Edge of Night isn't Doing What Riot Promised

Woodakoodashooda·Feb 16, 2017·124 votes·6,278 views

Edge of Night was supposed to be an item for assassins that allowed them to go in on opportune moments without fear of being instantly CC locked. It was supposed to require planning, forethought, and critical decision making. With the promise that it would not nor could it be easily abused.

But it does NOT and it CAN, in fact, be abused and is often abused.

Its active has both a short cooldown AND a long duration, allowing for plenty of time to abuse it or merely intimidate enemies into cowering away, knowing that the first person to try engaging is dead.

It turns any AD champion who builds it into a bully, not an assassin. On top of which it combines insane AD stats with lethality WITH a decent amount of magic resistance.

If Edge of Night is to function as intended, three things need to happen.

Reduce the duration that the shield can remain active.
Increase the cooldown of the active.
Increase the out of combat channel on its active from 3 to 4 or 5 seconds.

135 Comments

SOLOQSUPERHEROFeb 16, 201737 votes

Honestly I think the issue is there needs to be a trade off with it.

They did a pretty decent job with the mage items when rylais got nerfed. I'm not pretty consistently thinking hard on what I'm building because I may want different things. and I can't do all of it or i don't do enough damage.

Remove the lethality on it, people will still buy it because the active is good but it doesn't give you as much damage.

ErockandrollFeb 16, 20179 votes

{quoted}

Honestly I think the issue is there needs to be a trade off with it.

They did a pretty decent job with the mage items when rylais got nerfed. I'm not pretty consistently thinking hard on what I'm building because I may want different things. and I can't do all of it or i don't do enough damage.

Remove the lethality on it, people will still buy it because the active is good but it doesn't give you as much damage.

I pretty much agree on this point. The active is powerful, and it's okay being that powerful. But such a powerful utility shouldn't be on such a powerful item, that it becomes core on just about any glass cannon. Particularly for those who already build lethality. As 60 AD and 15 lethality, puts it on par with all other lethality items in terms of offensive stats. Meaning that no one sacrifices any real damage, buying such an item to get that has a powerful defensive utility.

EoN pretty much needs to go the same path that Rylies' did. Make it less slot efficient, so that it becomes a more niche pick up.

SpecterVonBarenFeb 16, 20174 votes

Basically it's the AD equivalent of the old Hourglass.

SOLOQSUPERHEROFeb 16, 201711 votes

Being able to move is a big deal

SpecterVonBarenFeb 16, 20176 votes

That has nothing to do with what I said. Hourglass lost AP and got a reduced price because having it be a high AP item with such a great active made it a must have on anyone AP.

FTWolfFeb 17, 20171 votes

Being able to also invalidate a whole champs damage during a stasis is also a big deal. 80 ap also isnt anything to not like it also gives you 10% cdr now. If anything imo its just like hourglass except sine its finally assassin kill meta people are complaining about it. Its been a mage meta for quite some time in the mid lane.

NineTailedMysticFeb 17, 20173 votes

70 AP, 45 Armor, 10% CDR, 120s Active.

compared to ye olde 120 AP, 50 Armor, 90s Active. It was justified in getting nerfed, but now Edge of Night does the same thing old Hourglass did.

FTWolfFeb 17, 20171 votes

You can't really compare that it's less mr and usually champs get more armor per level than mr so the 50 armor was pretty huge, it practically covered all the armor pen a person would get then, and then maybe some.

A little PeepoFeb 17, 20171 votes

{quoted}

You can't really compare that it's less mr and usually champs get more armor per level than mr so the 50 armor was pretty huge, it practically covered all the armor pen a person would get then, and then maybe some.

EoN also negates all the magic pen a champion can build and yet more, ap champions only have 1 armor option where as ad have 2. These items can be compared because they have the same problem, a utility item that gives one of the highest raw stats for that class, zonyas gave 120 ap which was too high for a utility item, same with Rylais. Champions are abusing this item because there is no downfall building this item, you could simply get EoN for the stats same with what happened with zonyas and Rylais, items like these should have a downfall to them and should only serve the purpose of using the active while sacrificing power, not simply building because it gives a lot of power while also granting you defensive power. It's also pretty clear the item is being abused because this item was designed for assassins in mind not every ad champion that can abuse it, this item obviously needs it's offensive power reduced for having such a strong active, like zonyas and Rylais received, it's the same thing people complained about zonyas and Rylais, let's not be a hypocrite now.

SOLOQSUPERHEROFeb 17, 20171 votes

AD have 3. 2 of which involve negating spells, the other a huge defensive shield that builds from a very cost effective item when necessary.

Edge of Night Maw Quick Silver Scimitar.

