@Meddler Do you guys ever rework a champion because they're boring?

Koechophe·Mar 10, 2016·7 votes·20,595 views

Most, if not all the reworks I see for champions are because they're either toxic or hard to balance or lacking a strategic niche in some way, shape or form. But a few champions just fall off of the meta when not overtly op (despite being reasonably powerful) because they're just not terribly fun to play. Galio seems like a good example of this; he's got a highpoint on his ult, but everything else feels pretty meh. I would also put Karma in that catagory as well, since there's nothing too exciting about her kit, even mantra'd E feels pretty bland considering the accessability of Talisman and Locket. I'm sure there are other examples, but I was just curious, do (and will you) you ever rework based on how much fun someone is to play?

86 Comments

RiotReav3Mar 10, 20169 votes

The short answer is: Yes!

While a lot of factors go into our decision on which champ to update, boring to play is definitely one of them. Galio is actually fairly high on our priority list for a full VGU because of this, though there are some champions that we still want to get to first. Taric is actually a pretty good example of a champion that was picked largely to make his kit more interesting to play as and against.

RalanrMar 10, 20161 votes

.... Galio ** IS ON THE VGU PRIORITY LIST?!**

RiotReav3Mar 10, 20162 votes

I would say he's up there on the list, with a hand full of other champs as well. There are a few champions that are higher priority right now though, like Taric/Yorick for example.

BrutusnessMar 11, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I would say he's up there on the list, with a hand full of other champs as well. There are a few champions that are higher priority right now though, like Taric/Yorick for example.

Do you guys consider Swain to be one of these champions? It seems that a lot of Rioters don't care for him, due to his nerfing and distinct lack of skins, so does this mean he's getting a VGU next year?

RiotReav3Mar 11, 20162 votes

I'm not sure if it will be next year or not, but Swain is definitely on that list.

BrutusnessMar 11, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I'm not sure if it will be next year or not, but Swain is definitely on that list.

If his relaunch is just a distant idea at this point, why has his splash only been teased? It's been shown multiple times on the PBE but taken off every time for months, even though many people like it and would like to see his extremely dated splash replaced. Is there any reason why it hasn't gone through?

RiotReav3Mar 11, 20162 votes

It hasn't gone through yet because it wasn't finished. It was about 80-90% complete. It was one of many splashes that was being worked on when there was a central illustration team. That team has since been spread out through Riot, so that each team have illustrators assigned to there team. So Champ Up for example has it's own illustrators that work on Champ Up Projects, while the skins team has it's own illustrators that work on splash are for skins.

That being said we want to finish up some of these in the future it's just about getting the time from some of the illustrators to do them.

QuephaMar 11, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I'm not sure if it will be next year or not, but Swain is definitely on that list.

I've heard this a few times before but it's always kind of mystified me. I have a couple friends who are IN LOVE with Swain's bird form and I thought there were a lot of other players who really enjoy that feeling but it sounds like Riot really dislikes that Swain doesn't fill the title of 'master tactician' and it seems like turning into a bird and sitting on people until they die would be slightly antithetical there.

BrutusnessMar 11, 20162 votes

{quoted}

I've heard this a few times before but it's always kind of mystified me. I have a couple friends who are IN LOVE with Swain's bird form and I thought there were a lot of other players who really enjoy that feeling but it sounds like Riot really dislikes that Swain doesn't fill the title of 'master tactician' and it seems like turning into a bird and sitting on people until they die would be slightly antithetical there.

There is literally no way they could remove his Ult. Absolutely none. His ability to do it makes him Swain, take that away and it destroys him completely. Hell, his main selling point for skins is having a badass ult form.

Valor BotMar 13, 20162 votes

Hey, I thought they'd never remove the murder-bird shapeshift on Quinn's R, but here we are lol

AtanchanMar 14, 20161 votes

To be fair, Valor's still very much there. I could imagine they do something similar to Swain if they wanted to change his ultimate, where he would still turn into a crow Satan monster demon, and probably still have some sort of AoE DoT centered around him, while still changing it significantly. Something that comes to mind would be making it a normal self-buff ability instead of a toggle, so there's a limit to how much he can just passively drain that isn't based around his mana pool.

Valor BotMar 14, 20162 votes

Valor's still there, but in a drastically different way. He's just a visual effect now rather than a character you can actually play as.

I really do hope Swain's ult stays the same for the most part, though.

LuminierMar 11, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I'm not sure if it will be next year or not, but Swain is definitely on that list.

