New thornmail math, just to people understand it is a nerf to ALL champions

DropFill··41 votes·10,892 views

Including Rammus and Malphite. Always assuming basic attack before mitigation. Assuming a basic attack of 100 damage : Old thornmail : 30 damage reflection New thornmail : 15 damage reflection and, in order to bypass the old thornmail damage, you need 60+ bonus armor So, assuming a 100 damage basic attack before mitigation , this is a buff. Assuming a 200 damage basic attack : Old Thornmail : 60 damage reflection New Thornmail : 30 and, in order to bypass the older thornmail damage, you need 120+ bonus armor. This is still a buff in most cases. Assuming a 300 damage basic attack : Old Thornmail : 90 damage reflection New Thornmail : 45 damage reflection and, in order to bypass the old thornmail damage, you need 180+ bonus armor. This is a BUFF if you already have another armor item. If you don't have, it is a NERF, except to Malphite and Rammus. Assuming a 400 damage basic attack : Old Thornmail : 120 damage reflection New Thornmail : 60 damage reflection and, in order to bypass the old damage , you need 240+. THIS IS A NERF TO EVERYONE except Rammus assuming lvl 5 on rammus W. Any value higher then 400 damage is a nerf to EVERYONE including Rammus. And since it's before mitigation, all this damage values I said are VERY low. A crit with IE, assuming 0 armor, would do something close to 500 damage.

Just for some people to understand that new thornmail is a HUGE nerf to EVERYONE. And it doesn't scale that well with your armor, because the damage of ADC's scale harder than your amor.

53 Comments

ZT Xperimentor26 votes

Riot seems to have the hypocritical complexity of nerfing items, but overloading champions.

idoki1 votes

The words you're looking for are competitive integrity.

alfavhunter2 votes

[{quoted}](name=ZT Xperimentor,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BHjE27Ig,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-09-26T19:50:57.545+0000)

Riot seems to have the hypocritical complexity of nerfing items, but overloading champions.

Don't forget the nerfing champions because of an item, then nerfing the item

Senj rest in peace. :(

Saianna13 votes

You should also include that crits don't count in damage reflected.

And that ADCs still outheal any damage dealt by thornmail.

Xonra13 votes

{quoted}

You should also include that crits don't count in damage reflected.

And that ADCs still outheal any damage dealt by item 3075 .

Was playing Ashe against a Shen with thornmail (our team ended up being all AD) and with only lifesteal quints (was testing a build) and item 3153 I was still out healing the return damage on item 3075 , and the only other items I had were item 3046, item 3031, and item 3006.

The new item 3075 is laughably pointless.

Pale Pirate8 votes

item 3075 : We're nerfing this item to be worse for tanks and useless for everyone else. item 3143 : Since it reduces crit damage, why shouldn't it reduce ALL crit damage? Like, Anivia E maybe? Fuck yeah, makes sense.

What drugs was your balance team taking, riot?

Dar Raksada1 votes

{quoted}

item 3075 : We're nerfing this item to be worse for tanks and useless for everyone else. item 3143 : Since it reduces crit damage, why shouldn't it reduce ALL crit damage? Like, Anivia E maybe? Fuck yeah, makes sense.

What drugs was your balance team taking, riot?

meanwhile IE doesn't buff Anivia's E.

B3ER5 votes

It is called ADC bias and Riot has always had it.

Auroramancer3 votes

TL;DR - read it anyway.

That's kind of the point man.

Riot was nerfing the item for everyone except for tanks prioritizing armor builds.

The whole point of it was to prevent bruisers, who build health+damage, from going "huh this item is so effective for me vs the enemy marksman, this could be the ONLY tank item for me".

If you're building it to counter Marksmen, the natural complement to Thornmail is Frozen Heart, so there's +190 bonus armor for you, which is a buff from the old Thornmail, assuming a 300 damage auto attack. And you don't have to be Malphite orRammus to build those two items either.