AP champions can't buy QSS or a QSS item unless its absolutely necessary without a significant trade off on damage.

Risen29Feb 17, 20171 votes

{quoted}

AD have 3. 2 of which involve negating spells, the other a huge defensive shield that builds from a very cost effective item when necessary.

Edge of Night Maw Quick Silver Scimitar.

AP champions can't buy QSS or a QSS item unless its absolutely necessary without a significant trade off on damage.

That's what I said: It fits the AD theme of just powering through and enduring what the mages throws at them.

Mage itemization is generally more reactive and defensive, meant to keep the enemy away and stall them. -A lot of HP/AP hybrid items to survive burst and buy time. On top of two AD/AP items, and at least one MR/AP item (I'm not counting the more support oriented AP/MR items, but there are several to choose from). -Seraph's shield. -Zhonyas buys time and upsets combos. -Rylais slows. -Hextech GLP AoE slow. -gunblade slow (for some AP champions). -They have several items with percentage movespeed. -Protobelt dash.

AD Fighter/assassin itemization is generally more aggressive and aimed at helping you to sustain you get into position and then sustain your offense just long enough to get the kill. -Out of combat movespeed on items instead of percentage. -Two MR/AD items. -Spellshield. -CC cleanse. -Lifesteal to sustain the offensive. -Maw damage shield. -You do have a slow on blade of the ruined kind, but burst oriented fighters will never build it.

They have no decent options for HP/AD (because they are all meant for bruisers, and things like frozen mallet were nerfed to ensure only bruisers built them), except black cleaver which is being nerfed so that will probably become unviable on burst oriented lethality fighters.

SOLOQSUPERHEROFeb 22, 20171 votes

You didn't say anything? The post above said there were only 2 AD and MR items and there are 3 which is what I was correcting.

AD Fighters with this aren't as big of a problem. I think that there's a fundamental issue with a hyper aggressive and cost effecient banshees veil on them, but you can work around it for the most part.

The point I was making is that Edge of night has no meaningful trade offs. It has a lot of damage because of the lethality, it has defensive stats MR. And it has the active shield. I understand the purpose of it, but Sivir's spellshield was nerfed because it lasted a long time, this is like 4 times the duration of it and a shorter effective cooldown and everyone can use it. There's no justification to say that it's a balanced item.

AD champions have better access to MR defensive items period. They are also more useful. AP Champions have literally 1 item that is worth building for MR and 1 item that is worth building for AD and then HP items. ALL of those items save for RoA/GLP on certain champions take up 2 prescious item slots reserved for defensive items.

The only exception is Seraphs, which frankly is not built on most champions because they take forever to charge it.

AP Defensive items on the whole I would agree are more useful on an individual basis, but when you consider that you can build, Maw, BT, QSS, EoN, LW-Item and Duskblade end up up with 20% CDR, huge shields to get through, a large amount of penetration and magic resistance on something like Jhin/Varus and still deal a lot of damage to tanks with these items and have huge amounts of protection, they have way more items.

It sounds like your focus was more from the fighter/assassin space. Which to give you credit I think for fighters these are mostly ok. Assassins, I still think Edge of night needs to have things removed from it like it's lethality. There's a clear trade off in building something like maw or hex drinker with clear benefits. People do build it and it is still a good item, but its situational. This is what defensive itemization should be, it shouldn't be get a great effecient item, still deal tons of damage and have protection, especially on AD assassins who already have a lot going for them against mages to begin with, when you consider the reverse. Seekers while effecient if you build it first, you need to be much more careful with how you spend your mana; which makes a lot of lanes more difficult because you tend to get shoved anyway not to mention, Zhonyas as a second item save on a few champions does not do a lot for you unless you're just simply trying not to die. Does an assassin have to play ANY different when getting egde of night first? No.

Risen29Feb 22, 20171 votes

{quoted}

?

You didn't say anything? The post above said there were only 2 AD and MR items and there are 3 which is what I was correcting.

AD Fighters with this aren't as big of a problem. I think that there's a fundamental issue with a hyper aggressive and cost effecient banshees veil on them, but you can work around it for the most part. The point I was making is that Edge of night has no meaningful trade offs. It has a lot of damage because of the lethality, it has defensive stats MR. And it has the active shield. AD champions have better access to MR defensive items period. There's a clear trade off in building something like maw or hex drinker with clear benefits. People do build it and it is still a good item, but its situational.

Maw was no less a cost efficient anti-mage item as edge. There were no downsides to building it as an assassin if you were stacking arpen. You had equivalent armorpen. You had 10 less damage but 10 more MR. You had a magic damage shield instead of a spellshield. It was a little more defense oriented, whereas edge of night is a little more offense oriented - but that's actually what an assassin wants. An assassin benefits more from buying just enough time to get his burst off, and actually benefits more from blocking CC than damage in a lot of cases. Edge of night is not a new item in that sense, but just a tweak on an existing assassin item.

