Why are you reducing the tenacity in the defensive tree?

HateDaddy·Jun 13, 2015·53 votes·2,582 views

Tenacity is already an underwhelming stat as it is

If anything, tenacity needs to be buffed

28 Comments

LongHair FoxJun 13, 201520 votes

Most likely because it is now a low tier thing and not the final skill. The reason for this change in turn is because those that really wanted tenacity is bruiser who would normally only get 9 points in defense whereas tanks who went all out in that tree does not really need the extra tenacity unless there were powerfull aoe cc on the enemy team.

DreadlocksJun 13, 20152 votes

I agree, I can see it replacing the 21-9 we do now with juggernaut being our 9th point. Not to mention the swiftness thats up in tier 1 now xD

junglerboy16Jun 13, 20152 votes

yeah, now pure tanks who really want to invest deep in the tree can get some really good tank stats from legendary guardian and the new enchanted armor.

skyfall619Jun 13, 201512 votes

they didnt nerf the mastery. it was a 21 point mastery now its a 9 point mastery looks like a buff to me. now everyone can get it and not just tanks. if anything this is to shake up the tank meta since now that everyone will have that 10%, the cc from tanks will be shorter ultimately making the tank meta less effective then before.

Only Play DariusJun 13, 20153 votes

To further enforce the tank meta.

Tanks are the ones with the most CC, while also being the ones least vulnerable to CC. Tenacity nerfs benefit tanks and only tanks.

Sejuani Gragas I wouldn't have a problem with these guys if not for their wallhops. "Hurr durr I have 6000HP so it took you 10 minutes to bring me to half health, let me just wallhop away because it's not my fault I got caught out!"

Critmaster GarenJun 13, 201513 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jelly Mac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=B1so81kJ,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-06-13T15:24:41.714+0000)

To further enforce the tank meta.

Tanks are the ones with the most CC, while also being the ones least vulnerable to CC. Tenacity nerfs benefit tanks and only tanks.

I wouldn't have a problem with these guys if not for their wallhops. "Hurr durr I have 6000HP so it took you 10 minutes to bring me to half health, let me just wallhop away because it's not my fault I got caught out!"

not if its that far into the defensive tree?

unless youre playing ad carries and mages with 9/21 masteries, your whole argument only applies to items and not this change. tanks and some bruisers are usually the only ones who go far down enough the tree to take the mastery in the first place.

putting it somewhere within the 9 point range means virtually anyone can pick it up, (going 21 points in one of the other trees), while its less for tanks.

LongHair FoxJun 13, 20154 votes

Since it is now at the 9 point mark it will do the opposite. Finally non tanks can get tenacity without items meaning more people will have tenacity which is a good stat against tanks.

aaronconlinJun 14, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jelly Mac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=B1so81kJ,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-06-13T15:24:41.714+0000)

To further enforce the tank meta.

Tanks are the ones with the most CC, while also being the ones least vulnerable to CC. Tenacity nerfs benefit tanks and only tanks.

I wouldn't have a problem with these guys if not for their wallhops. "Hurr durr I have 6000HP so it took you 10 minutes to bring me to half health, let me just wallhop away because it's not my fault I got caught out!"

Tanks were the only ones getting the Tenacious Mastery, not it's available to bruisers

Meeks011Jun 14, 20151 votes

10 minutes to bring me to half health

More like 10 seconds if you're using anyone with a Ruin King or Crit.

SoMNiaJun 13, 20152 votes

Underwhelming? Crowd control wins games. So does escaping it. Irelia just lost 5% tenacity, so she can only get up to 85% now. She's not completely immune, but close enough. I'm not sure it even hurts her. More importantly, a lot of other champions just potentially gained access to it, meaning they can get 45% with Mercs or Zephyr. That's huge, and actually pretty important in responding to the "tank meta".

SouL1essJun 13, 20151 votes

lost 5% tenacity, so she can only get up to 85% now

Tenacity does not add when stacking...it's the same calculation as percentage penetration.

SoMNiaJun 14, 20151 votes

Yes, that's been pointed out. It stacks multiplicatively. My point stands, though. Reducing the duration on stuns and such matters a lot.

