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The LCS jungle champion pool is awful and boring.

LegitBusinessman··68 votes·4,788 views

I'm really, really super glad that they nerfed Jungle Hecs clear speed. Hecarims been op in the jungle for a really, really, really long time. The last thing I would want is for another jungler to be stronger than the 4 main junglers in the pro scene - Gragas, Elise, Rek'Sai, and Nidalee. After all, anyone who watches LCS regularly is totally not bored at all with seeing these 4 champs as being the main jungle pool for.... over a year and a half. I wish that was hyperbole or exaggerated. But it's not. But that's ok. It never gets boring or stale having the jungle meta be the same 4 champs over and over and over. A year and a half is not enough time to be considered 'in the meta'. This is why I'm extremely glad that Hecarim got nerfed as fast as he did, these champs need another 12 months at least for us to really understand the versatility and playmaking they bring to the table. But most of all, a new champion in the jungle would probably be too much for my fragile mind, and it would disappointing to see the main 4 pushed out by a newcomer, as I am in no way bored watching them over and over, month after month, the same champs every. single. game.

I love it.

77 Comments

Ralanr16 votes

Kinda wish some pros would play weaker champions to showcase how much help certain champions actually need.

But that's a stupid idea to support diversity.

Edit: I have no idea why I'm getting upvoted. Either the idea is stupid and people agree, or it's the other thing.

Frius1 votes

they play for money not for kids fun ,and riot be like fuck 100 rest champions ,30 champ meta is fine.

Ralanr1 votes

I know. Hence why they'd never do something like that.

Doesn't mean I don't wish the pros would bring a middle finger to Riot failure to support diversity by showing how weak other options are on the big screen.

It's more of a fictional climax than an actual possibility. A pro could ruin their career by doing that, even if they planned on retiring after worlds.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

Kinda wish some pros would play weaker champions to showcase how much help certain champions actually need.

But that's a stupid idea to support diversity.

Edit: I have no idea why I'm getting upvoted. Either the idea is stupid and people agree, or it's the other thing.

i think they started to consider the juggernaut rework when some chinese guy got shit on playing garen in a tournament and facetanked by a kog maw. its pretty sad that this is what it takes.

considering that hes again in the same situation after thy overbuffed lifesteal and marksmen items with their update maybe we can get the guy to play him again...

Ralanr1 votes

Overpowered in pro=nerfs.

Underpowered in pro=rework if it is ever played.

Which a pro probably wouldn't pick an underpowered champion. Don't they just go for whichever is the most broken at the moment?

Kubox11 votes

At least three of those use that power to cause some chaos and gank, which makes for interesting games.

Nidalee is basically a mobile Nunu as far as LCS goes. Any player using her spends the entirety of his time in the enemy jungle and simply shows up in lanes to throw Qs.

TheSingularity10 votes

Unfortunately it is necessary due to how snowbally the meta is. Rek sai can stop fights from ever starting. Gragas can disengage effectively. Elise is simply a safe pick and the most reliable pre 6 diver in the game. Nidalee offers objective control and siege potential that the others do not.

It's the same with lane swaps. Pros fear a game snowballing out of control. So they slow it down and lane swap to get through a delicate early game with some gold to boot.

Then add in these safe picks in the jungle that only make this approach safer.

In order for a broader champ pool to open up. Damage creep must be addressed to lessen snowballing. But towers are being looked at ( but for the wrong reasons)

welovegag2 votes

{quoted}

Unfortunately it is necessary due to how snowbally the meta is. Rek sai can stop fights from ever starting. Gragas can disengage effectively. Elise is simply a safe pick and the most reliable pre 6 diver in the game. Nidalee offers objective control and siege potential that the others do not.

It's the same with lane swaps. Pros fear a game snowballing out of control. So they slow it down and lane swap to get through a delicate early game with some gold to boot.

Then add in these safe picks in the jungle that only make this approach safer.

In order for a broader champ pool to open up. Damage creep must be addressed to lessen snowballing. But towers are being looked at ( but for the wrong reasons)

But its boring enough to watch lcs farming for 30 mins...even with elise jungle;

Earl Eulrich1 votes

the thing is...it´s not necessary because early snowball is an issue in pro-play: most pro-players are pretty good in laning defensive and respecting the jungler, so there aren´t that many actual gank-opportunities in high-level pro-play (maybe treat yourself and watch the Splyce-Fnatic Game 2 that occured just a few minutes earlier today, really a brilliant showing of how to handle a jungler that is set out to snowball) + laneswaps usually mean that you don´t get any gank off pre minute 10 anyway.

the real problem is that all these champions don´t only gank really hard, they also farm impressivly fast - which is far more important in the current jungle than being a good early ganker, as enables you to be where you need to be in the first place. It´s the very reason you see gragas rush the jungle ludens every damn time because it enables him a lot more to keep up in farm with his opponents than cinderhulk would - even if all he wants to be for the team is being a tank.