The true source of whining is not the stats on edge, but appears to be the spellshield specifically.

And assassins do need an efficient item like that. I've been doing the math recently on assassin vs mages and it becomes clear how much mages have an advantage over assassins when they build zhonyas and some HP/AP items, without sacrificing meaningful amounts of AP so they can still burst down squishy targets like assassins. Without the ability for assassins to gain a bit of MR without sacrificing their burst potential, they would be too easily countered by mages (which is their only real target after the ADC) to be viable. Assassins have no hybrid HP/AD/Arpen items like mages do. And the few HP/AD items in the game are not viable on assassins because they have specifically been nerfed to only work on bruiser builds. They give up too much AD for the HP. This is not the case with HP/AP items. Cleaver is a late game buy to help against tanks, but it's very inefficient for an assassin because their burst pattern means they gain little from it directly because all their damage is offloaded before the stacks are applied. They only help their team finish up, but it's being nerfed next patch in the same way frozen mallet was.

Does an assassin have to play ANY different when getting edge of night first? No. You give up damage and roam/gank potential going edge versus the other two lethality items. It is a more defensive pick if mages are giving you trouble. If you need an early dominiks to deal with tanks, edge of night might be one of the lethality item you put on hold for it.

So yes, you do give up something relative to other lethality/arpen items to get edge. But as I already pointed out, items and classes were designed in such a way that you aren't suppose to need to give up damage/arpen as an assassin in order to gain some magic defense.

ALL of those items save for RoA/GLP on certain champions take up 2 prescious item slots reserved for defensive items.

I've done the math in my thread on this subject, and you you lose almost no damage as Ahri against a squishy target if you go Sorcshoes/Rod of Ages/Zhonyas/Liandries/Rylais/Rabadons - Yet you become so highly survivable that no assassin can burst you down, and your return fire can kill them in a counterstrike.

That is a power that assassins don't have the ability to itemize for. If they do go AD/HP items, they lose the arpen they need to burst down squishies. Mages don't have to choose between mpen/AP and HP.

That's why having some easy magic resist in assassin items makes sense, because they have no other options to survive mage burst.

AP Defensive items on the whole I would agree are more useful on an individual basis, but when you consider that you can build, Maw, BT, QSS, EoN, LW-Item and Duskblade end up up with 20% CDR, huge shields to get through, a large amount of penetration and magic resistance on something like Jhin/Varus and still deal a lot of damage to tanks with these items and have huge amounts of protection, they have way more items.

A lethality stacking ADC does not deal huge damage to a properly itemized tank.

I proved this on Swain against a lethality stacking Varus, Lucian, and Garen - I went Sorcshoes, Zhonyas, all four HP/AP items, and finished off with a frozen heart for a total of 30% CDR and 30 MPEN with tons of mana and armor. None of them could kill me. I'd dive into their whole team and make them flee because they realized I wasn't going down, while killing them in the process of chasing them down.

It sounds like your focus was more from the fighter/assassin space.

I actually prefer to play both mages and assassins. I can be good on balanced fighters and tanky junglers, but I just don't find them as fun.

Which to give you credit I think for fighters these are mostly ok. Assassins, I still think Edge of night needs to have things removed from it like it's lethality.

As I already explained the necessity of EON for assassins, I have to point out that fighters actually are the ones who have the option of buying HP/AD items and benefiting from it.

An example is a game recently where a wukong went full armor/HP with only one damage item - a healing deaths dance. He was able to wreck out entire team because we had a stupid lethality stacking Jhin that was useless against him, while I was obviously a lethality stacking Talon so I also couldn't kill him 1vs1. It didn't help that he got fed off top and we were down items, but still, the point is he knew how to itemize to counter a team that had no attackspeed/crit damage dealers. Building that way on Talon would be pointless. Which is why you either go all arpen or you go home. You just try to shift to the targets that don't have defense and let your team deal with the tanky ones.

Seekers while effecient if you build it first, you need to be much more careful with how you spend your mana; The armor of Seekers negates 2 lethality items for the price of one. Losing out on mana early is a small price to pay if you are really in danger of getting snowballed on.

I personally go RoA first to get that stack going ASAP - and that gives me a balanced mix of everything I want to get rolling.

Then a seekers is a good follow up, giving you armor and AP. Then you don't have to finish the zhonyas, but can move on to something else that is more pressing, depending on what you need.

SOLOQSUPERHEROFeb 22, 20171 votes

While I am awful at math, but you didn't really show your math here I can't really comment on how accurate your math is, but I think you're missing a key point with a RoA rush and a Maw.