Let's add in another armor item belonging in a tank build: item 3143. +60 armor. So with item 3110 +item 3075 +item 3143 , you have +250 bonus armor, giving you +62.5 reflect damage on the ratio. At +250 bonus armor, you're breaking even with the old Thornmail @ 416.7 damage auto attacks.

All-in-all, the only champions who are going to be doing a build like that are tanks, and not limited to Rammus orMalphite . This build is viable on Leona Thresh Braum Nautilus Sion Volibear RekSai Shen Sejuani Taric Trundle Alistar Amumu . The Thornmail change is a nerf when used on: Darius Garen Irelia JarvanIV LeeSin Olaf Shyvana Tryndamere Vi MonkeyKing XinZhao Renekton Anybody remember how toxic it was for the champions in the last list ^ here to build bruiser-damage and just completely shutting out Marksmen by purchasing Thornmail and having the gap closers in their kits?

This is my point: even though Thornmail did get a nerf when it comes to reflecting vs. critical strikes (what Marksmen is going to have more than 400 AD unless they forego attack speed or crit chance in their build??), the nerf (in this aspect) was necessary to reduce the efficiency of Thornmail on gap-closing bruisers who would completely ruin the game for Marksmen. **It's a necessary evil. Either let bruisers build Thornmail as their only tank item and oppress Marksmen in-game, or shut out Thornmail builds on bruisers at the expense of nerfing Thornmail vs crit strikes. ** I'd prefer the latter.

Shonjl2 votes

The funny thing is, all ADCs needed was Bloodthirster and Last Whisperer and they went even or slightly healed more than what old Thornmail did. And those are 2 items ADCs should be buying anyways sooooo.....The point of Thornmail was to nearly cancel out Lifesteal. And it did its job well if the ADC didn't build sustain or armor pen. So they deserved to nearly kill themselves. If they did build sustain or armor pen or both. They were fine. New Thornmail now is countered by Lifesteal....the thing it was meant to counter.

While if people thought it was that bad, I wouldn't suggest going back to old values, but they should change Thornmail some since there is no reason for it to exist anymore if it is getting countered by the sole reason you bought it for, Lifesteal, the thing that was meant to be a counter for it. Personally I would suggest keep its damage low but add Grievous Wounds. The damage is low so people can't complain about them dying to it, but its old purpose is back, messing up Lifesteal which it would badly with Grievous Wounds.

Earl Eulrich2 votes

not exactly new wisdom, but maybe Riot will understand that one - though chances are that they´ll just wait a few patches, see that thornmail is the item with the lowest build/winrate and than they´ll add a new item named Thorne´s Harbringer that combines ap and mr to make up for the loss of the now deleted thornmail.

disregardable2 votes

The intention wasn't for it to be anything other than a nerf. You'll notice they nerfed the other armor items with it too. They definitely overdid it a bit, but I think the intention of "hey, maybe it's unfair that you can kill the 1 item ADC by just standing there" was from a good place. They just need to find a better way to buff its lategame without making its early game punishing.

DropFill37 votes

[{quoted}](name=Very Toxic Jinx,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BHjE27Ig,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-09-26T18:57:31.471+0000)

The intention wasn't for it to be anything other than a nerf. You'll notice they nerfed the other armor items with it too. They definitely overdid it a bit, but I think the intention of "hey, maybe it's unfair that you can kill the 1 item ADC by just standing there" was from a good place. They just need to find a better way to buff its lategame without making its early game punishing.

It wasn't a " I can kill the adc by standing still " It was a " Stop fucking trying to 1v1 full armor tank as an adc you idiot. "

Crett2 votes

^^^^^^

disregardable3 votes

Those two sentences mean the same things? Also, if it was intended for tanks to be the one role that you can't counterplay, everyone would play all tanks.

Voluug1318 votes

Mages shred tanks like no other.

Malzahar Cassiopeia Swain

disregardable2 votes

haha funny

My Waifu Vanilla19 votes

Malz has a like 16% max health per second dot at full build.....would like you to reconsider your sarcasm.

disregardable1 votes

Wow. I can't believe that a majority of people on these boards actually want the 3 dot mages to be the only ways to kill tanks. That's hilarious oh my god. xD The top/jg supremacy complex is more serious than I thought lol.