How about Aatrox? Dude has no identity. Tryndamere, Trundle, Jax, Xin Zhao, etc. Are all just better versions of him. I'm kinda sad to see he's not on the radar for rework, since he's at Galio level of identity crisis. Amumu, Fiddlesticks, Nunu, etc are all just better versions of Galio, for context.

RiotReav3Mar 12, 20164 votes

Aatrox has pretty modern art and theme so he is a great candidate for a roster size project whenever we get around to doing Divers.

So he is pretty high on our radar, just not for a full VGU. Divers themselves are high on our radar for a roster project. Not sure which class we will do next but Assassins, Divers, and Tanks are all high on our list right now,

EROTIC RAID BOSSMar 12, 20163 votes

Just curious but what's wrong with tanks that you guys feel they need a roster update as much as assassins or divers. I'd especially think assassins would have the most issues

RiotReav3Mar 12, 20166 votes

The primary goal of the roster project is to look at a class that has a lot of champions who do similar things and make them more distinct from one another. Currently there are a lot of tanks that do very similar things. Zac, Malphite, Maokai to name a few. A roster project would be a good opportunity to give some of these champions a clearer strategic Identity.

While assassins probably have the most game health issues, all 3 of the classes I mentioned above have a lot of champions with very similar strategic identies in them.

IxtaliKingMar 12, 20162 votes

What about the champs who need work but don't sit squarely in a particular subclass, or are in a subclass which is fine in general?

IAmNeverViableMar 12, 20163 votes

Can support be looked at? Does not have to be immediate but at least start looking at them.

Some of the traditional support are somewhat similar or very lackluster when behind. Nami and Sona falls on this category, similar on what they do, but nami has better number and kit wise. My another problem is margin of error. Tanky support does not get punish hard when making a mistake, but traditional support get punish hard when they do. Lastly, traditional support has the same amount of impact as tanky support. Traditional support has higher risk and yet tanky support can do about the same amount of impact but less risk.

My main concern is support itemization. Support get gold generation and get a lot of gold as of result, but not a lot of good item to buy. There are good support items like item 2049 item 3222 item 3092 item 3190 item 3401 item 3069 . The other support item are niche and serves their role well which is not bad, but we need more support item. There few option for traditional support to buy and when they got their core item, they either buy ap or tanky, both are expensive or does not fit well for the champion. Want more answer to specific team comp or helps strengthens our team comp.

Mister ModestyMar 13, 20162 votes

Malphite support proves that even tanky supports have this problem. Malphite gets bonus Armor based on his current armor- but isn't building any armor for some time if he's support. You have to get FotM and Sightstone, where if you went Top you would have started something more rewarding like Thornmail or Sunfire.

LankPantsMar 14, 20161 votes

Malphite support proves that even tanky supports have this problem.

I don't see how, Malphite isn't designed as or balanced around being a support.

3TWarriorMar 14, 20161 votes

he can ignore poke with his shield every 10 seconds, his Q is targeted and reduces both movement speed and attack speed, his burst is high, he has multiple forms of crowd control, he's melee for face of the mountain, his base stats are high,

and I think that's it

SolideusMar 12, 20162 votes

Between those three, what class has the most champions that would be out-of-scope for a roster update? Would that influence which one you'd prioritize next?

RiotReav3Mar 12, 20164 votes

All 3 of those classes have enough champions that are in scope for a roster project, so they are all viable selections.

LankPantsMar 12, 20163 votes

For me I'd say assassins, because as you said assassins have a lot of health issues that tend to make the game as a whole less fun. And it's just that, a game, it's meant to be fun.

AMYS GRAVEMar 14, 20161 votes

Second that.

EROTIC RAID BOSSMar 13, 20166 votes

I never thought of those 3 as being very similar tbh. Maokai seems very peel and damage reduction focused, malph is the ultimate wombo combo tank, and Zac, he does initiation and peel too but I always think about his long range ganks being pretty unique among jungler tanks.

Not arguing with the logic of the idea though. I'm personally pulling for one of the other 2 though because assassins are annoying and I'm very curious to see what an updated aatrox and Irelia would look like

Final Raid BossMar 15, 20161 votes

Maokai and Zac have clear identities.. This seems purely like Riot is trying to fix something that isn't broken, all these little reworks are starting to go way too far.

