Vayne's identity vs kit doesn't make sens

Ahristocats··12 votes·2,148 views

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/img/champion/splash/Vayne_0.jpg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VJCZhaG_tU

I know that vayne is a delicate topic on board because we have people hating vayne and people with the "ADC in 2017 lul" "adc are the healthiest classe" But let's try for a few minutes to use reasoning. I started to get interest in playing vayne and in the champion but i quickly realised with all those games played that there was a problem, a very visible problem if you play vayne. Silver bolts at this moment doesn't acheive anything. The 3rd hit of vayne will deal bonus true damage based on the enemy HP, and here so much problems arrive.

To begin with the topic, what is vayne's identity? And to answer to this question people have no way to find out the answer but to play vayne themselves. it isn't the ability to kill tanks We have so much hypercarries that can kill tanks as fast as she can, it doesn't matter how with true damage, with what steroid ect... they will still kill tanks. Vayne is not a special snowflake in this matter. No, What vayne has that the others hypercarries don't is her ability to stick to a target, to chase a target kind of like a skirmisher. She's the best at chasing a target because of her passive+low cooldown Q, (example at 1:37 and 2:00) and even kalista can't do this unless the target is at a low range. What vayne also bring is a strong duelist ability, she's a direct counter to duelists like Jax Zed because of her low cooldown tumble, her insane single-target damage and stealth

So what was the original point? silver bolts does nothing to improve this identity. One can think that it allows her to kill tanks, but it's false because vayne can already destroy tanks without her W. Her Q+R bonus AD, her 4% attack speed/lvl all of that combined with 250% crit that interacts with Q is enough to kill tanks, and if you don't believe me you can watch the video above. Unless you're against Alistar you won't need your true damage, champion.gg says that vayne does 89% of her damage as physical damage, the 11% remaining is true damage which means that if you have 2500 hp, she's going to deal on average 275 damage, this can be explained by the fact that her physical damage is too high and the true damage needs 3 hits to be triggered, while also taking in account the fact that vayne maxes her W second which means that she's going to deal 12% of your hp at level 13 and games are relatively quick paces right now so a lot of fights happen before level 13. Then you can think that it allows her to duel because she can deal %max hp true damage, but it is also untrue because this %max hp true damage is inferior to anything else in her kit that allows her to duel, and once again this is due to silver bolts needing 3 hits to be triggered. In an one vs one you will at best proc your W 2 times before the target dies, and i say at best because it is really rare. And if it happens it means that it was in early game or in mid game where the target has a very low HP and silver bolts is level 1 and thus the damage won't change anything. Isn't it weird that this spell is better in early/mid game than in late game?

Silver bolts used to be extremely important for vayne. It used to deal a base amount of damage combined with a % of max hp, this made vayne maxing W and rushed a lot of attack speed items while melting everything with a lot of proc of silver bolts. Eventually riot removed the flat amount of damage since then vayne mains maxed Q because if you maxed W first you would do no damage due to the little amount of HP

"but rubick, does this mean you want her flat amount of true damage back?" No, silver bolts is over. The game has evolved Vayne isn't about true damage anymore, she has evolved to CRIT build she does not need true damage . This spell has become irrelevant and can actually be replaced by something vayne needs: utility

And in this vayne thread comes an other discussion: a marksmen bringing only damage is NO BUENO. What are the marksmen played in lcs? Varus Jhin Ashe Sivir Kalista period (and MissFortune few times in the adc role because she is not that feast or famin) if they don't have utility they will become feast or famin and riot said multiple time that they hate feast or famin And don't start about "if every marksmen get utility they will be similar" this is a straight up lie because utility is different from champion to champion leading to niche, instead of "lol i bring only damage, same for the other good luck for choosing the right pick oh wait you will only choose the strongest"

SOOO what vayne needs? a spell that: -bring UNRELIABLE utility, a hypercarry should not have reliable utility or will end up a better pick than anyone else like Ashe who's about to get nerfed according to meddler. Unreliable= has a delay/hard to apply ect... but also telegraphed like Kalista sentinels -emphasis her identity------> duelist/single target damage/skirmisher -does not remove her weaknesses----------> lack of waveclear, lack of range

example of what it can be : Vayne's basic attacks and Condemn apply a Silver Bolts stack for 3 seconds (up to 3 times) Attacking a new enemy removes all stacks from the previous target. After The third stack, the silver will paralyze the target reducing its movement speed by 30/35/40/45/50% and attack speed by half of the amount for 0.5 second After the first effect, the other effects within 3 seconds on the same target will only last 0.25 second

finally and it's subjective, i suggest changing the name to "nickel bolts" since nickel is more toxic than silver

51 Comments

TyrekGoldenspear7 votes

Nickel bolts? Eww...