Xengre2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Very Toxic Jinx,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BHjE27Ig,comment-id=0002000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2015-09-27T18:34:25.124+0000)

Wow. I can't believe that a majority of people on these boards actually want the 3 dot mages to be the only ways to kill tanks. That's hilarious oh my god. xD The top/jg supremacy complex is more serious than I thought lol.

Or maybe you can rely on multiple people to assist in killing the tank with Thornmail and tons of armor items rather than offense with mixed dmg + combined HP pools so the impact of Thornmail isn't applied to a single player, instead. You could also ignore the full tank Thornmail user and go for everyone else and deal with them last considering they lack offense. If they go Thornmail + mres/offense oriented then late game, and possibly mid, ADC will shred them and this is before considering champs like Ezreal/Lucian/Vayne. Forbid a champ builds entirely to counter a specific player, right? Why not rely on your mages and bruiser to help with the Thornmail user? You can mitigate Thornmail through mres, Lifesteal, and shields as well. If they super rush Thornmail, odds are, they wont be lethal and you can straight up ignore them for other targets or walk away if its 1v1.

Thryale1 votes

malz and old cass are great at tank busting (don't really know what new cass does, all I know is she's a squishy deleter atm) but swain... he's right to laugh at swain. Been trying to main him for a while, and just can't seem to do jack unless my team is rolling.

Don't get me wrong, if I play well, I can win my lane, but my impact in team fights is lack luster at best and I'm better off dumping my damage on the squishy than the tank.

KidSpectre1 votes

Oh goodness, now I'm having flashbacks of the old old Randuin's Omen, that slowed your attack speed AND movement speed on hit. Basically you didn't have the option of ever attacking the tank, because they returned your damage with thornmail, and slowed your movespeed and attack speed by huge amounts.

Anonagon2 votes

IT NEEDED TO BE NERFED

THORNMAIL WAS ALWAYS BROKEN

IF YOU ARE TOO STUPID TO UNDERSTAND THAT OLD THORNMAIL KILLED ADCS WITH NO OTHER INPUT, THEN YOU SHOULDN'T BE ALLOWED TO POST ON THESE FORUMS

DropFill22 votes

{quoted}

IT NEEDED TO BE NERFED

THORNMAIL WAS ALWAYS BROKEN

IF YOU ARE TOO STUPID TO UNDERSTAND THAT OLD THORNMAIL KILLED ADCS WITH NO OTHER INPUT, THEN YOU SHOULDN'T BE ALLOWED TO POST ON THESE FORUMS

If the ADC had BT plus the shield, and assuming he wasn't trying, for whatever reason, to 1v1 someone with full armor, thornmail would never kill them.

Anonagon1 votes

No, you are wrong.

An ADC with two lifesteal items and a magic resist item can sit at range and AA a thornmail (EDIT: old thornmail, not new thornmail) wearing tank and the ADC will (almost always) die before the tank (Vayne and Kog will generally make it out alive, but every other ADC won't unless the tank in question doesn't have or doesn't use their defensive steroids.)

Maximum Morde6 votes

{quoted}

No, you are wrong.

An ADC with two lifesteal items and a magic resist item can sit at range and AA a thornmail (EDIT: old thornmail, not new thornmail) wearing tank and the ADC will (almost always) die before the tank (Vayne and Kog will generally make it out alive, but every other ADC won't unless the tank in question doesn't have or doesn't use their defensive steroids.)

And I don't see the problem with that. Auto attackers in general should be far weaker than everything else as far as I'm concerned.

dannykun3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maximum Morde,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BHjE27Ig,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2015-09-26T19:55:23.002+0000)

And I don't see the problem with that. Auto attackers in general should be far weaker than everything else as far as I'm concerned.