Sad TyrantMar 13, 20162 votes

NO, ANYTHING BUT ZAC. MA HEART STILL HURTS BECAUSE OF SHEN, PLEASE DON'T BREAK MA HEART BY CHANGING ONE OF MY FAVOURITE CHAMPS [zombie-nunu-tears]

7thHeavenMar 14, 20161 votes

Means Amumu or Sejuani will be touched ? Their kits are exactly same

RiotReav3Mar 14, 20161 votes

While I can't say exactly which champs we would choose, I can say that these 2 would be very strong candidates for a tank roster project.

warpenguin555Mar 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

While I can't say exactly which champs we would choose, I can say that these 2 would be very strong candidates for a tank roster project.

pls look into Maokai when you do tanks. SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO boring.

RiotReav3Mar 14, 20161 votes

I mentioned Maokai above as a champion we would strongly consider working on whenever we get around to a Tank Roster Project :)

Sahn UzalMar 14, 20161 votes

Now that we're talking on the topic of tanks being boring; I'd love to see the tank class basically get Threshed... When Thresh got released, he basically revolutionized the Support role and completely threw the ''Support is easy'' stereo type out of the window, Right? Or so I've heard. -- I'd love to see a tank whose kit is hard to pull off c: I really enjoy Sion because his skill ceiling is a lot higher than most other tanks (There's walldrifting with his ultimate and all that good stuff eh) But his skill floor is still pretty damn low.. -- What would your opinion be on such a thing? I honestly do not like the ''Tanks are easy by default'' mentality at all :C

I think it'd be pretty safe to say people wouldn't mind picking a tank as much as they do (gotta get dat Fiora Freelo) if Tanks were more enjoyable, or atleast, we had a fun tank to play for people who enjoy hard champions y'know? summoner 31

warpenguin555Mar 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I mentioned Maokai above as a champion we would strongly consider working on whenever we get around to a Tank Roster Project :)

oh oops lol

hopeful4Mar 14, 20161 votes

It would be harder to do this in the scope of a roster project though.

Regardless if it is harder, shouldnt that be what you should aim for? I remember Meddler saying that tanks and assasins need redefinement of the role, rather than just making the champions more distinctive.

EunhanimMar 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Of course we would aim to make champions more fun to play with the roster updates. The primary goal for the roster projects are to add clear strategic identities to a group of characters that have overlapping strategic identities though, rather then add a higher skill cap to a champion.

When I say it would be hard, I mean that we generally only change 1, maybe 2 abilities for the roster projects champions. Some champions probably can't go from low skill to high skill with one ability, and we also don't want to make every champion in the game high skill.

Don't forgot that a boring champion need less mechanic skill to play, player who is bad at mechanic but good at decision making can still make big impact with a boring champ, but if they play a higher mechanic champ they will more than likely to mess up their play. Leave those "boring" champs alone, they need to be there to make League of Legend a well around game

CoBCommanderMar 15, 20161 votes

Are there any plans for Xerath? As a fan of his prerework style i experience the postrework a extremely bland. His skills aren't really interacting with each other and his passive severly misses out on being special. In the lategame the passive becomes even completely because he is so unreliable(read as: people kill the minions before you can auto them) and you have to get a strong manaregitem anyway.

Same goes for the Visuals of said passive as well as his Ultimate.

I would love to see some tweaks on his E, passive and or Ult for a bit more UNIQUE AND INTERACTIVE playstyle. I liked for example how the stun got procced on his other spells. Interactions like that are missing on his Kit. The stun bullseye interaction should not be the only one but rather one of many.

Right now he is just all about either E->W->Q or QQQQ which is quite bland.

Also, what are your plans on Orianna? Is she fine? Will something come in addition to her Q buffs?

Have a nice day!

Final Raid BossMar 15, 20161 votes

No, no, no, please don't mess with Zac or Maokai for that matter. Malphite is probably the only one out of those 3 that needs legitimate work done. Don't try to fix what isn't broken. This is exactly the kind of comment that I didn't want to see from Riot. Jeez it's like no champion is safe.

Sun Wu RyuumokuMar 14, 20161 votes

In which class Wukong fit for u ?

Divers : clearly he's a diver like irelia, Xin and Aatrox.... Assassins : most of wukong player play him as an assassin Tanks : Riot say he's a fighter and then a tank

JaéjiMar 15, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Aatrox has pretty modern art and theme so he is a great candidate for a roster size project whenever we get around to doing Divers.

