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A math. proof that Hexdrinker is broken and shouldn't be allowed to coexist with Nullifying Orb

Seviel Vorose··43 votes·2,609 views

I was in a Syndra vs Zed matchup. Both of us were lvl 10.

Syndra: item 3020 item 3802 item 3191 AP: 102 Magic penetration: 18 Armor: 96

Zed: item 3134 item 3155 AD: 145 Lethality: 12 Magic resistance: 77

I didn't expect him to answer to my poke, but i managed to keep 3 spheres up in the time when he ulted me and i was able to pull a 6 spheres ult.

Without damage mitigation, a 6 sphere ult with my stats would deal 662 magic damage. Since he had 77 magic resistance (42 base + 35 from hexdrinker), the final damage should have been 417. Hexdrinker at level 10 provides a shield for 200 magic damage. Considering that i had Sorcerer's Boots, the only really affordable item for magic penetration that early in the game, Hexdrinker alone protected Zed from 319 magic damage (119 from 35 magic resistance and 200 from a low cd shield). The damage from the close peak of Syndra's ult was literally halved from this 1300 item alone, going down to 343 from 662. Now, i don't wanna do the math for it, but i highly doubt item 3191 is any close to this, despite being a mage's only answer to Hexdrinker, which offers too much for an item you can rush so easily.

But that's not all. Nullifying Orb is obviously stacking with Hexdrinker, providing a shield for 90 magic damage. This means that Zed, with a single cheap item and a rune, was dealt 409 less magic damage (which is 1/3 of Zed's health) from the 536 damage i would have dealt without Hexdrinker, for a total of only 127 magic damage. My 6 spheres ult was close to being completely nullified.

Now, i won that fight. But to be honest, if that Zed was any good and had waited for the right moment, he would've killed me, and i would have had no answer to it. That's not outplaying, that's just having too much from a single item and a rune.

What should be done? It's easy. Remove the shield component and keep it only on item 3156 , buff the stats. item 3155 AD: 20->25 & MR: 35->55. Fixed.

And make nullifying orb adaptive.

Edit: calculations adjustments.

51 Comments

EkyonKun13 votes

But how else can poor Zed lane against mages :( it's not like he's manaless, has long range poke, burst, CSing under tower, wave clear, mobility, a slow and a form of invulnerability as well as above average MR. If he doesn't have hexdrinker he's useless :C

The Great Divide1 votes

Inb4 "All mages have higher winrates," and "Mages have cc and are better teamfighters, they're not supposed to win lane"

Vekkna11 votes

item 1036 350g / 35g per AD item 1033 450g / 18g per MR

item 3155 20AD, 35MR, shield 1300g - (20 x 35) = 600 600g - (35 x 18) = - 30

Hexdrinker's base stats alone are 102% gold efficient. The shield value is 110-280 and is worth 293g - 747g if fully absorbed. In other words, if the shield proc is fully absorbed, the gold efficiency of hexdrinker is 125% - 159%.

item 1052 435g / 21.75g per AP item 1029 item 1029 600 / 20g per armor

item 3191 20AP, 30AR 1200g - 600 = 600 600 - 435 = 165

Seeker's base stats on purchase are only 86% gold efficient. What about max stacks?

item 3191 35AP, 45AR 1200 - (35 x 21.75) = 761 761 - (45 x 20) = - 139

At max stacks, Seekers is 111% gold efficient.

DragonShea1 votes

{quoted}

item 1036 350g / 35g per AD item 1033 450g / 18g per MR

item 3155 20AD, 35MR, shield 1300g - (20 x 35) = 600 600g - (35 x 18) = - 30

Hexdrinker's base stats alone are 102% gold efficient. The shield value is 110-280 and is worth 293g - 747g if fully absorbed. In other words, if the shield proc is fully absorbed, the gold efficiency of hexdrinker is 125% - 159%.

item 1052 435g / 21.75g per AP item 1029 item 1029 600 / 20g per armor

item 3191 20AP, 30AR 1200g - 600 = 600 600 - 435 = 165

Seeker's base stats on purchase are only 86% gold efficient. What about max stacks?

item 3191 35AP, 45AR 1200 - (35 x 21.75) = 761 761 - (45 x 20) = - 139

At max stacks, Seekers is 111% gold efficient.