It seems like you're focusing on the stats it gives and not some of it's other effects and the value those have..

A fully stacked RoA is a great item, a non-fully stacked RoA is not. It also has no cdr when you compare it to morellos. You get more damage upfront right away without having to invest in other items than you do when rushing RoA. (Mages do need CDR. Zhonyas only gives 10%, where is the other 10% coming from? Perhaps abyssal if there's an ap champion on their team, protobelt you could argue maybe, but honestly it's not good if you're not making use of the dash. So now you might be SoL. You could go for a morellos afterwards also, but you're devoting a lot of stats to your mana pool now, which isn't necessarily the most useful thing.

THE ABOVE ALL SAID ABOUT ROA. It gives you a trade off. It is a good item and I like it very much, but it is a trade off that you can make, but it doesn't always make sense to do. It's pieces are hard to buy - especially if you aren't doing well in lane, it doesn't add a lot of value to you for awhile.

Maw, gives you value right away. You're not going to build warhammer first, you're going to go hex drinker and then sit on it. Hexdrinker is a very powerful item early game, and against a lot of mages can actually really ruin your chances of being able to kill an assassin; most of whom are already hard to hit, that when you do hit you've got that shield which early game, the hexdrinker a lone will likely prevent their death.

EoN while may not have as much damage as a duskblade, it does have a lot of defense associated with it and it's build path is much smoother with less of a trade off. So you're losing what is it, 10 lethality off duskblade for EoN to be able to completely absorb the enemy champions skill or prevent them from using one for 10 seconds. It's a pretty fair deal.

Lastly, the item is frankly not just for assassins and fighters, ADCs are building it too. Which makes a huge difference. It's not balanced properly to be that prolific. So necessary or not, it's power is quite high and it's build path is smooth and with little or no adjustment.

Heck, you don't even need to decide if you're going to build it first. Grab a serrated dirk on your first back and decide later. If a mage is going to go RoA instead of seekers or morellos, they're buying completely different items and have to make that decision early on.

If you want to do math on scaling a lone at the end result, it may come out to it's fine, but there is little reason not to buy EoN right now and it's an extremely powerful item.

to be clear I do not think that mage items are in a bad place, save for maybe there's a little too much of a decision to make over which defensive item you're going to get, I just do not think that there's a trade off to make with regard to edge of night. Maw, I think has one. You deal less damage with it, but you get a huge impact very quickly in terms of your survivability and it can absolutely change the lane in your favor.

And interms of AD/MR items, there are quit a few very different and very useful items that exist.

Risen29Feb 22, 20171 votes

{quoted}

While I am awful at math, but you didn't really show your math here I can't really comment on how accurate your math is

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/Pq5EANRL-psa-lethality-isnt-broken-you-can-learn-to-counter-it?show=flat&page=2

Page 2 has Ahri math, page 3 has Viktor math. As well as a Swain example on page 2.

The reason is pretty simple: It comes down to MPEN vs ARPEN. A mage can enhance their defense without giving up flat MPEN to do it, thus able to kill squishy assassins without being killed easily by them. An assassin doesn't really have any health or armor options to begin with, and are prevented from itemizing them because they have no choice but to get all three arpen items ASAP if they want to be able to stay relevant as an assassin.

One thing you don't realize about Maw is that you cannot itemize for it without sacrificing your next Lethality item, and that's not something you can do if you want to keep killing stuff. If you wait until your fifth item for Maw, then you've already gone most of the game without it and now you're just trying to survive longer to get your burst in. If they build armor and/or health you will have to itemize a dominiks before maw, if you want to keep killing stuff.

So Maw is almost never built on pure assassins for a reason - You need arpen to even function. It's not optional. You either are an assassin or you aren't. You really don't have the option of going bruiser because your kit doesn't compliment that playstyle.

A fully stacked RoA is a great item, a non-fully stacked RoA is not.

It's still good, you have a nice chunk or health and AP. Just as good as a protobelt. You are underestimating the value of health. In 10 minutes ROA becomes equal to a top tier AP and health defense item.

It also has no cdr when you compare it to morellos.

Few problems with that statement:

In the example I gave in my thread (the one I linked), you don't need to take all the HP/AP items to be survivable. You can still get a morellos if you want. And if you're doing well enough that you don't need as much defense, you can swap out a rylais for a rabadons or ludens on top of a morellos. It all depends on how well you're doing. Really good players can go full glass cannon and just evade, outposition, or outplay the assassin. Weaker players, or players with weaker teammates, need more defense to stay alive.
You have to make a tradeoff somewhere if you want maximum defense. You can't be the equivalent of a bruiser burst mage and not have to give up something, even if it's CDR. You can still easily get 20 CDR, or 30 CDR if you want to take lucidity boots. So you're not in that difficult a position. It comes down to what is more a priority for you, damage, defense, or CDR. The point is you can itemize for all three quite easily on a mage, it's just a matter of how much you want to emphasize one over the other based on your champion and your current performance level (if you are snowballing, just go strait damage. If you aren't, and anticipate trouble later, go hybrid defense/AP).
Not everyone needs early CDR. Some players are just more skilled about conserving their spells to use at the right moments, and not missing. Some champions are ok without it.