On the topic of Vayne, I can see the need for some utility on her end, as all she currently brings is damage and a single target potential stun.

You are correct in saying she doesn't need true damage that procs in three hits anymore, but maybe we can give her a better (insert key for Condemn here) spell.

My thought is that her identity is Runeterra's Batman. She can already maneuver about and murder people with ease, so as far as utility is concerned, she could get a rudimentary trackinf ability OR get an ability that lets her see stealthed targets within a certian range.

Here's my reasoning. She deals in stealth and ambush a lot, so it would make sense that she would be well versed in spotting the stealth of others.

Before you ask, only Vayne would be able to see/target them. In exchange her damage can be lowered.

Ahristocats3 votes

{quoted}

Nickel bolts? Eww...

i wasn't even serious :p was just something to joke around

{quoted} You are correct in saying she doesn't need true damage that procs in three hits anymore,

glad that you agree there

{quoted} My thought is that her identity is Runeterra's Batman. She can already maneuver about and murder people with ease, so as far as utility is concerned, she could get a rudimentary trackinf ability OR get an ability that lets her see stealthed targets within a certian range.

Here's my reasoning. She deals in stealth and ambush a lot, so it would make sense that she would be well versed in spotting the stealth of others.

it's also a good idea, here is the thing i was only showing an example but your idea can work, and it also fits with her thematic as she hunts the shadows

Escheton6 votes

As a tank player who permabans Vayne for a reason. I disagree wholeheartedly.

Anonagon5 votes

While I can see the need to give Vayne a little more utility than she currently has, I disagree with the assumption that Silver Bolts' %hp True Damage doesn't have a place anymore, and I also quite dislike your suggested replacement (though I know its just an example, so I won't bag on it).

In theory, Vayne's strengths are:

  • stickiness via tumble and passive
  • slipperiness via tumble, stealth, and condemn
  • tank killing via silver bolts

These strengths are thematically fitting for her character, which is a cross between a vampire hunter and Batman. Like Batman, she can chase her targets forever, but can easily slip back into the shadows should the authorities arrive or should the tide turn. Silver Bolts is representitive of the other half of her fantasy, the vampire hunter, and is her way to bypass a monster's supernatural defense and kill them.

In Vayne's current iteration, the tank-killing strength from Silver Bolts isn't all that relevant. You made this point and I agree with it. However, I don't think it should be removed or very significantly changed. Its not irrelevant because it doesn't belong, its irrelevant because of the state of the game and because of the warped power of her Q.

The state of the game doesn't favor Silver Bolts. We're in a squishy meta, meaning targets often die before Vayne can hit them three times, and even if they do live that long they don't have much max hp anyway. Vayne will often die before she can hit things three times due to the prevelance of massive burst damage. This explains the damage stats you pulled from Champion.gg - in a game state where Tanks were more common and more relevant lategame, Silver Bolts would make up a much greater portion of her damage output.

Silver Bolts isn't the part of her kit that doesn't belong. Tumble burst is.

So much of Vayne's current power is stored in her Q's bonus damage proc and its ability to crit (a power inflated by the flat AD steroid of her ultimate). Its why she rushes IE + Shiv and why she maxes Q first. Its why her strength profile has shifted from sustained tank-busting damage to two-hitting squishies with crit. And while, yes, technically this has always been a feature of her kit, the change that made her Q always crit when the attack does made that burst reliable.

