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I Absolutely Despise "Feast or Famine" Champs

Woodakoodashooda··4 votes·1,686 views

I really do hate these champions that either make it big for their team or end up weighing all of their allies down and likely costing them a match.

Even in the event that they do make it big early, they still have to contend with the very real threat of other allies making their lead utterly moot by dying multiple times to the enemy.

I hate them because I can never truly rely on them on my teams. They carry with them so many risks that I absolutely cringe when I have one on my side.

I just want this whole ideal that Riot has that champions should get fat or end up starved off the table.

Maybe then actual balance can commence and comebacks would happen more often and then maybe, maybe, the contributions of one player can actually start making a bigger difference again.

You expect players to carry feeders and trolls and win 4v5 or 4v6 match ups then at least throw a bone our way and eliminate this detrimental mechanic from the game.

18 Comments

Eedat2 votes

Bruh you main one

Woodakoodashooda2 votes

Trust me when I say that despite Wu needing item optimization to be at his best or even decent, even when behind, he still has a reliable ultimate capable of locking down an entire enemy team so that allies can tear them apart.

Additionally, as an AD champion, Wu can effectively split push if he cannot effectively engage enemies.

Eedat2 votes

Wu is complete trash when behind. You get instantly melted when you try to ult into a fight. Legit W>E>R into the instant flash out because you die in under 2 seconds flat. His split push is horrendous when behind because his A, his waveclear is horrible and B, he cant 1v1 pretty much anything that he cant burst out which he cant do when behind. The only option to fix his horrendously bad waveclear is go item 3074 which is terrible to build a full AD item when you're already so far behind. Also dont forget that he has absolutely no sustain, has massive mana issues, and practically doesnt have a passive in lane. When you fall behind there is no safety net. You just get your teeth kicked in over and over and you cant do jack about it.

Jungle Wu is outstandingly bad. His early clear is absolutely atrocious. Legit one of the absolute worst early clears out of any jungler. The only reason he skates by is that nobody invades in low ELO (EDIT: Just to clarify by "low ELO" I mean low Plat and down which I am a part of) for some reason because Wu is a free kill at practically all times early.

Wu is a posterchild for feast or famine at this point. He either gets fed and one-shot nukes people or falls behind and is trash tier. Tank Wu is garbage especially after the tank item nerfs last season. You are at the mercy of getting carried. He's not an effective tank and has trash base damages so his damage is complete shit unless he builds more AD.

Woodakoodashooda1 votes

I often forget Hydra is even an option at this point. It just isn't a cost effective item anymore. I mean, really. 3500 gold for what exactly?

As for garbage wave clear, I'll have to politely disagree. I generally E onto caster minions to wipe them out first then I proceed to last hit the rest of the wave after.

And you mentioned jungle. Again, I disgree with you there as well. Players generally invade 3 or 4 times out of 10 in my experience. And depending on where my bot camp is will determine which jungle item I buy first.

If I am going red first then I'll need to compensate for mana with item 1039 after which I take a dose or two of my item 2031 and go into the enemy jungle bot side where I either steal the enemy blue for them getting their leash top side or I find them at wolves or gromp where I either...

A. Manage to kill them early.

or

B. Force them into retreat.

Of course, I've the presence of mind NOT to stay for any camps after my brief encounter with the enemy jungle and, instead, melt back into my own.

With red, Wu can cheese any vulnerable target in the early game including tanks.

As for blue start, that's where I decide to go for an early farm strategy in order to maintain a strong bot side leash. This is when I start item 1041 since I've the mana regen I need for my first clear.

Crabs on both sides of the map are good for his early sustain, by the way. Enemies often forget those even exist with the exception of Kindred mains who are few and far in between and they hunt them simply for stacks and for no other reason.

To keep my jungle clear without having to back frequently I upgrade my potion to item 2032 because, as you mentioned, he has no built in sustain. And it's proven enough to maintain a competitive CS.

I will agree with you on one point, however. He is not an effective tank. A tank Wu deals no damage and simply dies slower than he normally would in team fights that go South and they often will if you are unfortunate enough to have a Wu on your team build tank.