KvotheAdem9 votes

Thank you for making this post.

Fucking so damned sick of the meta junglers I DON'T EVEN WATCH PRO LEAGUE ANYMORE.

And why? It feels like the same stale shit all the time.

Everytime I see a meta jungler it just makes me a little bit sick inside. Why can't we have interesting picks like Lee sin Kha'zix etc etc.

P.S: Seeing Gragas, Elise, Kindred and Graves in the jungle right now makes me a little sick inside. Kindred and Graves I don't mind so much simply because they haven't been in meta as long. Elise, Gragas, Rek'sai and Nidalee.. I don't think I would mind if I never saw one in pro again.

Please change up the scene!

welovegag1 votes

{quoted}

Thank you for making this post.

Fucking so damned sick of the meta junglers I DON'T EVEN WATCH PRO LEAGUE ANYMORE.

And why? It feels like the same stale shit all the time.

Everytime I see a meta jungler it just makes me a little bit sick inside. Why can't we have interesting picks like Lee sin Kha'zix etc etc.

P.S: Seeing Gragas, Elise, Kindred and Graves in the jungle right now makes me a little sick inside. Kindred and Graves I don't mind so much simply because they haven't been in meta as long. Elise, Gragas, Rek'sai and Nidalee.. I don't think I would mind if I never saw one in pro again.

Please change up the scene!

Back in the days where insec lee sin and many more fun junglers with good ganks are funt to watch but nowadays, its just like boring

Rossendale1 votes

{quoted}

Back in the days where insec lee sin and many more fun junglers with good ganks are funt to watch but nowadays, its just like boring

Actually, the reason for that is everyone in general got better at the game. I'm pretty sure the "insec" days were back in season 2/3 where even the pros at that time would be considered trash nowadays. It's also why you see less of Faker making "pr0 plays" and dominating matches because the pro scene has grown and the players are far better mechanically as well as decision-making wise.

welovegag1 votes

Thats what makes the game boring. We dont see plays made anymore unlike in the old days. Jungler goes farm camps for like 20 mins; "diving" while making 4 tps both from top and mid for no reason at all is just stupid to watch; every players are just waiting for snowball and wait till late game; mid game is having few skirmishing while not much fun to watch as watching a jayce snap off 1/3 health of adc; or karthus ult U just dont see much fund champs anymore like its always rek sai jungling or elise

General Esdeath 1 votes

{quoted}

And why? It feels like the same stale shit all the time.

swap lanes, invade each others jungle. top lane tp to the adc and jungler follows, take first turret ResidentSleeper

Hyrum Graff1 votes

{quoted}

Thank you for making this post.

Fucking so damned sick of the meta junglers I DON'T EVEN WATCH PRO LEAGUE ANYMORE.

And why? It feels like the same stale shit all the time.

Everytime I see a meta jungler it just makes me a little bit sick inside. Why can't we have interesting picks like Lee sin Kha'zix etc etc.

P.S: Seeing Gragas, Elise, Kindred and Graves in the jungle right now makes me a little sick inside. Kindred and Graves I don't mind so much simply because they haven't been in meta as long. Elise, Gragas, Rek'sai and Nidalee.. I don't think I would mind if I never saw one in pro again.

Please change up the scene!

Does nobody else remember last year, when it was this exact argument for a different four champs?

blfUvZ8Ybu7 votes

We should see Zac, Khazix, Rengar, Wukong, Jarvan, Sejuani, Nocturne, Nunu, Voli, Shyvana.

Where are this champions?

LCS Jungle champion pool is very bad, deficient.

TWITCHTV ERONATE2 votes

I don't know about you but I would never want volibear to be a popular pick lol agreed with the rest though

Xoshi1 votes

Voli will never be a popular pick because he has too many clear weaknesses that are easy to abuse

LankPants1 votes

Where are this champions?

Every time one of them becomes remotely viable Riot guts them off the face of the earth.

No idea why, with the exceptions of Rengar and Nunu who just need reworks they're all fine champions and seeing them occasionally would be far better than seeing the same 5 or so champs over and over.

runedara6 votes

There was kindred and graves for a bit aswell but I agree the jungle is always reksai Elise Gragas. Think they should do a jungle rework next.

ModAcademy Kayn7 votes

Think they should do ANOTHER jungle rework next

Unless you mean a jungle rework for Jungle champions, but that's another thing in general

TurquoiseYoshi3 votes

It isn't a balance problem, it's a design problem (at least for everyone except Nidalee, she's just weird). Gragas, Rek'Sai, and Elise are made so that early game, their base damages and kit are great for ganks, and late game, they become a utility tank. Because of this, they will always be solid picks in the pros unless some FOTM pick shows up, like Olaf/Hecarim recently and Kindred/Graves a while back.