Rather than remove Silver Bolts in favor of some ultility, how about removing her Q's ability to crit and maybe the flat AD steroid from her ultimate? This would also open up more room for utility, specifically on the ultimate, and would also correct her strength profile to what it was meant to be - a highly mobile tank-buster, not INSANE 2000 DAMAGE VAYNE CRIT ONE-SHOT MONTAGE POGCHAMP

Ahristocats2 votes

One can think like that but then 2 problems appear: -every marksmen can burst squishies, so why would you remove this aspect of vayne? -like i said she doesn't need her W to kill tanks, she has so much physical damage alone that she doesn't need her W except against %damage reduction like alistar. And that's why i don't see the point of current silver bolts

Anonagon6 votes

Thats more stuff about the current state of the game that doesn't favor Silver Bolts, stuff I forgot to include as I was expanding my thoughts. In a world where lategame crit ADC damage wasn't so absurdly high, this would be no problem.

Vayne wouldnt completely lose her ability to burst squishies, she just wouldn't do it so significantly better than most other ADCs (To be clear, I want her Q's bonus damage to not be able to crit, the attack itself could still crit). I don't think she should be defined by her Q's burst potential, especially given that other ADCs are actually meant to be defined by burst or single high-value auto attacks, like Quinn and Draven respectively, and are designed around it.

Ahristocats2 votes

i see

and btw, cait can also oneshot squishies

Anonagon4 votes

Cait is not a real champion and I refuse to believe she actually exists in the game

KNVB4 votes

Vayne has an individual identity as a late game 1 woman army, trying to remove that identity in the interest of making her another jhin/varus/ashe/sivir/kalista copycat is just bad taste as it would REMOVE diversity in the adc role not increase it.

Ahristocats2 votes

{quoted} trying to remove that identity in the interest of making her another jhin/varus/ashe/sivir/kalista

didn't know those champs could duel people

Big Lincoln3 votes

nickelbolt sounds like a bad band name xd

Ahristocats1 votes

wow big lincoln why u do this

Big Lincoln3 votes

i think the boards already knows how much i hate adcs, so i'm gonna be moving on to mages for a while

as for this idk how I feel about the atk speed slow. on one hand that's a really powerful tool i'm not sure she should have; on the other, it lasts so short a duration I don't know if it'd even matter

why did u edit ur post lol

Skias2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=B4uPpojl,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-03-06T14:33:54.645+0000)

nickelbolt sounds like a bad band name xd

I love Nickelbolt

KuroCaliber3 votes

50% slow on an already difficult to avoid ADC already sounds like a Boards Spam in the making.

fuffychan3 votes

TL;DR

and no she doesnt need nerfs

Ahristocats1 votes

i didn't understand that one it's not a nerf it's a rework of a spell that no longer feels good to use because its power is very invisible

The Scout Girl3 votes

oh yeh .... vayne needs a slow lol

Titanium702 votes

Yeah Silverbolts have a pretty flat gameplay and someone might consider them outdated, that's true.

BUT I always considered Vayne one of the most fitting Champions when looking at Kit and Identity and I still do. She's simple - She hits the spot.

She's a hunter of evil. A duelist. She can duel everything and everyone but is in trouble against multiple targets due to her single target Kit.*(although.. we all know Vaynes late... sigh - that's my only issue with her Kit).

Silverbolts prime this quite perfectly. Not only they're increasing the duel anything mentality, they're although 'forcing' Vayne to stick to single target instead of hitting what ever is close(Standard ADC-Playstyle). And let's not forget they're fitting the hunters theme Silver=Purity= DMG against all Evil. NOT NICKEL! x'D

However you're right - the importance of Silverbolts in Vaynes current Kit is... mediocre at best. However to much TrueDMG is a little problem due to counterplay aspects. Maybe we could shift her power a little into that direction. but I'd do nothing besides that. ^^

Linna Excel2 votes

Vayne's problem is that when Bork was nerfed awhile ago, people discovered her crit build. Ever since, people have been building crit on her. So instead of being the ADC who builds AS, she's now just your average hypercarry in terms of build path. The only major difference is that her W means she doesn't have to build a LW item so she can get away with a more defensive 6th slot.

Vayne was a good pro pick for awhile, for example Uzi got into a few finals because his teams were built around his vanye play. However pro play has its own problems in that games are ending faster, so you either want a lane bully or you want a utility ADC that benefits the whole team.