So he is pretty high on our radar, just not for a full VGU. Divers themselves are high on our radar for a roster project. Not sure which class we will do next but Assassins, Divers, and Tanks are all high on our list right now,

Think we can see Kayle put in to those "divers" update? I would love to see a more offensive Kayle with more use of her wings. She seems a bit bland as it is anyway so I would love to see something like that added on to her kit. Kayle Love her wings.

3TWarriorMar 14, 20161 votes

if I could make a suggestion. Swain is the master tactician, so, doesn't it make sense that he might be a zoning mage?

I made a remark that he is the Master Tactician and not the Ravenous Raven

RiotReav3Mar 14, 20163 votes

Yeah "Master Tactician" is definitely something we would want to hit a lot harder when we get around to doing a VGU on Swain. Not to say he couldn't be a Master Tactician that also has "Raven Magic," as Raven is kind of core to his theme.

SlyTactician Mar 11, 20162 votes

Just curious to know - but is it possible that Teemo could be considered for a rework as well?

If he's too strong, he's considered extremely toxic while in his current state he's just treated as a joke pick.

With th duration to his mushrooms being nerfed in half recently it seems that Teemo's niche of map control was also lost too. Just curious to know if Teemo might get some new abilities in the near future.

Pika310Mar 15, 20161 votes

Why is Taric higher up on the list than Sona, when he has a higher competitive pick-rate in pro play than she does? Mayhaps the only reason is because he's been overdue for one longer than she has? I certainly hope as the unarguably weakest support in the game(as a direct cause of Gutting 4.13) that she's at least high on the list past projects that're already in development.

I'm honestly amazed why a champ was and is still left factually unplayable for what's closing in on 20 months now, that a simple revert of the entire 4.13 patch could've easily fixed.

Valor BotMar 13, 20163 votes

Hey Reav3!

What are your thoughts on Quinn currently? I know she's seeing quite a bit of success in both solo queue and competitive play at the minute, which is great, but a lot of us Quinn players across the board agree that she's kinda lacking in the fun department compared to our old Quinn.

So, before her rework, her ultimate gave her SO many options and opportunities: she could use it for roaming, ganking, assassinating, or repositioning. Now, it's just a pure mobility tool which doesn't even feel good to use a lot of the time due to the long channel and how easy it is for it to be canceled. Not to mention the ult simply isn't as fun to use anymore compared to the old one.

See, Quinn technically had 2 kits before, her own and Valor's. Even if Valor's abilities were just melee versions of Quinn's, they were fun to use and added variety and versatility to her kit because you had many ways to pull them off! Now we've just been left with Quinn's kit, but souped up, and an ultimate that you just kinda spam whenever you know you're gonna be walking for a while, whereas Tag Team actually had a meaningful cooldown tied to it to make sure you'd use it for wise plays around the map or in your lane! (Not saying her current ult can't be used wisely too, I'm just saying the cooldown [or lack thereof] makes it so that she doesn't need to plan ahead all of the time.)

I also think the new ultimate took away a lot Quinn's original flavor/thematic and gameplay identity (namely, the dual Champion thematic). The swap out/transformation with Valor made sense because he's supposed to be Quinn's fighting equal. He even had his own portrait that would show up on the screen and minimap during Tag Team! Quinn and Valor were THE 2-in-1 Champions. But now since we can't play him or use him in combat anymore, it feels like he's been relegated to Tibbers status, where he's more of just a 'pet'. It doesn't feel like we're doing justice to Quinn and Valor, now it's mostly just Quinn even though they're supposed to be a dynamic duo!

Anyway, sorry for the long post, I just wanna hear your thoughts on this and if you think there will ever be a chance for Valor to return as a playable character again. I've tried to get conversations going with Rioters about Quinn and Valor for a while now so if you have time to talk, I'd really appreciate it :)

Thanks and cheers!

RiotReav3Mar 14, 20166 votes

Hi Valor Bot!

Thanks for the well thought out post!

First let me say that I am not a designer, for design questions it would be best to ask Riot Repertoir (the designer on the Quinn update), Statikk (the lead designer of the champion update team), or Meddler (the lead designer of core gameplay.)

In fact, RR answered many questions about Quinn in a post awhile back you should check out

That being said I can try to answer you questions from my perspective as the product manager of the champion update team.

To provide some context, as the product manager, my primary responsibility is to provide the high level strategy for the team (What we work on and how many resources we dedicate to those things), and to create the high level product goals for what we work on.

So below are the three initiatives we currently have on the Champion Update team as well as what there product goals are.