So what do you propose should be lowered? MR, the shield or both?

Vekkna6 votes

I think they need to change the shield mechanic on Hex. The passive proc at low HP is an idiot-proof ass-saver that makes it harder to play an AP and easier to play an AD. It completely distorts the matchup.

I think Hex is a necessary item that just needs a healthier shield. An active shield could be outplayed with cc, burst, or a pick. Or a smaller shield with shorter cooldown (like malphite passive) would be a healthy anti-poke tool for melee in matchups with long-range mages.

As Hex currently exists, it creates an enormous effective health gap in a lane matchup without a proportionate damage gap to justify its existence.

What I find most curious is that Riot repeatedly uses this cancerous passive life-saving model for ADs and refuses to use it for APs at all. You have Hex/Maw shield, Null Orb, and GA all usable by ADs to passively prevent death. APs have nothing but active items and spells to prevent death, which are useless during cc or when insta-gibbed.

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

Wasn't it said that they designed Hexdrinker so that melee AD assassins could buy it to help them with poke? In that case your idea to make it like Malphite's passive shield makes the most sense as that is more conducive towards dealing with poke than burst.

Lauchmelder1 votes

2 possibilities for Hexdrinker:

1.) Massively nerf the shield, make it scale into the game with it having the same stats as now at level 16. 2.) Remove the shield entirely and slightly buff MR on it.

DragonShea1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Shuriman God,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BEEw5q3x,comment-id=000b00000001,timestamp=2017-11-27T17:42:17.309+0000)

2 possibilities for Hexdrinker:

1.) Massively nerf the shield, make it scale into the game with it having the same stats as now at level 16. 2.) Remove the shield entirely and slightly buff MR on it.

I'd say nef the shield. That is the core identity of hexdrinker.

Tortunga6 votes

Those changes would make item 3155 148% gold efficient stat wise. That's 12% higher then a fully stacked item 3191.

This won't fix anything, it just makes hexdrinker slightly weaker against burst mages, while a lot stronger against poke/sustain mages.

Terchio2 votes

Yeah, but with no effective HP on the item, it loses a lot of its boost if someone were to build like a mid assassin does. This Hexdrinker would probably be more effective in certain top matchups instead, but at least that top champion would need some effective HP to make use of the heavy MR boost.

That said, the numbers could drop slightly, as well. Overall, with the new rune, the Hexdrinker passive is just not necessary anymore (if it ever was?).

taleofsonata5 votes

She hit her full combo on 70% hp Zed, and he survived that. Clap clap clap He got hit by 2 Q, W,E, R and survived.... and syndra is considered a burst mage with the highest damage dealing combo in the game. Claps Claps.

6Sfool5 votes

Opportunity cost. He did not get "free" shields. He had to buy an item for one shield and take a rune for another. Plus as soon as that went off he has nothing protecting him.

AP needs some love but if a champ has both passives up don't expect to just delete him in one combo. You have to whittle him down and make the shields expire, or have someone gank.

Thefrostyviking17 votes

Except the issue here is that a Syndra with the added preparation of 3 extra spheres could not kill a 40% health Zed with her ultimate.

Despite being supposed be the number 2 best burst mage in the entire game.

If she can't kill him at that point then nothing can, he is slippery enough to get out safely regardless of what happens when she ults, and he doesn't need to run until she does since his barriers will save him.

And after activating his shields Syndra will have nothing left, because cooldowns, while Zed can auto attack for decent damage, because AD.

And she can't poke him down to proc his shields without him trading back, and Zed also does damage, enough that Syndra can't afford to let him do it more than once even with potions while he can afford it....2? 3? Times depending on potions.

So like, despite OP playing that entire scenario pretty much perfectly there was no way to kill Zed despite playing the nr 2 burst mage in league, despite the starting point of her burst being 40% of his health while she had a fully charged ultimate, altho she did not have her E or W.

Seems legit.

ModAcademy Kayn2 votes

Any decent Syndra who can hit a W stun knows how to stun, E and then back off, before the stun wears off though. And if he's buying pots, he's delaying his own damage/roam.