Maw, gives you value right away. You're not going to build warhammer first, you're going to go hex drinker and then sit on it. Hexdrinker is a very powerful item early game, and against a lot of mages can actually really ruin your chances of being able to kill an assassin; most of whom are already hard to hit, that when you do hit you've got that shield which early game, the hexdrinker a lone will likely prevent their death.

I've never found hex to be worth giving up lethality for when playing a pure assassin, because you are made or broke by your ability to burst targets down. You don't want to stick around to auto attack them thanks to Maw. You don't do much damage that way, and all your abilities are unlikely to come back off cooldown before the fight is over.

EoN while may not have as much damage as a duskblade, it does have a lot of defense associated with it and it's build path is much smoother with less of a trade off.

You missed a critical point: Edge is no different than Maw was before it. Maw use to have equivalent damage, armor pen, and magic resist. Nobody whined about it.

The reason nobody whined about it is because the magic resist is not what they really care about - The active spellshield is what they are really raging against.

So you're losing what is it, 10 lethality off duskblade for EoN to be able to completely absorb the enemy champions skill or prevent them from using one for 10 seconds. It's a pretty fair deal.

No, you are forgetting the passive on duskblade to do extra burst damage. And it's passive which disables wards. Duskblade is the better roaming assassin pick if you aren't getting dumped on by magic users in lane.

Ghostblade is also currently picked first on almost every champion for a reason: you get 5 more lethality - and movespeed is generally more useful for offense and defense than the edge spellshield is. Unless, again, you happen to be getting dumped on by a magic user in lane.

I'll take either of those two before edge if I can. I don't know if, after the ghostblade nerfs, I will buy it first. It might become either a second or third buy depending on what the enemy's magic threat is.

Lastly, the item is frankly not just for assassins and fighters, ADCs are building it too. Which makes a huge difference. It's not balanced properly to be that prolific. So necessary or not, it's power is quite high and it's build path is smooth and with little or no adjustment.

No, it actually doesn't matter as far as itemization goes - Because an ADC doesn't have the capability to build HP or armor defense either. They are in the same boat as an assassin. The mages they are up against have more ways of mitigating the damage a lethality ADC dishes out than the ADC has of mitigating incoming damage from the mage.

In fact, a lethality stacking ADC is basically little more than an AD ability caster mage. That's why they suck against bruisers and tanks, or even heavily defense itemized mages.

Edge is about the only item they've got to do it with. If they were to build schim or maw they would be severely gimping thier ability to function as an ADC, because although an assassin might get away with not building a dominiks and just going for the squishies - you as the ADC had better be building a dominiks because your job is to hit everyone in a teamfight.

to be clear I do not think that mage items are in a bad place, save for maybe there's a little too much of a decision to make over which defensive item you're going to get, I just do not think that there's a trade off to make with regard to edge of night. Maw, I think has one. You deal less damage with it, but you get a huge impact very quickly in terms of your survivability and it can absolutely change the lane in your favor.

The old maw didn't have any downside to it compared with edge of night. They are basically the same in terms of power level, just different in how they approach it.

I suspect the only reason they didn't remove Maw outright to replace it with Edge, is because they want bruiserish AD's who are more defense oriented (and aren't building lethality) to have an option more suited to them. No ADC or Assassin really benefits from building Maw without the arpen. You're better off building more lethality so you can actually kill the mage in question.

And interms of AD/MR items, there are quit a few very different and very useful items that exist.

There are three, and only one of which you'll ever see assassins or ADCs building. Maw isn't worthwhile to prioritize when you have edge of night and Maw gives no arpen. You'd also have to be even more stupid to build a schimitar on an assassin/ADC unless you're dealing with a 100% magic damage team.

Skipping a lethality item to build hex is possible, but almost nobody does it because it doesn't pay off to skip lethality. You're better off getting edge and then trying to outplay your opponent.

If anything you should be happy that you're dealing with edge of night instead of Maw as the old arpen item - because Maw is a much stronger defensive item in a dive, but on a longer cooldown. Maw also can't be baited out with a weak spell like Edge, or evaded until it's cooldown is up. Because you have to unload your burst to even activate Maw, and the assassin is probably already in your face if you're unloading your burst on them.