HateDaddyJun 13, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Underwhelming? Crowd control wins games. So does escaping it. just lost 5% tenacity, so she can only get up to 85% now. She's not completely immune, but close enough. I'm not sure it even hurts her. More importantly, a lot of other champions just potentially gained access to it, meaning they can get 45% with Mercs or Zephyr. That's huge, and actually pretty important in responding to the "tank meta".

Most Irelias went 21/9, so they never got any tenacity from the defensive tree.

I don't like losing 5% overall even if it's not as deep in the tree. To be honest, getting tenacity should require you to go deep into the defensive tree. Losing 5% so everyone can have it doesn't mean that it isn't still an underwhelming stat.

Sir FuzziJun 13, 20151 votes

mast ten + merc treads promises for some interesting fighters ahead.

I'm not sure bruisers need the tenacity without devoting to defense at least like a 15/15 or something, it seems a bit weird-- the whole 'tanks have defined tenacity by taking the tree' looked fair to me

needless to say though, I don't adhere to, care about or play anything regarding the meta-- if tanks were a problem before this doesn't seem the solution though, it's taking the tank problem and giving it to others.

Riven with more tenacity does not make me happy, Zed with more tenacity, etc. etc...

TwitchInMyPantsJun 14, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Underwhelming? Crowd control wins games. So does escaping it. just lost 5% tenacity, so she can only get up to 85% now. She's not completely immune, but close enough. I'm not sure it even hurts her. More importantly, a lot of other champions just potentially gained access to it, meaning they can get 45% with Mercs or Zephyr. That's huge, and actually pretty important in responding to the "tank meta".

Tenacity stacks multiplicitively. If Irelia's passive is at its peak (3 champs nearby), she has 40% + 35% of that (14%) then an extra 10% of the now 54% (5%) so that's 59% tenacity at maximum. Still that's more than half of cc reduced which is significant, but most likely its going to be at 43% (1 champ) or 48% (2 champs). Basically at all points its about half of cc reduced after merc treads and pre merc treads its significantly less. For every other champion in the game at most you get 39% tenacity at most if you get mercs and the mastery.

SoMNiaJun 14, 20154 votes

Noted. But shouldn't each subsequent reduction be multiplied by the result, not by the initial reduction? 100 x 0.6 x 0.65 x 0.9 = 35.1, which is 64.9% tenacity — call it 65% reduction at max. With 1 or 2, you'd get 47.35% or 59.05%. Other champions should get 41.5% reduction with Mercs and mastery. It should add 6.5% reduction on top of Mercury's Treads for most champions, which lets you recover from a 2-second stun 0.13 seconds sooner (total 0.83, or 0.2 sooner without Mercs), and yes, that CAN save you.

nananananacatJun 14, 20152 votes

Tank meta OP? Better indirectly nerf Irelia.

Skia AsteriJun 14, 20152 votes

More questionable is Oppression losing 1% of it damage reduction despite moving higher up the tree.

Widder88Jun 13, 20151 votes

But you can get it with just 9 points in defensive tree now. That is maybe better than 3% increased health in some cases. A choice.

AkesgerothJun 13, 20151 votes

Tenacity should be removed or reworked. Considering it doesn't affect displacement effects which are the most common CC nowadays, Tenacity is becoming less and less useful. Hell, it would be useful for melee against slows if it reduced the slow amount, but it doesn't and most slows are refreshed faster than tenacity can keep up with. I personally get merc treads for the MR, the Tenacity is just an afterthought now.

Sinister AnubisJun 14, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Tenacity is already an underwhelming stat as it is

If anything, tenacity needs to be buffed

1 word 1 champion Iralia. Nuff said

BârdJun 14, 20151 votes

They probably did it because they moved it to a lower tier. It gives less tenacity, sure, but you need to invest fewer points into the tree in order to get it.

thinking manJun 14, 20151 votes

tenacity is pointless on tanks and the only people who want it are bruisers so making it earlier means that the people who actually care to dive will be able to grab it while going 21 in offense

lDontLiftIcarryJun 14, 20151 votes

Because fuck anyone for challenging mustard reece adsee

AnidanJun 14, 20151 votes

This helps everyone except maybe tanks who actually could've grabbed the mastery, not just ADCs. In fact, the main people this helps are bruisers. If an ADC gets stunned then that small tenacity very likely isn't saving their life.