Thefrostyviking9 votes

And yet all it takes is a single good all in should Syndra make the slighest mistake and she will have to burn summoners to get out alive.

This much even a decent Zed can do.

6Sfool4 votes

The video starts partway into the combo. She already landed her stun, and he was at about 75% health at that point. Just ballparking, I can assume that he was at least 80-85% health before this. Syndra didn't stack hard AP (she had item 3191 item 3020 item 3802 , which is a big mix of stats, and a total of 102 AP). Are you telling me that A syndra should be able to kill a Zed at 85% health with one combo despite:

  1. She's not building straight damage
  2. He built defensively and took a defensive rune
  3. She didn't proc an offensive keystone

That's asking for some serious damage.

Thefrostyviking17 votes

I am indeed saying that Syndra, with a 6* spheres ultimate alone, should be able to fully finish a Zed sitting at 40% when she starts ulting.

That isn't just one combo, that´s a total of 12 seconds worth of Q's time alone, for she had 3 of them.

You're telling me, that despite preparing her setup for 12 seconds it's unreasonable that Syndra could not kill a 40% health Zed with her ultimate and auto attacks?

Heck she barely did a little more than half his remaining health.

And that was her only chance to kill him, had he just backed out instead of ulting in he could have recalled and gotten back pretty quickly and kept charging on her.

And any of Syndras mistakes would cost her summoners or a kill.

For had the roles been reversed, with Zed jumping in with his R and Q on a syndra with 40% health then she would be dead 100%.

But instead she didn't just fail to get anything outa him except his ultimate, she burned her own ultimate and barrier to ensure he wouldn't kill her!.

And his hexdrinker will be back up before her ultimate is.

How in the world is this even remotely fair or balanced?

The Yetii Rider1 votes

Zed is a duelist. Syndra is not. Why is this so hard for everyone to understand? Assassins should have the advantage against mages in a 1 on 1 fight, because assassins have to kill mages after a certain point in the game. The mage is better at 1v5ing, because the mage has giant AOE effects that she can launch from across the lane. The assassin is better at killing someone in a 1 on 1 fight. They are DIFFERENT CHAMPIONS with DIFFERENT ROLES and they are not supposed to be equals. Holy shit.

EkyonKun7 votes

Did you honestly just defend a Zed being 6-sphere Syndra ulted at 40% hp not dying? Holy shit. I expect to get deleted at double that health as anyone else besides a tank.

6Sfool1 votes

Interesting. OP did the math saying that premitigation it was 662 damage. 40% health for him was about 575, that ult wouldn't kill him even if he had no shields. So you would expect to die from about 1100 health if you were anyone else?

AMYS GRAVE3 votes

The syndra also laid down 2 qs, an E, and 3 auto attacks, so yeah, it is perfectly reasonable to expect him to die in that scenario.

Ahri Inari1 votes

Zed is not a duelist. Bruiser like Fiora, Darius, trundle are. Revert the situation with leblanc or fizz vs corki and you'll get the same result because of hexdrinker and nullyfing orb.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

Assassins are duelists by nature. They excel in the 1v1, more than mages do.

And yes, AP assassins getting screwed by this is an unfortunate side effect that genuinely raises the question of "should AP assassins even exist?" It would be much less of a headache for everyone if Fizz, LeBlanc, Evelynn, Ekko and Katarina were all AD champions that prioritized lethality instead.

Ahri Inari1 votes

Well, it's a kick to the face for all people maining ap assasin, they are beeing forget for like literraly just zed (not much people complain about talon) and newcomer marksman mid like lucian, jayce and corki.

You are generalizing all mage for burst/control mage. Champion like swain, vladimir, malzahar and other battle mage are pretty strong at dueling and if build right will beat ad assasin. I agree assasin are better at dueling than some other class but again, assasin are not duelist.

Thefrostyviking4 votes

Except Syndra is a burst mage with a focus ON KILLING A SINGLE TARGET, and she is the best one after veigar in the entire game.

Meaning that in this entire game barring veigar and nasus she has the best burst you can find with her full setup.

The fact, that despite having 12 entire seconds to setup her big ultimate damage she failed to kill a squishy assassins with 40% health left.

Even if he survived that it shouldn't have been by more than him having more than a hundred health left, yet he got out with 300.

