bot. And marksman who are usually bot becoming bot/mid, bot/jungle, bot/top, bot/support.

Here's the thing so long as the Mentality is Marksman belong in botlane only, Diversity of picks will be low when the Mentality changes so will the diversity.

Sauceyapples1 votes

I'm still confused, because I never said that they shouldn't be in mid or top, or top in mid or bot. I was just saying that if anyone can play any role in any lane as any champion there wouldn't be diversity.

Mordepool1 votes

http://www.calculatorsoup.com/calculators/discretemathematics/combinations.php?n=130&r=10&action=solve

If you calculate for the possible Combinations of champions in a 5v5 blind pick match allowing for 130 champions to play any role whatsoever you end up with 266401260897200. Possible Combinations that's Diverse AF.

Sauceyapples1 votes

What im saying is theres nothing special about an ashe top. Because she can play any lane. Or a wukong bot... Cus he can be in any lane. Regardless of the number of match ups or possibilties. Diversity isn't just about playing every lane. It's about that players specialties aint it? I just dont see the difference i guess is what i mean. Whether ashe is top or mid or bot jungle or support. She's still ashe. I dont see a difference in the possibilities because regardless youre still playing ashe. I dont know if i got my point across at all.

Mordepool1 votes

OK I see what you are saying but I don't see the correlation to what I was originally trying to say in my 1st few posts and what you are saying

Thefrostyviking1 votes

I mean, some supports can by themselves turn a lane into pure misery for a ADC, some examples would be almost any AP supports against the immobile marksmen.

the "catchers" are also plenty good at that.

And it's exactly the immobile marksmen that tend to be mid/lategame focused, now if we add a melee with the tools to survive early dominant ADC's along with the bully supports and then i think the early weak ADC's would be really miserable ._.

Meanwhile the already strong lane bully ones like Lucian and Cait would hardly be affected and Xayah would probably become a goddess of murder via her E.

Draven might also enjoy that situation, he can bend over other ADC's with his speed and damage so i am unsure if any melee would be able to endure him ._.

Really, these kinds of things is why i think that making some melee strong enough to endure laning against marksmen would only serve to render the already passive ones like Ashe Twitch KogMaw orTristana even less relevant.

Altho Ashe even now is largely dependent on her support more than anything.

Vallalan3 votes

ezreal mid is actually trash. no wave clear. you only pick it cuz its safe and you really want to play an adc mid.

Venomar1 votes

AP is EZ Falls into the "not that great" category.

Graves was tuned for juggling after his rework.

Kindred was built from the ground up to jungle.

Quinn was reworked to be a top lane roaming burst carry.

Vayne top is a cheese pick, referencing that for the sake of this argument is about as valid as a discussion on AP ezreal as a viable support.

Lucian is a bad example because he's overturned and BotRK exists.

Varus isn't an argument anymore since his passive changes and Q nerfs, and lethality overall being meh. AP varus half ass works against pure counter match ups, but that can be said for literally every champion and who they counter.

I guess Twitch jungle is a thing but it's pretty substandard and falls in the "not that great" category.

Corki is in the dumpster atm, and only works becuase of his range with abilities. And again, he too was tuned for it after he made the switch.

Yes there are MARKSMAN/WOMEN who fulfill other roles but they're_DESIGNED_ too. You really can't take and AD carry designed for botlane and plug them Into another lane and always have a good time.

There's more that goes into a role and fulfillment of that role than "muh range". You guys know that too, you're just hard up on each other's dicks for the sake of the fotm circle Jerk.

Mordepool6 votes

{quoted}

AP is EZ Falls into the "not that great" category. I guess Twitch jungle is a thing but it's pretty substandard and falls in the "not that great" category.

So do most of the current Melee ADC. People still play them because they enjoy playing them. Not everything has to be about LCS big plays

Graves was tuned for juggling after his rework.

Kindred was built from the ground up to jungle.

Quinn was reworked to be a top lane roaming burst carry.

Ziggs just happened in botlane. Blew that shit up just because some guy didn't want to play a ADC because he was bored of them.

Vayne top is a cheese pick,

So it's a pick,an option that makes the game more diverse. Like say idk a Melee carry botlane. it's an option effective in certain situations.

Lucian is a bad example because he's overturned and BotRK exists.

Have some respect the man lost his wife.

Yes there are MARKSMAN/WOMEN who fulfill other roles but they're_DESIGNED_ too. You really can't take and AD carry designed for botlane and plug them Into another lane and(#always) have a good time.

I don't think they always should and if they did then they are clearly Overtuned. Comeback to a champ vs champ basis

There's more that goes into a role and fulfillment of that role than "muh range". You guys know that too, you're just hard up on each other's dicks for the sake of the fotm circle Jerk.

Seriously grow up. The rest of us are having an actual discussion

Ahristocats5 votes

{quoted}

The problem is most marksmen are not that great in solo lanes

Most is a big word, only late game marksmen are not great in solo lanes/jungle (minus kindred and twitch)

{quoted}

so if we put more darius and yasuo in botlane, it's totaly against the game's diversity.

it's not, Darius and Yasuo going botlane does not mean Marksmen can't go botlane

it's not exclusive, it's a choise depending on situations Vayne is a tank buster Cait is a sieging master Darius is a counter to immobile melees

it's all about strategy

{quoted}

becoming meta.

Nobody talked about becoming meta

Teridax6810 votes

Mordepool pointed this out already, but the myth of marksmen not being viable outside of a duo lane is simply not true, at least not anymore. Since the Marksman Update, marksmen have migrated to all positions, including support in some rarer cases, and on top of that, tend to act as lane bullies when in top lane, including against champions like Darius or Renekton. This is in addition to marksmen being present on practically every team in every match since Season 1, so making them less of a fixture in games would contribute positively to the game's diversity, not negatively.