SOLOQSUPERHEROFeb 23, 20171 votes

I think you're really missing the point, which is EoN has far too much power on it to be as effective of a buy as it is. Period. Riot agrees. You can disagree if you want, but unfortunately the majority of the community and the game itself disagrees.

There's not a meaningful trade off to purchasing it, the numbers aren't the same because you have to factor in fundamental differences that I don't believe you are such as an auto attack from an AD champion does a lot of damage vs. an AP. And how much out of the way high health items can force a mage from an optimal build path. I don't think mage items are underpowered, I think they are fine, there are good decisions to be made with what item to buy each game (save for maybe morellos is too ideal for most mages as an automatic first buy) but the rest are quite varied and based on the game.

EoN is too appealing, too strong to not want to buy. Maw & Hex Drinker are a great example of a good item that you may want to buy in that game or you may not.

Risen29Feb 23, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I think you're really missing the point, which is EoN has far too much power on it to be as effective of a buy as it is.

No, you've missed the point I made: Which is that the old Maw was just as powerful as EoN. And you can't drastically nerf EoN without it being a net nerf to assassins, because at some point they would be better off just going back to the old Maw.

Riot agrees.

They don't agree with what most of what you want to do. They are talking about doing as something as minor as increasing the cooldown on the active. That would be a reasonable change, because the old Maw did have a long cooldown on it's active.

What would not be a warranted change is reducing the stats on EoN in terms of damage or magic resist, because at that point you are making the item worse than the old Maw.

Replacing Maw with EoN was suppose to be a buff to assassin viability, not a nerf.

There's not a meaningful trade off to purchasing it,

You failed to understand anything I said earlier: Maw was in the same boat. There was no "trade off" at all for an assassin purchasing it. They needed it for the flat arpen and damage regardless, so it's build order depended on how bad the magic threat was.

The old ghostblade and duskblade were still better arpen items to build first if you wanted more damage, and you weren't worried about oppressive magic damage.

the numbers aren't the same because you have to factor in fundamental differences that I don't believe you are such as an auto attack from an AD champion does a lot of damage vs. an AP.

Largely irrelevant as far as AD caster mages go. You don't seem to understand their playstyle or limitations. A melee assassin doesn't want to stick around long enough to auto because they will likely die without accomplishing much, because only a small percentage of their total damage output comes from auto attacks and they have no attack speed boosts and little or no added defense to stay in close combat for extended periods of time without dying.

A ranged AD caster mage (an ADC going full lethality), is equally gimped in their ability to deal auto attack damage because they have no attack speed or crit. That's why they are completely useless against bruisers or tanky mages. Like ranged mages, they are all about poke and bursting down any squishy that gets too close.

And how much out of the way high health items can force a mage from an optimal build path.

I provided the math already, go look at it. The answer: Barely any.

It's absolutely crippling to a lethality assassin because you can easily survive their burst but they can't survive yours.

On top of that: Other tools that come with those items like slows, sustain, and dash help you only to battle on your terms, and stasis is the get out of jail free card as long as you have a teammate nearby who can get them off you.

Risen29Feb 23, 20171 votes

{quoted}

You can look at numbers all you want in posts, but you can't compare apples (AD Itemization) and oranges (AP itemization) in terms of practicality, build path and choices. It doesn't work.

I am not the one who started comparing itemization. You're the one who started claiming that it's unfair to put both AD/lethality and magic defense on a single item. And in just about every lethality thread you have ignorant people whining about how unfair it is that assassins have offensive options with magic defense on it.

I addressed that by pointing out how itemization really works in this game - Mages are the ones who truly have the defensive and mpen itemization advantage against assassins.

So much so, that without the previous arpen maw or the new lethality edge of night assassins would get dumped on by everything in the game (as long as they itemized properly) but the ADC - because ADC's are the only class in the game that have no real offensive/defensive item options. Lifesteal is the only thing they have going for them, while assassins only have some MR. Mage AP items get oodles of health, utility, with both armor and MR options. Bruiser options obviously provide ample defense with offense, but they aren't viable items for assassins and ADCs to build, otherwise they cease to be able to assassinate or carry with AD (they just become a weak bruiser).

Assassins have literally no other offensive/defensive options that are viable if they don't have one with arpen/AD on it, because they have no choice but to build arpen to function; whereas mages are full of viable offensive/defensive options - Allowing mages to easily deal true damage against an assassin while gaining a net defensive advantage against even a full lethality stacking assassin. About the only item that is even semi-viable on an assassin is Maw, but you cannot afford to prioritize it before your other arpen items if you want to remain relevant as an assassin.