So Vayne isn't really the problem, the meta and riot screwing over her itemization is.

Also: giving a slow to vayne is nuts.

Ahristocats1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=B4uPpojl,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2017-03-06T16:20:54.462+0000)

Also: giving a slow to vayne is nuts.

i would like to thank you for replying to the thread without minding the example and then talked about it

so if the meta and riot are screwing over her itemization, should we change her itemization or replace her W?

Linna Excel1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=B4uPpojl,comment-id=000d0000,timestamp=2017-03-06T16:23:36.327+0000)

so if the meta and riot are screwing over her itemization, should we change her itemization or replace her W?

Reverting her itemization a little closer to what it was would be my preference. I think if riot added another AD/AS item for her, shyvana, and maybe 2-3 other champs that'd be great.

She can't easily go the bloodrazor route because it makes the midgame when you are buying the jungle component pretty painful, and you can't really afford that weak of a midgame in the current meta. You also have to give up either flash (no) or heal (ugh) to do so.

TF would work nice on her in theory, but now that she's building crit it is hard to justify a slot for it.

TheLastShadow452 votes

I feel this post so much.

As someone who used to play nothing but Vayne in Season4 I remember getting cured out because of that true damage and it being deemed "unfair" by my opponents cause it ignored their tank stats.

But I did try to play her not to long ago and it really did feel like my W was doing nothing for me. I then just built her the normal crit adc( i did a build path from gosu) and it felt like I was actually useful after that.

Raiku Kawisa2 votes

"But let's try for a few minutes to use reasoning."

Alright sounds good.

"We have so much hypercarries that can kill tanks as fast as she can, it doesn't matter how with true damage, with what steroid ect... they will still kill tanks. Vayne is not a special snowflake in this matter."

Wait? All adcs chunk 12% of a tank's HP every 3 attacks without being reduced by armor?! Damn, how have tanks every survived? Let me know if you want to run a numbers game on Vayne's kit. There will never be an adc who kills tanks better than Vayne.

"So what was the original point? silver bolts does nothing to improve this identity."

Umm, Vayne is a Night Hunter. In most monster lore, they are weak to silver. So her using Silver Bolts is very important to her lore and them having true dmg also makes sense to make she she is the most effective hunter of her prey. Even though %HP True Dmg is god awful

"champion.gg says that vayne does 89% of her damage as physical damage, the 11% remaining is true damage"

Odd, When I looked Champion.gg says the break down is 74% Physical, 8% MAGIC, and 18% True. Considering that Vayne has no magic dmg in her kit, that dmg would be coming from probably stattik shiv. Also have to take into account early game trading you are rarely going to get the three shots you need to proc Silver Bolts so there will be more Physical damage from that time. Buying Blade of the Ruined King (Which is very common on Tankbuster Vayne) also deals Physical. Attacking squishy targets (Most teams have 2 or 3) means that %Hp True is not going to be as impactful. Yet still True dmg makes up almost a fifth of her damage.

"The game has evolved Vayne isn't about true damage anymore, she has evolved to CRIT build she does not need true damage ."

Vayne went crit build because her Q crit scaling with the bonus AD was completely broken until Rito finally nerfed that shit.

"And in this vayne thread comes an other discussion: a marksmen bringing only damage is NO BUENO. What are the marksmen played in lcs?"

That is because the meta has shifted to early/mid game power with utility. Last season i recall Varus was almost exclusively a mid lane pick. now he is a comtested ADC. Meanwhile I remember seeing a lot of Lucian last season but he doesn't have the safety of range. It is perfectly alright if an adc is not strong in a season. When the meta shifts in their favor again, they will have a chance.

"After The third stack, the silver will paralyze the target reducing its movement speed by 30/35/40/45/50% and attack speed by half of the amount for 0.5 second After the first effect, the other effects within 3 seconds on the same target will only last 0.25 second"

Damn, And I thought it was hard enough to escape a fed Vayne, now I just have no chance at all. Not to mention getting permaslowed AND AS slowed means that Most fighters will not even have a chance against Vayne when they already have trouble. She already has massive utility in her condemn. A solid knockback alone, a knockback and a stun if you hit them into a wall. Combine that with her passive and her Tumble means she already has no problems dealing with melee AS-based champs that are not assassins.