I do see the problem with that, ADC's are meant to shred tanks and towers, and are meant to be weak to high burst because they want to scrap out of a teamfight with lifesteal. Thorns kinda just made being an ADC horribly difficult as they could literally die to anyone because of how squishy they were, and with the new Gromp buff from smite it's a wonder that anyone would take an ADC with the old thornmail. IMHO the thornmail nerfs were needed, you can still shred an ADC with their completely imbalanced kits. (a lot of free early power with some %hp scalings is all you needed to kill a squishy in the first place) This simply makes it so that An adc can actually survive in a 1v1 with a tank if they build right, and make smart use of their abilities.

Maximum Morde9 votes

{quoted}

I do see the problem with that, ADC's are meant to shred tanks and towers, and are meant to be weak to high burst because they want to scrap out of a teamfight with lifesteal. Thorns kinda just made being an ADC horribly difficult as they could literally die to anyone because of how squishy they were, and with the new Gromp buff from smite it's a wonder that anyone would take an ADC with the old thornmail. IMHO the thornmail nerfs were needed, you can still shred an ADC with their completely imbalanced kits. (a lot of free early power with some %hp scalings is all you needed to kill a squishy in the first place) This simply makes it so that An adc can actually survive in a 1v1 with a tank if they build right, and make smart use of their abilities.

We have fundamentally different ideas of balance then. I don't think auto attack champions should beat anyone in a 1v1. I feel like their role is objective killing, not champion killing. If you want to kill champions, you pick a mage or assassin.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maximum Morde,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BHjE27Ig,comment-id=000300000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-09-26T23:38:29.413+0000)

We have fundamentally different ideas of balance then. I don't think auto attack champions should beat anyone in a 1v1. I feel like their role is objective killing, not champion killing. If you want to kill champions, you pick a mage or assassin.

Eh, this isn't exactly true. Mages and assassins deal burst damage, and tanks are meant to survive burst. Tanks are meant to die to sustained damage, which is fighters and marskmen. If marksmen weren't good at killing tanks, then tanks would never die unless you picked a fighter (and what happens if you lock in a tank and then the enemy team picks a tank?)

Anidan1 votes

Meanwhile, in the land of Draven's outrageous auto-attacks...

Nekolie6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maximum Morde,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BHjE27Ig,comment-id=000300000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-09-26T23:38:29.413+0000)

We have fundamentally different ideas of balance then. I don't think auto attack champions should beat anyone in a 1v1. I feel like their role is objective killing, not champion killing. If you want to kill champions, you pick a mage or assassin.

In the history of MOBAs, your melee/ranged ADC has always been your champion class that focuses on dishing out late game sustained damage. ADC aren't necessarily even the fastest at killing objectives when you have mages like TF who can take out towers super fast or jungers for dragon/baron. Mages have always fallen off late game making them bad choices to be your primary damage source and assassins are only good against taking out one target or they tend to be seen as overpowered.

There is a reason they are called carries. They scale better with items than any other role and carry the game if they manage to farm enough for them.

As a general rule though, mages and assassins are supposed to counter the carries. Tanks and bruisers generally counter mages and assassins. ADC then counter tanks and bruisers. The problem is when ADC can also counter mages and assassins too.

dannykun1 votes

This! thank you! at least you understand the role well enough.

dannykun2 votes

I said nothing about killing champions. I said that they were weak to burst, but should be much stronger as the fight draws out. Tanks counter burst because they can survive the initial blast, and can deal decent enough sustained damage that assassins and mages should die before their major CD's come back. However ADC's are meant to be the natural counter to Tanks, They Have high sustained damage, and should be dealing a lot of damage over time, given that ADC's Have shit scaling on almost all abilities, and inherently are made to use auto's to deal the most damage, it goes without saying that yes, Tanks should be able to be killed by ADC's, the longer the fight the more likely it should be that fully sustainable damage wins. Tanks and bruisers run out of steam after burst because they usually need a few things put together over a set amount of time to execute a successful kill. Think darius's passive, and rivens auto canceling q combo. This takes more than the 1-2 second burst a mage and assassin usually puts out, but if it goes past that, what's left? that's where the auto class champs should be punishing failed attempts to kill them, or cleaning up. THAT'S THEIR JOB, and in recent year's Riot has scaled that back, to the point that it's now almost pointless to take an ADC because an AD assassin can push almost equally as well, and can take care of themselves with all the mobility and survivability they are given.