Also worth mentioning relative to the OP is that the problem isn't just with adding melee champions to bot lane, but any non-marksman of any kind. The only champion who came close to breaking total marksman dominance in bot lane was Ziggs, and he only lasted as a niche pick there for a couple of months before blanket buffs to AD items kicked him out. There are several AP carries, like Azir, Cassiopeia or Karthus (or even Mordekaiser), who would love to have the protection of a support in bot lane so that they'd get easier access to their late-game, but they simply cannot compete with marksmen at any stage of a match. OP is right that marksmen need less access to free poke early on, and I also think the core issue here is with marksmen as a class being so strong that they push everyone out of bot lane, not with every other class needing special designs just to be able to go there. Riot tried that with Mordekaiser's rework and Yasuo, and we all know how those turned out.

Starcraft243ver1 votes

Ashe Caitlyn Draven Jinx Kalista MissFortune Sivir Tristana Xayah

Sure, we see a lot of solo lanes with these ;)

Ahristocats4 votes

{quoted}

Ashe Caitlyn

want to get a flashback from season 1? back when botlane wasn't only marksmen and ashe/cait went mid

Nothing is wrong with them going mid, and nothing changed they can still do it there is just no point to pick them mid instead of bot but they will stil get past early game without dying with their range

Starcraft243ver2 votes

Nothing is wrong with them going mid, and nothing changed they can still do it

It worked in season 1 because mobility creeps were not this present, and maybe burst damage too.

I want to see a Fizz/Ashe duel just to show you the problem, or ashe/zed, even annie ashe will be funny to see.

Ralanr2 votes

To be fair, Ashe could just freely poke Fizz.

Starcraft243ver2 votes

Until they both hit 6 and fizz kills ashe every 90seconds.

Ralanr3 votes

Point is to get him stupid behind by then.

Arakadia2 votes

Easier said than done. His kit is built to function with less cs because he is melee without any ranged or safe way of farming.

Ralanr3 votes

True.

Only Play Darius5 votes

Play any marksman toplane against Darius and tell me they're not that great in solo lanes. Ironically I would rather play ADC Darius against a traditional botlane instead of toplane Darius against ranged.

BioticBrony5 votes

It feels like you are trying to force a meta change into League. The meta of a game comes from the player finding the best way to win not someone trying to change the meta so that his off-meta pick is acceptable.

While I do agree there needs to be more diversity bot lane. The best way for there to be a melee adc bot lane is to nudge it in the right direction through small changes not big changes like the new Runes. Cause that shit will be broken when they become meta and you will risk Riot gutting them like they did Morde when he went Bot lane.

Acheron163 votes

There will ALWAYS be a meta, no matter what the game is: if it is competitive, the best will be accepted as the norm.

Adc's are already one of the most gimped classes in the game, having the worst base stats (save a couple of enchanters like Soraka or a mage like Anivia that have CC or healing to mitigate that) in the game. Bad resists, terrible move speed (save a couple exceptions), mediocre damage that is coupled with good attack speed growth.

If melees areviable botlane, that means two things:

  • they'll be absolutely unbearable in other lanes
  • they wont trade back with marksmen, they will simply always all-in them to keep them dead
Ahristocats3 votes

{quoted}

There will ALWAYS be a meta, no matter what the game is: if it is competitive, the best will be accepted as the norm.

so just change it? or you want the game to be the same?

{quoted}

Adc's are already one of the most gimped classes in the game, having the worst base stats

+500 range is one of the most overpowered stat in league

{quoted}

If melees areviable botlane, that means two things:

  • they'll be absolutely unbearable in other lanes

No

{quoted}

  • they wont trade back with marksmen, they will simply always all-in them to keep them dead

easier to say it than to do it son

Arakadia1 votes

Why "no". Why is that point wrong?

Ahristocats1 votes

do you see tryndamere being overbearing in solo lane, because now he can go in botlane just because adc poke was tuned down?

seriously? this doesn't even requiere an argument

Arakadia1 votes

Whatever mechanic he is using to reduce adc poke is possibly able to reduce power in other areas leading to melees being unnaturally tanky. Its not guaranteed there would be abuse but it's very possible.

Ahristocats2 votes

he doesn't use any mechanics to reduce adc poke

adc themselves get their poke reduced, tryndamere doesn't get anything and they can give a rune reducing damage taken/increasing hp regen if at least one ally is nearby

GULAG 4 U1 votes

500+. Just wanted to point that out. It's not +500 range.

Big Lincoln3 votes

they're just teasing us tbh don't fall for it

THE RlVER KlNG3 votes

You can't just arbitrarily buff a bunch of melee champs in the hopes that they'll be good bot lane - that will just ruin top lane and make certain champions even more oppressive - especially some of the champs you listed.

You really think Riot rushing around to mold runes to only benefit your precious Darius is healthy for the game?

NineTailedMystic2 votes

If melees become commonplace botlane, they're likely to just roll over the enemy lane without opposition. A Darius/heavy engage Support sounds like a nightmare. I've already heard MM rave about Morde/Leona bot lane.

DRAGOON Burst2 votes

Making Melees viable botlane? I saw this and was reminded of how they reworked Mordekaiser and people brought him bot lane (or Riot said he was the new melee ADC thing, I could be wrong). Then, he was thrown in the shtter... never to be heard from again.

elon wątroba2 votes

A rune that decrease BOTH damage given and taken in a few first minutes?

Ahristocats2 votes

you can just decrease damage taken and it's fine (in duo lane with an ally) even if both marksmen and melees are taking it, melees are still getting more benefits as they reduce poke and they're able to lane against them

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