LankPants2 votes

Gragas, Rek'Sai, and Elise are made so that early game, their base damages and kit are great for ganks, and late game, they become a utility tank.

You should add Lee Sin to this list. Even although he's not at the top of the meta right now he's still the champion who exemplifies this far more than any other ever has.

TurquoiseYoshi1 votes

True. Although since he is forced towards Warrior early, his tanking is pretty meh until he buys a few items and sells Warrior later on.

Xoshi1 votes

Lee gets outclassed by too many champs to be added to that list

LankPants1 votes

The fact Lee gets outclassed currently isn't important, it's what he does when he is in the meta that is. When Lee is in the meta he bends it and warps it to the point that any champion who isn't capable of dealing with Lee, jungle or otherwise goes unplayed. This is the exact same thing champs like Elise and Nidalee do but Lee was far worse when he was competitive.

Lee literally defined competitive play for 3 years, there's a reason why immobile champions were so rarely in the meta from the end of season 2 until mid season 5, none of them could deal with Lee's kick-flash BS so they were unplayable in any game where there was a threat of Lee being picked.

Xoshi1 votes

Lee will never be god tier again unless they buff him insanely. There are too many champs that do what he does better. Why play Lee when you can play Gragas? Better base damage, and his ult can "insec" people just like lee. Only reason is if you're a better Lee. Rek Sai, Graves, Elise, etc. all pretty much do what he does better and more reliably

LankPants1 votes

Lee will become god tier again, my bet's on quite soon. Riot's nerfing Nid on the next patch and I doubt their going to leave Elise and Rek'sai untouched much longer. Once these champs are out of the way Lee becomes the best early agro jungler again, he's already picked sporadically even with these champs present without them he'd be a pick/ban champ.

I also think that claiming Lee won't be picked again is quite naïve, he's a champion who's kit is an insanely good fit for competitive play, 3 years of uninterrupted dominance shows that.

Xoshi1 votes

and I doubt their going to leave Elise and Rek'sai untouched much longer

Lmfao what? You're either a low elo player or a non jungle main or both if you think they will nerf Elise and Rek Saii. Both their win rates are nothing special. They're played because they're versatile.

I also think that claiming Lee won't be picked again is quite naïve, he's a champion who's kit is an insanely good fit for competitive play,

I think you're just a moron who hasn't played Lee ever in a good enough level to understand what position he is in. Champs like Elise, Rek Sai, Kindred, Gragas and Graves mean that Lee Sin will never be as strong as he once was. His mobility is not that amazing anymore. His early game is nothing special compared to these champs. And he requires a shit ton of skill unlike these champs ( the closest being elise). As long as these champs are balanced Lee will never become a god tier champ unless he's buffed a shit ton. Using the past is simply stupid. None of these champs existed or were as strong before as Lee except maybe Elise who was nerfed hard. Right now we have champs who simply outclass him and are easier to play.

And you have no clue if you think they're going to nerf Elise and Rek Sai. Both are balanced completely right now.

EVEN if Riot did for some reason lose their mind and nerfed those two champs. Lee wouldn't become magically good. The champ that would be god tier is Gragas. The other champs that would rise would probably be Fiddle, Skarner, Sej, and Rammus

LankPants1 votes

Lmfao what? You're either a low elo player or a non jungle main or both if you think they will nerf Elise and Rek Saii. Both their win rates are nothing special. They're played because they're versatile.

Damn fine strawman but I'm both slightly higher rank than you and a jungle main.

Winrates aren't a very good indicator of balance, a champion with a 50% winrate isn't inherently balanced. If Lee had a 50% winrate for example he'd be one of the most broken champs in the game. It's unreasonable to expect harder to play champs to be at the same winrate as easier champs.

Right now we have champs who simply outclass him and are easier to play.

I'd contest Elise and Nidalee being far easier than Lee, but either way that's completely unimportant to pro play.

And you have no clue if you think they're going to nerf Elise and Rek Sai. Both are balanced completely right now.

Pros don't spam balanced champions. Their job is to win games, the best way for them to do this is to always pick the most powerful champions.

Using the past is simply stupid.

Yes, it's far better to look at solo queue winrate in relation to competitive play than to look at competitive play. Solo queue is completely unimportant in relation to pro play, there's a moderate correlation between strong picks but next to no correlation between strong competitive picks and solo winrates.