Now the reason that Thornmail in its old form was Exceedingly oppressive is because it only affected one class, Ranged ADC's. It's not even oppressive to a Melee AD champ, only Ranged. This is because ADC's as a class MUST rely on auto's to deal damage, and the rest of their kit generally compliments their auto's to help them dish out damage, and probably a self peel or two. That's it. Melee usually has some sort of damage steriod, and it's usually in the form of Magic or true damage, giving them mixed damage that makes it hard to build against them, and makes them solid champions that melt using on hits to proc their damage steriod as much as possible. You must have the most warped mind to think that Something that needs more than 5 seconds to kill something is OP, because literally every other champ in the game can do that. ADC's are a very intelligently designed class, their job is to hang around and deal damage from a safe place, keep out of trouble long enough to clean up and push, and yes, just so you know, old thornmail was made for a time when you could build two bloodthirsters and have 40% lifesteal, you can't do that anymore, the maximum amount of lifesteal is around 47% and that's using items completely out of an ADC's appropriate build paths. Generally taking a hit for damage just to get around a completely outdated Item is beyond stupid. Thorns should help control Lifesteal, not make it so that you can stand there and watch them die because their auto's do more damage to them than you.

also just so you know, the math is wrong from OP. Thorns would do damage to an ADC according to their premitigated values, meaning if I hit using caitlyn's passive for 1000 damage. you would hurt cait for 300 magic damage, mitigated by her MR, and you would be hit for 1000 damage, mitigated by your armor. So assuming you are a Tank that built sunfire, thorns, and randuins, all of this being pre nerfs, you would have an added 225 armor, plus a base armor for a normal tank at level 12 which is about 65 (I took Sejuani's values just so you know and I won't add in masteries so you can understand the math first). That ends up at about 290, this gives you a total reduction of 75% (rounded down a percent and a half for cleanliness), giving you a whopping total of 250 damage from one auto. Now Caitlyn took 300 mitigated by her base MR of 30 which gives her a 25% reduction giving her 225 damage from that auto. If cait has a BT, she gets 20% of the 225 damage she delt, which is 45 health. Given the Effective health pool of 1475 (rounded a little down here but it won't matter because she'll still kill herself in the same amount of autos), Caitlyn will kill herself in 6-7 auto's assuming she continues to deal 1000 base damage on every auto. Sejuani here has a base health of 1740, and an additional 450 and 500 from randuins and sunfire, giving her an effective health pool of 2690, at 250 per auto, sejuani dies after caitlyn deals her 11th auto. Which never happened because Caitlyn died 5 auto's ago. Do you see why this is oppressive as all crap now? Riot Built vayne to get around this because thorns could easily make a normal tank Kill the ADC by Standing there. They didn't even have to use any of their abilities, the champs already going to kill themselves. This is exactly why thorns was nerfed the way it is right now. It's meant to control lifesteal, not kill anyone who auto's you with no consequence whatsoever.

Edit: I realise the values were a little extreme, but it's to show how powerful the old thorns was. The normal amount of time it would take for this to occur is about 15 auto's, but the tank would still have lived past the ADC anyway.

Xietnin2 votes

Tanks are having a hard time against full AD teams, what could we possibly do to help aid this issue? Think on the opposite spectrum. Nerf a highly efficient counter to hard armor, Last Whisper. So AD champions are forced to deal with tanks for a longer period of time because they opted in for an inefficient composition. AD assassins will have more trouble in some cases as well, but they also have Black Cleaver and aren't affected as much by Thornmail and Frozen Heart anyway. On the other hand, runes/masteries are overpowered, so Summoners pre-lvl30 might have no problem defending against AD. EDIT: Then there's also a direct nerf to all AD champions going full damage, which would hurt their lategame. Would this be a bad thing or a good thing for ADs to have less lategame than they do now? What do you think about how they would scale with less physical penetration through Last Whisper and how it correlates with AP damage Mages in the current lategame meta?