Finally, the engage you mentioned is not at all how a good Wu would engage an enemy. E, Auto, Q, R is the legitimate combo and then you save W for an escape as needed rather than burn it on the engage. The only time Wu should ever decoy for an engage is if he catches an enemy alone and wishes to burst them down in an instant without giving them a chance to react.

Eedat1 votes

As for garbage wave clear, I'll have to politely disagree. I generally E onto caster minions to wipe them out first then I proceed to last hit the rest of the wave after.

His waveclear is absolutely god awful. E does NOT one-shot casters so you have to E then stand there and auto them all once then sit there and auto the rest of the wave to death. Thats soooooooooooooooooooo slow. You have to spam your mana to clear waves quickly and even then its SUPER slow compared to the vast majority of the top lane roster. The only fix is a tiamat. His waveclear is legit slower than Shen's. His AoE is dogshit. He has absolutely zero range outside a tiny bit for a single creep on Q. You fall behind you are fucked because you have zero tools for farming at a safe range or for sustaining yourself.

Jungle Wu is 100% complete trash. I've mained jungle Wu for over 4 years and I wont touch it after the pre-season changes. Its absolutely horrendous. Top lane Wu is the only Wu.

If I am going red first then I'll need to compensate for mana with after which I take a dose or two of my and go into the enemy jungle bot side where I either steal the enemy blue for them getting their leash top side or I find them at wolves or gromp where I either...

This doesnt even make sense. The enemy jungler is going to start at their bottom buff 9 times out of ten so there will be no buff there for you to steal. They're not even going to be there unless they're taking some god awful pathing. If you started red they would clear their own buff and clear wolves before you ever got there and been on their top side already. Starting item on Wu jungle doesnt really make a difference considering he gets so low from just a basic buff-camp-buff start that you cant even gank afterwards.

Wu is in a bad spot. He's so incredibly feast or famine that it hurts.Complete trash when behind and unfair when ahead

Woodakoodashooda1 votes

I don't know what experiences you've had, but I am painfully aware of his early mana issues. In top lane, he has to sit in lane and politely wait for the allied jungle to provide a gank or just smack a low health minion every now and again.

I hate the early farm game in any lane, honestly, it is so god awfully boring that I cannot imagine myself having fun doing anything other than junge (with chat muted, of course).

And what part about red start made no sense to you? Do you stop to take Raptors or Krugs before walking over to their wolves?

The enemy jungle will have time enough to take blue and gromp before heading on over to wolves at best by the time you walk there and you'll both be at 2. Difference is your red gives you an advantage over them in a fight and you can easily kill them or chase them out and force them to b while you return to farming. In either scenario, you land ahead of the enemy jungle.

And can't gank after taking a camp? That, to me, does not make any sense. If you grab red, invade the enemy jungle and then take scuttle, you're healthy enough for a gank.

If you start blue with machete, you can clear gromp and wolves and scuttle and, if needed, gank an overextended enemy because you'll have smited wolves for health and killed scuttle for additional health.

If nothing can be ganked, you can run over and grab your red, if it's not been stolen, take the other scuttle, and then take krugs and MAYBE raptors before your first back.

I'm able to stay at or above enemy jungle in CS throughout most or the entire game because I am familiar with the weaknesses of my champion and I work around them rather than give up entirely on my champion.

Eedat1 votes

And what part about red start made no sense to you?

The part where Red spawns on opposite sides of the map depending which team you are lol. You're trying to do a level 2 invade which is extremely bad considering you will get collapsed on and die if you dont instantly kill their jungler

The enemy jungle will have time enough to take blue and gromp before heading on over to wolves at best by the time you walk there and you'll both be at 2.

I'm not sure if this is an ELO thing, but nobody does this when I play. Thats not a good path. You take a buff, wolves, and then your other buff and look for a gank

unFOURJhinet1 votes

I love how you're complaining about feast or famine champions but then you're defending your choice. That's like me saying "oooh Qiyana is not feast or famine. She has a great late game even if she got camped out of her mind." I play a lot of assassins. Don't get me started so many of them are feast or famine. Some just have amazing early games so they can get fed like talon. And Zed is an abomination.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

The only option to fix his horrendously bad waveclear is go item 3074

just take tiamat.