And yet, Zed, an assassin, a squishy extremely mobile anti carry champion, with great burst as well, not only survived but he secured his dominance by burning enemy barrier and ulti which have longer CD's then what he does.

The fact that a mage with that focus and specialization could not kill Zed in such a situation proves that something is terribly wrong!

Her ulti did 200 damage to his health! With a 12 seconds of preparation!

Despite it being able to supposedly do 680 damage at that level and AP!

200 damage!

How in the worlds is this reasonable?

The Yetii Rider2 votes

"And yet, Zed, an assassin, a squishy extremely mobile anti carry champion, with great burst as well, not only survived but he secured his dominance by burning enemy barrier and ulti which have longer CD's then what he does. "

See, this is where you are making the mistake. You assume that Zed is squishy, when in fact he has itemized into a defensive item (item 3155 ) and a defensive rune (Nullifying Orb), sacrificing damage while doing so. So he is not a squishy champion. In the same vein, Syndra had not fully itemized into burst, she had a weak defensive item that limited her damage (item 3191 ) which is likely one of the main reasons she survived the fight.

If Zed was full glass cannon Domination + Inspiration with a Duskblade and he survived that ult, yes, I would be with you in saying there's something wrong. But there's not. He itemized for defense, he spec'd his pre-game into defense, and Syndra did not play around that defense by waiting to ult until his shields were down.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

See, this is where you are making the mistake. You assume that Zed is squishy, when in fact he has itemized into a defensive item (item 3155 ) and a defensive rune (Nullifying Orb), sacrificing damage while doing so. So he is not a squishy champion. In the same vein, Syndra had not fully itemized into burst, she had a weak defensive item that limited her damage (item 3191 ) which is likely one of the main reasons she survived the fight.

Even if she exchanged the gold from seeker to AP she´d at most have a item 3108 to replace it since she already bought item 3020 and item 3802 .

How is her itemization lacking damage for her level?

If Zed was full glass cannon Domination + Inspiration with a Duskblade and he survived that ult, yes, I would be with you in saying there's something wrong. But there's not. He itemized for defense, he spec'd his pre-game into defense, and Syndra did not play around that defense by waiting to ult until his shields were down.

Neither had that much gold.

Syndra had no way to actually proc his defenses without her ultimate, and honestly given it's supposed damage it should have been enough to kill him with a 6 sphere's ultimate+3 auto attacks.

Yet it only did 200 damage, despite using a ability that should have done 700 before magic resist , and 3 auto attacks.

Legit.

Chembaron Yamada4 votes

I don't see them making Nullifying Orb adaptive. As far as I know, they considered doing so, but in testing it turns out that Nullifying Orb became absolutely mandatory. And that's not what you want from these runes.

Terchio2 votes

Mandatory? I would like more details on this. There's always a threshold for anything, so if it were mandatory, just drop the numbers until it's not anymore. The fact it turns mandatory moreso points to the rune being overpowered as is, but still not essential on builds since it's situational. That shouldn't be considered healthy.

hhaavviikk4 votes

{quoted}

I don't see them making Nullifying Orb adaptive. As far as I know, they considered doing so, but in testing it turns out that Nullifying Orb became absolutely mandatory. And that's not what you want from these runes.

but wouldn't you say it's already mandatory when you're fighting a mage mid? it's so incredibly good

Chembaron Yamada2 votes

Depends who I am fighting. If I am playing Orianna for example against a matchup I am comfortable with, I rather get the Manaflow Band to help out my mana sustain.

Or playing as Ekko I oftenly prefer to take the Ultimate Hat to go back in time more often (sweet sweet nostalgia) and I feel confident fighting most mages as Ekko anyway.

Catastrop3 votes

That's honestly disgusting, if I didn't have any context on this scenario I'd have thought this was a bug.

Sire Hippington3 votes

seeing that vid, i really don't think you have a reason to complain. You land your full combo on zed and he gets away with ~20% hp, probably less, and the two shields are now on CD. Zed lands his full combo on you and you survive with ~40% hp.... sure, if he used his ult to dodge yours

Given that Syndra has lots of ranged aoe and a very potent longranged aoe-stun while zed prettymuch is all about the all-in with some poke that falls of past laneing, i think it's showing that hextrinker in it's current state has to exist to keep asssasin any viable vs mages like syndra.