Photos of Ghosts2 votes

Got flamed for not building thornmail on Rammus on ARAM against Garen, Darius, Yi and Teemo.

SnowFall2 votes

It was nerfed so someone like Garen Darius wouldn't just build this and be unstoppable with item 3742 just because you can't kill them without killing yourself. It was nerfed so someone like Akali wouldn't just get this and kill ADs without penalty, they have to build more armor now and that is what they don't do because of nerf. And YES, it was a big FUCK YOU to all poor tanks who actually used this item a lot.

Shonjl2 votes

To be fair, Garen and Darius could very easily kill an ADC with ease even prior to Juggernaut. If Garen got on top of you, it was usually your death or you being forced to back, and Darius's hook and dunked you.

Its also kinda amusing you mention Akali when she doesn't need armor lol. Her ult was the ADC killer. Unless your entire team waited for Akali to come out and get you, ADC was dead period.

I just think people are overestimating how strong old Thornmail was. It was meant to counter Lifesteal and that was its job, if you didn't build Lifesteal, that was your own fault that you took full damage. Was it overbearring sometimes? Sure, then again, a TRistana being able to go from 10% hp to max in like 3 AAs is fair? Just don't attack the person with Thornmail nonstop and kill yourself, shoot them a few times then target someone else and get your health back.

Daedalus8712 votes

The damage on Thornmail wasn't supposed to be a damage source. It was supposed to counter ADC's life stealing back to full.

With that in mind, here are some changes.

15% of AA damage reflected Removed 25% bonus armor -> 40% bonus armor Doing Physical Damage against Thornmail applies Grievous wounds for 3 seconds.

Narsicus1 votes

It would seem that they focused thornmail to be better against a specific set of champions, namely those that go for high attack speed and use on hits to bolster damage.

This makes it more useful against ap/as champs like kayle but most importantly increases its power against traditional botrk users as that kind of on hit damage was completely ignored by thornmail before. These champs rarely pass 300 ad and often are closer to 200 so the amount of armor needed to be better isn't really that high.

I suppose the idea is that adcs shouldn't really be countered by defensive items but more by positioning and cc so these items should be focused more against the kind of fighter champs that you see running sated devourer and such(which btw should be multi-procing thornmail if I am reading their effects right).

Whether or not this in reality is a good design choice or if it actually succeeds at this goal I cant say for certain although the direction makes sense to me.

WolfBV1 votes

Well, assuming you get IE, BT, and a LW plus your base AD late game, using the difference between Orianna's late game ad of 84 and Mordekaiser's late game ad of 146, I'd say a normal auto is 311 damage. with crit and IE, that gets bumped up to 777.5 ad not he second auto. Assuming every second auto is a crit, that's about 544.25 ad damage per auto, before armor pen and armor. I'm probably wrong though since I based my average ad at late game on just the difference between Mords and Oriannas. Jesus, Mord has the highest AD scaling in the game.

Meep Man1 votes

On average, I get around 360 or so armor as Rammus plus 120 to 480 from my W. How much damage would it take to make the Thornmail a nerf then? On Malphite, I usually get upwards of 500 armor all the time.

DropFill4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Inept Maverick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BHjE27Ig,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2015-09-27T05:21:35.276+0000)

On average, I get around 360 or so armor as Rammus plus 120 to 480 from my W. How much damage would it take to make the Thornmail a nerf then? On Malphite, I usually get upwards of 500 armor all the time.

So you basically has no magic resist, and assuming this huge amount of armor, you don't have much health either nor tenacity. Basically against a full AD team, which is a bad comp anyway

Meep Man1 votes

{quoted}

So you basically has no magic resist, and assuming this huge amount of armor, you don't have much health either nor tenacity. Basically against a full AD team, which is a bad comp anyway