Riot is nerfing the item. Not necessarily my HUMBLE suggestion but the point is the item in its current state is too strong and needs adjustments. The active is extremely powerful, and it's meant to be so; it doesn't mean it was well executed.

I can agree that the cooldown could use some adjustments. I have no problem with there being bigger windows of downtime. And that's what they are talking about doing.

But anyone who suggests we need more than that does not understand assassin vs mage itemization or proper balance. It is utterly unecessary to nerf it's damage or lethality, especially since it has less MR than Maw did before it. You got 10 less MR for 10 more damage. Both have a passive geared towards giving you burst survivability against AP users.

There's clearly an issue with the item and clearly an issue with Lethality builders as a whole which Riot is attempting to address.

That part is the biggest lie being bandied about on this forum. Mathematically it can be proven completely false. Lethality builds are no more powerful than flat arpen builds were before them. An extra 10 arpen at level 18 only accomplished the goal of helping arpen to not fall off as hard late game as it use to, but that by itself is not what is causing people so much grief.

In fact, when you talk to these lethality whiners, the only thing they are really complaining about is EoN specifically. And as far as EoN goes, the only thing they are really complaining about is the spellshield.

You could stack the old arpen with cleaver and dominiks too. People just weren't doing it as much. Now with the nerfs to the later two, lethality is completely fine.

The "problem" of ADC's going lethality is also vastly overstated, and not really a problem at all. Only 3 out of the top 15 most played ADCs are going lethality, and the top winrates show that there's an equal mix of attack speed and lethality users.

There's also, conceptually and balance wise, nothing at all wrong with an ADC choosing to become a burst AD caster mage - because they cease to really truly be an ADC at that point. You can't carry with your attack damage if you can't kill tanks. A full lethality build cannot kill a bruiser/tank before being taken down by them. You need attack speed to deal with tanks or your team will get completely bulled over by bruisers/tanks in every teamfight.

ktorywygrywaFeb 16, 20171 votes

maybe add a slow after it pops like blitz ability

SOLOQSUPERHEROFeb 16, 20173 votes

That would make it really bad I think.

Mizuki ZahraFeb 16, 20171 votes

ya a slow isn't the best idea but they should rework it a little. have you played with eon since i don't see any recent games @ktorywygrywa

ktorywygrywaFeb 16, 20171 votes

listen here ass face ur bronze shit so ur opinion doesn't matter 200 + games 3 years and still in the shithole lol [zombie-brand-mindblown]

TwinkieProFeb 16, 20174 votes

That was uncalled for. Ironic as well from a level 15.

ktorywygrywaFeb 25, 20171 votes

[deleted]

TwinkieProFeb 27, 20171 votes

Start leveling more accounts then, something tells me there will be more bans if you keep up that attitude.

Also, unless your are plat, its an alternate account, not a smurf. You aren't good enough to call it that.

ktorywygrywaMar 1, 20171 votes

Lol ok 1v1 no runes no masters just plain vanilla Champs on aram map let go if u punk think u can out punk me

TwinkieProMar 2, 20171 votes

Please refrain yourself.

You're lowering the IQ of the entire boards community.

ktorywygrywaMar 2, 20171 votes

Wow someone's scared to 1v1 noob

Mizuki ZahraFeb 25, 20173 votes

lol this kid, I actually had to change my summoner name because this kid wouldn't leave me alone (like I get a lot of friend invites daily for different teams form college tourneys.) so I would add everyone and then bam

"this is ashe u prick etc etc etc" from like 4 different accounts lol I was stalked so I had to delete everyone and block his accounts then change my name and now im hesitant to add people. this occurred for like 3 months

LankPantsFeb 16, 201723 votes

Edge of Night was supposed to be an item for assassins that allowed them to go in on opportune moments without fear of being instantly CC locked.

Personally I don't even view that as a good goal for the game. Assassins should be playing around CC, not ignoring it.

I can't think of a good reason to leave EoN in the game at this point. I think removing it would be the best overall option for game health.

Amasa DelanoFeb 16, 20176 votes

If the cooldown for EoN is high enough, I would say that using Edge of Night at just the appropriate time to block a key CC you know the enemy has up IS playing around CC. It should be accessible as a once in a long while, playmaking ability though, not "up 2/3 of the time" ability.

XonraFeb 17, 20173 votes

It is funny because I said almost word for word "Assassins should be playing around CC, not ignoring it" when they first talked about the item. Couldn't agree more.

Risen29Feb 17, 20171 votes

{quoted}

It is funny because I said almost word for word "Assassins should be playing around CC, not ignoring it" when they first talked about the item. Couldn't agree more.

There is no playing around a team that holds a CC in reserve to lock you down the moment you try to jump in and do your job. You have no wait of baiting that out or negating it.