Giving her an AS slow means that any attempt to trade with her bot lane is a waste of effort.

So i disagree. I hate fighting Vayne more than most people and wish that she would burn in fire but this does not improve her thematic, makes fighting against her unbareable, and removes her ability to melt tanks (Even though you disagree that is a valid niche for Vayne).

"finally and it's subjective, i suggest changing the name to "nickel bolts" since nickel is more toxic than silver"

Again, you clearly do not understand Vayne's thematic. How many monster lores have you heard where they can only be killed with pure silver? Werewolves are one for sure and I'm pretty sure there are some vampire lores that also state they are weak to silver

Ahristocats1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Raiku Kawisa,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=B4uPpojl,comment-id=000f,timestamp=2017-03-06T20:47:36.844+0000)

Alright sounds good.

Wait? All adcs chunk 12% of a tank's HP every 3 attacks without being reduced by armor?! Damn, how have tanks every survived? Let me know if you want to run a numbers game on Vayne's kit. There will never be an adc who kills tanks better than Vayne.

it's not going to do anything compared to the physical damage of vayne via crit and tumble and final hour Other hyper carries are not going to chunk 12% of a tank hp every 3 attacks, but the result will be the same: a tank dying quickly

[{quoted}](name=Raiku Kawisa,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=B4uPpojl,comment-id=000f,timestamp=2017-03-06T20:47:36.844+0000) Umm, Vayne is a Night Hunter. In most monster lore, they are weak to silver. So her using Silver Bolts is very important to her lore and them having true dmg also makes sense to make she she is the most effective hunter of her prey. Even though %HP True Dmg is god awful

if you play vayne you will realise that this has disappeared almost completly

[{quoted}](name=Raiku Kawisa,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=B4uPpojl,comment-id=000f,timestamp=2017-03-06T20:47:36.844+0000) Odd, When I looked Champion.gg says the break down is 74% Physical, 8% MAGIC, and 18% True. Considering that Vayne has no magic dmg in her kit, that dmg would be coming from probably stattik shiv. Also have to take into account early game trading you are rarely going to get the three shots you need to proc Silver Bolts so there will be more Physical damage from that time

Even in late game, you need three shots to proc it so it's still going to be more physical damage

[{quoted}](name=Raiku Kawisa,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=B4uPpojl,comment-id=000f,timestamp=2017-03-06T20:47:36.844+0000) . Buying Blade of the Ruined King (Which is very common on Tankbuster Vayne)

We're not playing the same game then

[{quoted}](name=Raiku Kawisa,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=B4uPpojl,comment-id=000f,timestamp=2017-03-06T20:47:36.844+0000) Vayne went crit build because her Q crit scaling with the bonus AD was completely broken until Rito finally nerfed that shit.

it can still crit, she can still 2 shots a squishy watch the video above if you think the opposite crit is by far better, and remove the need of silver bolts

[{quoted}](name=Raiku Kawisa,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=B4uPpojl,comment-id=000f,timestamp=2017-03-06T20:47:36.844+0000) That is because the meta has shifted to early/mid game power with utility. Last season i recall Varus was almost exclusively a mid lane pick. now he is a comtested ADC. Meanwhile I remember seeing a lot of Lucian last season but he doesn't have the safety of range. It is perfectly alright if an adc is not strong in a season. When the meta shifts in their favor again, they will have a chance.

Vayne is already strong, she doesn't need a metashift she just needs a good frontline. Those changes aim to change something that isn't needed for vayne's identity in favor of utility

[{quoted}](name=Raiku Kawisa,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=B4uPpojl,comment-id=000f,timestamp=2017-03-06T20:47:36.844+0000)

She already has massive utility in her condemn. A solid knockback alone, a knockback and a stun if you hit them into a wall.

single target low range on high cooldown, what a great utility

[{quoted}](name=Raiku Kawisa,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=B4uPpojl,comment-id=000f,timestamp=2017-03-06T20:47:36.844+0000) Giving her an AS slow means that any attempt to trade with her bot lane is a waste of effort.