Actually, my build on Rammus is this:

item 3725 item 3047 item 3075 item 3068 item 3742 item 3001

If they have Yasuo instead of an AP mid, I get Randuin's instead of either Abysal or Deadman's based on the rest of their team. I get 17 magic resist from runes and masteries, excluding the bonuses from Adaptable Armor and the 10% bonus armor and magic resist boost. So, 52 base, 69 with runes and masteries, 119 with Abysal, and then am extra 10% bonus so 126 or so plus 4% of my armor difference since it will definitely be higher. (I would guess around 130-135 magic resist. Then there is my W that gives me 120, increased to 132, so about 267-268 magic resist while thats active. This excludes if there is a Locket or Banner on my team as well. Health wise, I get 400 plus 450 plus 600 plus base, and then the 36 from masteries and all of this increased by 15% from Cinderhulk with that being increased by 3% from masteries. Rammus base health is actually pretty low, Level 18 being 2112. So with just items thats 1450 bonus, so increased to 3562. 1450 increased by 15% is 1667 or a 217 bonus, so my health is now 3779. Then we increase this by 3% from Masteries, so... 3892 health give or take 1 or 2. So in total, I have... Armor wise, I get 22 from runes, 5 from masteries plus 10%, and then with items I get 220 or so from items and Rammus' base at Level 18 is about 109 last time I checked. So in total, about 380 armor, increased to 512 during W.

Health: 3892 Magic Resist: 132~ (267~ during W) Armor: 380 (512 during W) This is excluding bonuses from allies.

So, actually, I got pretty decent defenses, especially when also consider the fact that most magic damage is in spells and most will be targeting spells at people other than Rammus past the initial peel.

Malphite... I dont wanna get into that math right now. But, on average, I get around 140 magic resist on him with around 3000 health or so, plus his passive shield.

EDIT: Just realized I got Sunfire and Cinderhulk there, this actually doesnt impact too much, just giving me about 59 less health and 19 more armor.

My Waifu Vanilla1 votes

Except it is a buff for any one that is not going to crit you (Yi/Kallista/etc)

Darkwind1 votes

I mean, this isn't strictly true. Malphite can reach 1084 armor (with a ridiculous build, but regardless), which would require an auto attack with damage of ~1650 to do more damage with old thornmail. With a reasonable build (item 3075 item 3110 item 3143 item 3742 item 3047 item 3068 ), he hits 705 armor, which still requires an auto of damage 1000+ to deal more damage with old thornmail than new thornmail.

Not arguing that it's a nerf in general, but it's actually mostly a buff for malphite... assuming full ad tank mal, vs a team that that build makes sense against.

A Palmtop Tiger1 votes

They way I see it is that the new Thornmail is more effective against Devourer junglers and bruisers such as Irelia and Jax who rely on attack speed. Oftentimes, those champions will not do a lot of direct physical damage per attack but will do damage thanks to their on hit effects. With the new Thornmail scaling with armor and dealing a flat amount along with a small % of their damage, it will actually deal more damage to them than old Thornmail. However, this still does not address the issue that it an overall nerf since you primarily buy Thornmail to counter ADCs.

Dar Raksada1 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Palmtop Tiger,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BHjE27Ig,comment-id=0010,timestamp=2015-09-27T10:01:26.741+0000)

They way I see it is that the new Thornmail is more effective against Devourer junglers and bruisers such as Irelia and Jax who rely on attack speed. Oftentimes, those champions will not do a lot of direct physical damage per attack but will do damage thanks to their on hit effects. With the new Thornmail scaling with armor and dealing a flat amount along with a small % of their damage, it will actually deal more damage to them than old Thornmail. However, this still does not address the issue that it an overall nerf since you primarily buy Thornmail to counter ADCs.

I think their intention was to make thornmail not counter adcs anymore, it is now more of an anti devourer item as you said.

Can't say I agree with them, but that seems to be their intention.

Laustin Space1 votes

It was intended to be a heavy nerf for anyone building it with low armour so bruisers and assassins didn't feel so overbearing having next to no counter play for the adc's and a slight buff against on hit champions with little to no ad to help counter ap/attackspeed champions and the new sated devourer.

MAN OF INTELLECT1 votes

New thornmail math, just to people understand it is a nerf to ALL tanks

FTFY I read title at first and thought, "how does Vayne get nerfed by this?"

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