There are still other things your team can do to disrupt the assassin or shield the carry, but it requires more effort than just locking them down and blowing them up the moment they dive in.

superfire444Feb 17, 20172 votes

item 3139 item 3140

Kirius DarkFeb 16, 201712 votes

IMO just remove it. Having a single item counter a huge amount of champion's combos, CC or escapes isnt healthy. Why pick xx champ when 1 item negates a massive portion of their power?

XilixerFeb 16, 20171 votes

cough Malzahar item 3139 cough

SH AzykanFeb 16, 20173 votes

implying most of malz's power atm is just his ult? not his level 1-3 voidlings forcing literally any melee out of lane bot and almost outright killing champs like zyra if they are pushed up at all.

Blackstone01Feb 17, 20172 votes

Karthus feels the pain. The moment I saw the item I knew any opportunity for karthus to have a chance to be viable was tossed out the window.

TotalJerkFeb 17, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Level 18 Feeder,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7JlsX7tQ,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2017-02-16T16:16:25.506+0000)

Having a single item counter a huge amount of champion's combos, CC or escapes isnt healthy.

item 3102 item 3026 item 3155 item 3222 item 3140 item 3157 ?

ValyrianBladeFeb 16, 20177 votes

Reducing the duration is the most important. You know when you're going in - you should activate it accordingly.

It's so tilting to see a fed graves running to me as ahri and I'm better off using charm on the spell-shield because it'll be back up before his shield would have gone down...

The low cooldown is okay in my opinion because it encourages its use to try to make plays. The counterplay should be holding your abilities to wait it out, rather than using a different ability to break it (sorry i just cleared the wave with my q, my w doesn't have the range, my only option is to Charm). Let him try every 30sec, but let me run for 3 sec then charm him as it wears off so he's punished for committing when i had vision.

FawkseaFeb 16, 20176 votes

make it melee only ranged people in the backline dont need a spellshield MissFortune Jhin

HellioningFeb 17, 20172 votes

Neither does Rengar.

iamthegoatofwarFeb 16, 20176 votes

Rather they just remove it

NotCounterFeb 16, 20175 votes

it's a pretty dumb item, called it the second i saw it added on pbe.

if its intention is to be an anti-CC item and not an anti-assassin item, why not just make the active a CC immunity instead of blocking everything? for example: 100% tenacity for 1/1.5 seconds

although their intentions don't make much sense, if they wanted an item for assassins to not be blown up by CC why not just make another item with the QSS active that has lethality instead of life steal?

Luxs DestinyFeb 16, 20174 votes

It's an active that lasts one third of the cooldown. It's really .. lacking punishment. There's no reason to NOT use it when it's off cooldown, imo.

lolipopevelynnFeb 16, 20174 votes

Its because riot is too chicken shit to make melee exclusive items.

AdriqnoheeFeb 16, 20171 votes

item 3074 item 3742 item 3748 Riot has no problem making melee only items, its just a dumb bandage fix that also has the potential to completely fuck them in the future, not only does it block them from making a ranged AD assassin, but it doesn't even fix the thing people are crying about, ADCs aren't building it because its broken, they build it because they can use the items to be useful before the 30 minutes mark, they build it because Crit is a shitty stat both to them and to the enemy, and making the items melee only won't fix item 3814 's shield.

PB4UAMEFeb 17, 20173 votes

Crit is the highest damage increasing stat in the game. You can have your cake or eat it. Stop making RIOT bend over backwards to warp the game around ADC mains. Fucking 7 years is already too goddamn long.

AdriqnoheeFeb 17, 20171 votes

But its also the most expensive and the one that takes the longest to start rolling, and in a game that normally ends before 25 minutes, a stat that only becomes relevant after 30 is almost pointless, and let me tell you something, crit is what makes ADCs so powerful and the reason they've been the focus of the game for 7 years, compare the DPS of a full build ADC building crit, and the DPS of a ADC building AmP, Crit is a much stronger stat to build, but it takes so long to start being effective, that AmP is the preferable right now.

PB4UAMEFeb 17, 20172 votes

Damage being overloaded and the game being too snowbally is not a reason to buff crit, nor claim it's shit. Crit is also never a shitty stat for an AD auto attacker as it multiplies the effectiveness and gold efficiency of literally every other AD related stat including armor pen. It then gets additional modifier to scale on itself, and so with everything else even harder, conveniently also on one of the highest AD items in the game.

Damage as a whole needs to be nuked from orbit, armor pen/lethality needs to go back to the drawing board, and RIOT needs to remove many snowball mechanics that they added recently for negative gains-- none of this makes crit shitty, and none of this means any changes to crit need to happen, unless they are part of the aforementioned damage gutting.