15% attack speed slow for 0.5 sec, needs 3 attacks, it was only an example, but it shows how people are going to write anything to whine for nothing

[{quoted}](name=Raiku Kawisa,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=B4uPpojl,comment-id=000f,timestamp=2017-03-06T20:47:36.844+0000)

So i disagree. I hate fighting Vayne more than most people and wish that she would burn in fire but this does not improve her thematic

i don't care about her thematic, i care about her identity

[{quoted}](name=Raiku Kawisa,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=B4uPpojl,comment-id=000f,timestamp=2017-03-06T20:47:36.844+0000)

Again, you clearly do not understand Vayne's thematic

it was only a joke to show my medicine knowledge on nickel

Ralanr1 votes

Why not just have the slow reduced by half for each consecutive time she procs it on the same target?

So first is 0.5, second is 0.25, third is half of that rounded down, etc.

Ahristocats1 votes

it was just an idea, if it's overbearing your idea is also good

however you have to make it going back to 0.5 sec after 3 sec, because if it doesn't i can't see the spell being interesting

Ralanr1 votes

Well obviously there would be a reset of the ability if she didn't proc it for x seconds.

Though I feel this wouldn't solve Vayne's problem of stat checking people. This would just make it harder to evade her or even chase her when kiting. Sure it sounds like the perfect kiting kit (and it is, hence the problem where a good Vayne would have no real weakness).

Maybe I'm overthinking it. I guess I don't know if she should keep such a powerful 1v1 focused kit (which I feel is basically a stat checking kit) without some counterplay beyond jumping on her. At least Fiora has to work with vitals.

Ahristocats1 votes

{quoted}

Well obviously there would be a reset of the ability if she didn't proc it for x seconds.

no i meant the ability should reset even if she continues to proc it

{quoted} Though I feel this wouldn't solve Vayne's problem of stat checking people.

it won't, stat check is a thing in league and we can't do anything about that. A lot of stat-check champions remained the same for so many years and i don't think riot will change them since we can already deal with them but not via counter-play

if you want to make vayne not stat check, you have to make her E a skillshot and adjust her kit around that

{quoted}

This would just make it harder to evade her or even chase her when kiting. Sure it sounds like the perfect kiting kit (and it is, hence the problem where a good Vayne would have no real weakness).

well that's what vayne is good at, it would be like not allowing twitch to annilate a team with his ult

IA9hRfpP5q1 votes

I've always said it...

She tumbles and becomes invisible releasing bats...

BUT ITS A DARK MAGICS HUNTER?

WTF how the fuck does she even stealth??? LUL

Mira Arya Enthe1 votes

Why exactly give the game's strongest duelist an AS slow? Are we trying to make her even more infuriating to fight? Especially as somebody like Jax. Goes from "Vayne has an advantage" to "Jax cannot be picked with Vayne in the game". Also a slow combined with her passive... hell why not make Blinding dart a slow while we are at it. Or Shyvana's E. Nobody likes ever escaping anyway.

Ahristocats1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=B4uPpojl,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2017-03-06T16:05:34.817+0000)

Why exactly give the game's strongest duelist an AS slow?

utility+dueling power, which led me to think about that spell

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=B4uPpojl,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2017-03-06T16:05:34.817+0000) Are we trying to make her even more infuriating to fight? Especially as somebody like Jax. Goes from "Vayne has an advantage" to "Jax cannot be picked with Vayne in the game".

because a jax game is all about killing vayne

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=B4uPpojl,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2017-03-06T16:05:34.817+0000) Also a slow combined with her passive... hell why not make Blinding dart a slow while we are at it. Or Shyvana's E. Nobody likes ever escaping anyway.

i don't see the point of talking about that

Ralanr3 votes

You don't see the point in talking about making one of the better chasers nearly impossible to escape from?

Ahristocats1 votes

No, i meant talking about blinding dart slowing or shyvana E or w/e, i don't feel like talking about exagerations

Mira Arya Enthe1 votes

Jax was a single example. The point was giving the best duelist in the game... MORE dueling power. And giving the best chaser and one of the best kiters in the game, MORE chasing and kiting. That would be like removing the execute on Riven's ult, saying it does nothing in synergy with her kit, then insisting instead her ult second cast should be a leap that stuns because it makes sense with the rest of her kit.