Wu is a free kill at practically all times early.

no, only for the first clear

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

he still has a reliable ultimate capable of locking down an entire enemy team so that allies can tear them apart.

malphite low cost

Additionally, as an AD champion, Wu can effectively split push if he cannot effectively engage enemies.

lmao, to splittpush, u need to be able to the 1v1 and to be able to fastpush.

PhearBunny1 votes

I sorta agree with you, but I feel like they should know when they become a weight on the team, and act accordingly. You don't have to be useful in teamfights if you can continuously pressure a lane and take towers/inhibs while your team fights.

Brain Errör 4041 votes

That'd be awesome if it wasn't so easy to shut down split pushing now with all the tools riot put in the game to deal with it...

Woodakoodashooda1 votes

You're asking for common sense from people who expect wins to be delivered to them in 30 minutes or less by someone else.

People who think themselves great at what it is they do and then fail at it and either say "I'm having a bad game" like that makes your upteenth loss okay or they just blame their failings on some other ally for some ridiculous reason.

People play ranked like alcoholics...irresponsibly. Sometimes they are literally drunk while playing it.

No, you cannot expect people to know jack about jack. They'll do their own thing and do it until the end of the match regardless of how horrible their decisions are and someone else is expected to clean up after them constantly.

I could type a multiple page essay that lists a number of ways people deliberately mess games up for other people simply because they just have to have things their way, but I'm sure you've experienced your share and I feel like it'd be a colossal waste of time for all of us.

NubianFarmer1 votes

Feast or famine happens all the time in Dota 2. Perhaps loss of gold is an incredibly necessary mechanic to stave off this problem you're talking about. Riot has tried stupidly hard to give gold to less sustainable heroes and supports and yet here we are with heroes that are make or break. Maybe supports shouldn't scale into late game? Maybe the jungle shouldn't be a necessity? At this point with Riot being the Federal Reserve equivalent of meta defining meddlers -- no balance changes beside power creep inhibition will truly be reasonable imo.

Ultimately the real reason is the lack of powerful mechanics that allow for different strategies in response to a 5 man deathball. There are deathablls in dota 2, yes, but its a deathball you've created in some respect. In league, you are guaranteed so much free gold and that same gold is much more useful on one hero than another. If you're a feast or famine hero and that deathball comes barreling in you're pretty much out of options but to respond with massive poke and a quick cleanup or face a lost inhibitor followed by a lost Baron. But pokes are not on every hero and is invariably the best way to secure a winning teamfight.

With low death-timers and "respawning barracks" a reasonable comeback through good plays is not advancing the game-state in your favor necessarily. I can go on but I would urge you to look into what other mobas do correctly and incorrectly to properly reflect on this issue. It's more insight and research than Riot has ever offered.

Also I'm not saying Dota 2 has it right but there are way more tools to work with you cannot deny.

xelaker1 votes

spoiler alert- this isn't dota 2. discuss league in it's own right, not what other games do.

CloudedLogic1 votes

{quoted}

spoiler alert- this isn't dota 2. discuss league in it's own right, not what other games do.

He is making a comparison, just because it's not league doesn't mean it is not applicable to the subject at hand.

Personally I think the subject of feast and famine champs needs to be looked at multiple levels of play.

Do they show up in high level/tournament play? If not, why not?

I hear people complain about Riot balancing a champion for top tier play making them nightmares for low level play, but doesn't that mean the inverse can be true? Someone can be strong in high level play to the point that they have to be left in a state where low level can't use them all that well.

NubianFarmer1 votes

Xelaker, why would you dismiss games that are in direct competition with league? Why does league have to be a microcosm? It certainly isn't helping that it is.

General Esdeath 1 votes

That's how I feel about some champs, more recently Zoe.

She either gets really big and one shots you or she falls behind and can't do anything unless she sleeps a squishy and farms up.

Biggest example of this is Pantheon. Win early or lose.

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