**VGU Initiative **

Product Goal: Bring champions that are below current Riot standards for Design, Art, and Narrative up to the same level as a new champion. (Essentially creating a new champion with the core essence of the old champion.)

**Roster Initiative **

Product Goal: Look at a entire class or sub-class and define the classes Strengths & Weaknesses. Push the champions in that class or sub-class that have overlapping strategic identities into a more clear, distinct strategic identity.

**Skin Splash Rework Initiative **

Product Goal: Update current VGU's skin splash art and champions that have had VUs in the past to match there new model and are up to Riot's current Splash Art Standards.

Ok, now that I have provided the context I will try and answer your questions the best I can.

What are your thoughts on Quinn currently?

While I won't comment on her design I can comment on how well she hit the roster projects product goals. In that regard, I think Quinn was a very successful roster project. While we didn't give her a new strategic identity, we did push her old strategic identity (Markmen with a lot of mobility) much further, which resulted in a much clearer strategic identity. There are now clear reasons to pick Quinn (one being that she is really good against champions that want to split push, and she works really well with comps that want to skirmish a lot.)

Anyway, sorry for the long post, I just wanna hear your thoughts on this and if you think there will ever be a chance for Valor to return as a playable character again.

Quinn most likely won't be in a roster project anytime soon, and she's not really in need of a full VGU anytime soon either. I wouldn't say we will never do a bigger update to her that brings back Valor, it just isn't on the horizon anytime soon. If we got to the point a couple years down the line where it looked like Quinn was in need of a VGU there's always the possibility of Valor coming back.

Árchangel AvacynMar 14, 20165 votes

While we didn't give her a new strategic identity, we did push her old strategic identity (Markmen with a lot of mobility) much further, which resulted in a much clearer strategic identity.

I really have to step in and question the accuracy of this statement, there seems to be quite a lot of issue with Riot and how they perceive champion's roles and themes which I was hoping you'd have learned from the mess that was the Mordekaiser update. Quinn was not a 'Marksman with a lot of mobility' and no one who played her consistently would agree with that, removing her most mechanically interesting ability and perhaps the one that personified her theme the most is not 'pushing her old strategic identity' in the slightest. It's true that roaming was extremely common on Quinn, you'd be a fool not to with an ult like that but mobility wasn't a significant part of her identity any more than it would be for the likes of Tahm Kench, it was a tool you had access to but not a core element of her kit that needed expanding on.

What's most telling is that in the year leading up to the update there was several concerted efforts to help you guys understand what it was that we liked about Quinn and her playstyle and at no point did anyone ever suggest 'Valor should do less stuff' because the idea of removing Valor as a combat unit(even the most radical suggestions were aimed at making him function as a summon-able unit like Tibbers and Wolf) runs completely counter to everything the champion was supposed to be about, a team.

If your claim is that the rework made Quinn stronger and more viable in competitive play then I will agree with you, that's true. The real question that needs to be answered though is: Was removing great chunks of her mechanical interactions, theme and feel an appropriate price for the power gained? I don't think so, Mordekaiser players didn't think so when he became FOTM after his rework but lost a lot of his charm too.

I understand that you are not the person to talk to about this but getting a hold of Rep is very hard lately(I assume due to the Taric Update/MYMU), I don't want you to think that I'm angry at you specifically but I am very frustrated with the situation we are in right now. My favourite champion feels so much less fun and simpler and everyone expects you to be happy about it because 'she's stronger' or just flame you for 'playing some cancer champion' in all my years of playing a champion considered trash by most people I've never received as much abuse for picking her as I have in the few months she's been strong and I'd just like to know that Riot at least acknowledges what was lost to achieve that goal.

Thanks for your time, Reav3.

RiotReav3Mar 14, 20161 votes

Hey Quinn and Valet,

Sorry you feel that way. We understand and agree that our communication wasn't the greatest on the previous roster projects. This is why we have been posting the Mage design direction posts for the Mage class update. One of our goals with the Mage project is too communicate earlier and gather feedback from the players of the champions chosen for updates.

Goodnight NunuMar 14, 20162 votes

I do hope you guys will try to communicate as much as you can when you revisit Mordekaiser.^^

Árchangel AvacynMar 14, 20162 votes

Thanks for taking the time to reply, I am genuinely happy that you have started to do that I'm just a little sad that you didn't realise that after the Juggernaut update. People like you and Repertoir single-handedly keep me hopeful that things will pan out in the future, it can be hard to do that sometimes so thank you for that.