Ahristocats2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=B4uPpojl,comment-id=000b00000001,timestamp=2017-03-06T16:11:34.051+0000)

then insisting instead her ult second cast should be a leap that stuns because it makes sense with the rest of her kit.

Does your champion need more utility? i don't think so, therefore? No your ability to compare a situation to an other situation that is totally different is on point like always

does vayne already have too much dueling power? Yes indeed and 0.5 sec as/ms slow may be a problem, but it was a fucking example that i thought about after thinking about vayne's kit and here you come making a whole scene about that while ignoring the entire point of this thread which was talking about silver bolts

when i said your posts were nothing related to positive i wasn't kidding

Mira Arya Enthe1 votes

You provided an example of how it might be changed. I addressed that example just like when I made an idea for Ashe, and people addressed it. You still aren't getting how this public forums thing works. You post an idea, people either criticize, agree or modify it to fit their needs. No one result is assured. Not everyone agrees with you.

As for the overall point. Vayne is great in tank metas specifically because of her W. Her kit does mostly physical damage right now because tanks are rare, tank items are shit and everything else dies with one or zero procs of her W. So I also disagree there as she becomes an obvious must pick anytime tanks are strong.

I also disagree she needs more dueling power at all. Or even utility. Like Draven she is an aggressive damage carry, with one good but not overbearing self peel. Both have mobility spells. Both have huge chunking damage. She has more dueling power and tank busting. He has more squishy chunking and a long range ult.

But if I did give Vayne anything it wouldn't be more dueling or chasing power. I would improve on her self peel so she can survive the burst and heavy CC in the game these days.

Ahristocats1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=B4uPpojl,comment-id=000b0000000100000000,timestamp=2017-03-06T16:24:48.712+0000)

You provided an example of how it might be changed. I addressed that example just like when I made an idea for Ashe, and people addressed it. You still aren't getting how this public forums thing works. You post an idea, people either criticize, agree or modify it to fit their needs. No one result is assured. Not everyone agrees with you.

Nice, never again will i do it then because it makes people ignoring everything else

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=B4uPpojl,comment-id=000b0000000100000000,timestamp=2017-03-06T16:24:48.712+0000) As for the overall point. Vayne is great in tank metas specifically because of her W. Her kit does mostly physical damage right now because tanks are rare, tank items are shit and everything else dies with one or zero procs of her W. So I also disagree there as she becomes an obvious must pick anytime tanks are strong.

i can't see this happening, even if tanks become strong they will die because of her insane crit damage, and not because of her W

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=B4uPpojl,comment-id=000b0000000100000000,timestamp=2017-03-06T16:24:48.712+0000)

Or even utility.

Let the healthy feast or famin gameplay happen in league

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=B4uPpojl,comment-id=000b0000000100000000,timestamp=2017-03-06T16:24:48.712+0000) Like Draven she is an aggressive damage carry,

who's also a bad design

TyrekGoldenspear2 votes

who's also a bad design

Imma stop you right there. Draven's design is perfectly Draaaaven.

Ahristocats1 votes

i like how he isn't stat-check because his Q requieres mechanics

but he's too feast or famin, relies on snowballing with his passive, and doesn't bring utility while being behind

TyrekGoldenspear3 votes

The only utility he needs to provide is being Draaaaaven.

Draven Draven Draven Draven

Ahristocats2 votes

4

perfection

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

Draven is Jhin confirmed.

Mira Arya Enthe1 votes

Finished with this conversation after the Draven part. His gameplay is amazing. I say that as somebody who always loses to him. He is fucking awesome.

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

We're talking about replacing her silver bolts with something else.

As it stands she doesn't really need them to murder something, and she can get a better spell in exchange for some of her damage being lowered.

My idea was to replace her silver bolts with a rudimentary tracking OR stealth vision ability, so within a certain range only she can see stealthed units.

In this way her identity as Runeterra's Batman is preserved while at the same time giving her utility so she has reason to be picked besides damage and #outplays.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

Her E is already extremely reliable utility.

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