The other champs that would rise would probably be Fiddle, Skarner, Sej, and Rammus

Firstly no, there is no real information to suggest these champs would be powerful, it's been rare for tank junglers to be competitively strong and they only tend to be played when they're overtuned. Fiddle has almost never been a viable competitive pick, he was last played as a support for around 2 patches in S3 I believe.

Past that point a competitive meta with these champions is inherently self-destructive. Packing that many junglers with weak early games into a single meta inherently raises the value of any early game champions. With that many invade vulnerable junglers seeing play you'd expect to see champs like Lee, Elise or even Shyvana crop up to counter them.

You can't look at competitive play as if it's at all like solo queue, it's not.

USG Failsawce2 votes

Ya man I totally feel you... and it's a good thing too, that the rest of the world doesn't have to play the same exact game as those LCS guys or anything, and have to deal with retarded OP hecarim in our own matches. just so that YOU can not be bored of LCS.

..oh wait

LegitBusinessman8 votes

{quoted}

Ya man I totally feel you... and it's a good thing too, that the rest of the world doesn't have to play the same exact game as those LCS guys or anything, and have to deal with retarded OP hecarim in our own matches. just so that YOU can not be bored of LCS.

..oh wait

Pretty sure during this whole 'omg Hec so stronk' frenzy I saw like less than 10 Hecarims.

option paralysis1 votes

I stopped watching the lcs like a year ago, I'm not that hyped about it at all like before, same champs over and over again... Even views on twitch dropped hard, last year it was like 300-400k for every NA match, now it's like 50-100k right ?

Xoshi1 votes

THey have 2 streams now

Blåbæret1 votes

The problem is that most of these junglers aren't overpowered either, it's just that they fit well into their team comps. I'd like to see Gragas nerfed though.

PiVoRx1 votes

I would like to see MasterYi for once in LCS, i really do.. its like he doesnt even exist in this game.

blkKalameet1 votes

because he's shut down hard by coordinated teams. he brings nothing to the game but more damage, offering no utility for the rest of the team.

Scramrail1 votes

But how can they do that without seriously impacting lower tier play? If they make other junglers stronger so they can compete with the big 4 you always see in pro play, then those buffed junglers would probably end up running rampages throughout the lower elos because of how strong they would be. Im not sure nerfing the big 4 would be the right track either but who knows.

Is riot going to have to split game balance between the pro scene and the rest of the game so they can properly balance certain aspects? Sounds pretty dramatic to me, but it would likely help them get a more diverse pool of champions into the LCS I think because they wouldn't have to worry about how their changes would impact the non-pros.

THE RlVER KlNG1 votes

Take jungle out of the title and it's still a true statement.

Masterkerfuffle1 votes

Just saying, Hecarim was universally considered trash-tier by the community until the ghost and Trinity Force buffs that came just a few patches ago.

Ryzing2Diamond1 votes

Most of the junglers you mentioned are only good in LCS, though. I've never lost/won a game against/with a jungle Nidalee/Gragas, and that's in Plat.

Sassmast3r1 votes

The LCS is awful and boring

Kingnewgameplus1 votes

Coming from somebody who doesn't watch the lcs, when your playing for money, you are going to pick the most reliable shit. You wouldn't want to risk becoming useless as kha when you can pick gragas, who doesn't do as much damage, but will be useful no matter what happened in that specific game. If I had to fight somebody for 100 bucks and had the choice between a katana, nunchucks, and a magnum, I'm gonna choose the magnum. It might not be as flashy or cool as the first 2, but it's gonna get me results.

FakeGravity1 votes

To be fair to even when they pick something out of the ordinary the lane swap strategy make both teams play their own game for the half part of the game

JerulEon1 votes

I agree. The only reason why they are meta in competitive is that they can jump over walls and have good mobility or CC. There are plenty of junglers who are tanky or strong enough to be played. They could always play Sejuani Zac JarvanIV too but that's just my opinion.

Plus the last jungler Kindred was nerfed to the ground.

100T iLL1 votes

why are you watching lcs during season 6?

TBakes1 votes

I want some Amumu Diana Fiddlesticks JarvanIV Khazix MasterYi Nocturne Shyvana Shaco Rengar Rammus Skarner Vi Udyr Warwick Volibear XinZhao Zac

Tobias Brackner1 votes

tbh this is the fault of competitive. They look at some weird math and go THEY ARE THE BEST PICK EVERY GAME and don't want to actually think about team composition and using certain champion's strengths.

Fuck the only reason they pick Reksai is she has good early dmg and so they can play scared with her Tremor Sense AND I'VE SEEN GAMES WHERE THEY DON'T EVEN USE HER EARLY DMG.

LCS doesn't play to win, they play to not lose.

ForgiveColour1 votes

Deal with it pros play to win. There will also be the s tier champion for them

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