Yes, just from the items, hextrinker seems to be OP, but items alone don't mean much, mages usually have the upperhand in laneing till hextrinker is bought, and even then it's still not bad for the mage in some cases like syndra, while mages generally also offer more utillity and aoe for teamfights and petter poke.

I get that ap itemisation feels bad, especially compared to ad, but this doesn't make ad beeing stronger than ap as most ap's have stronger kits, which also alows them to be more funktional on low gold.

And speaking of broken items:item 3165, just saying....

Seviel Vorose5 votes

Before i hit my combo, he was already at about 80% of his health. When i ulted him with 6 spheres, he had 550 hp. I even auto attacked him twice. He had about 300 hp afterwards. Imagine if the situation was reversed. He made a misplay by engaging on me while so low, and Hexdrinker saved him by denying the close peak of my burst. I had nothing left after it. If i made this misplay, i would have died.

Ahri Inari3 votes

And speaking of broken item item 3147 , just saying... at least compare equivalent item. Hexdrinker is comparable to seeker, not morello

Lauchmelder3 votes

https://i.gyazo.com/19121dfb525a746176a61d50406a9e29.png

item 3076 -> was OP because it negated auto attackers too much

item 3155 -> is fine because it negates mages

Find the error (hint, it's consistency)

Hella Kaiser3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Seviel Vorose,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BEEw5q3x,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-11-26T23:44:01.730+0000)

And make nullifying orb adaptive.

yes plz

DragonShea2 votes

Took people long enough to realise that. Nullifying orb was a mistake, nothing more needs to be said.

Nyarlathοtep2 votes

Not really. Nullifiying orb is here to help the loss of mr runes. Hexdrinker is a mistake.

CatSith2 votes

They dont need to buff hex drinker it was good before nullifying orb came out xD

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

Why weren't u smart enough to run Iron skin or conditionning ??

Catastrop4 votes

What exactly was that supposed to do in this scenario? The damage he's taking from Zed is not the issue, it's the damage that Zed isn't.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

???

He's complaining about the combo hexdrinker + orb. But he compare it just to item, its stupid.

GelsominoKiller1 votes

Nullifying orb should be adaptive and work like stopwatch: passively giving you a component item with the hexdrinker (adaptive) passive, to be built into hexdrinker/maw, sterak gage and a new AP counterpart.

Shaydrox1 votes

I for one never understood why the item should give more MR than Null Magic Mantle, it's component. Give the items a bonus AD and magic damage shield as reward for upgrading from the Mantle, seems simple to me. Besides that would still keep its use against burstmages, but not stop poke/dps much since the MR would be low. Would therefore still allow you to poke targets down, but you'd be required to do so a bit more before being able to burst the target.

Ahri Baka1 votes

Sadly yeah , it's op , but also that Zed was just bad , he was hella bad since he went with hex drinker , he can just go more lithality and domination runes, he can 1 shoot you without ult at that lvl

Power Cosmic1 votes

The last thing they need to do is buff, AP mages, the safest champs in the game (even indirectly by changing hex). If anything, look into if Zed or similar assassins need to be brought into line.

Kats Pajamas1 votes

  1. syndra players are disgusting, you are gross to even complain, i feel like I'm molesting children when I don't even aim 3 Q's because that's not even important then point and click R people with 2/0 score and delete them from it. For reference, you're mad your level 1 Ultimate didn't do more than 630(140%) scale damage and delete a level 10 Zed. Try to look at their healthbar? You have like hundreds of damage points you're dealing with here. The entire point of 'point and click' is that you need 0 skill to kill them, if you can look at the health bar and understand what you're seeing. The first step to LEARNING SYNDRA would maybe be calculating damage. You wouldn't have even killed him with no spell shield at all, and a bonus auto, congratulations, you're complaining about nothing.

  2. for 500 gold cheaper, you could have actually finished an item, say, a item 3135 then used the rest for a book, and you would then have identical AP with 40% additional pen. This would result in 140 more damage, near the most you could actually do with it, and you still wouldn't have killed him.

HideInGranny1 votes

Why did you post the same thing twice?

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