auto attackers need a gimmick to be healthy (imo)

Moody P··8 votes·1,467 views

What I mean by this is that a good AA focused design should have some sort of condition set in either through a downtime or a window or having to do X thing before they power up. These conditions also usually help play into a champion's niche

Some good examples of healthy AA champions are Darius, Nasus, Ezreal, Fiora and Jhin. Darius gives you a clear window before he gets a flat but huge power spike and becomes a major threat; Ezreal has to land his spells and be in AA range to do significant DPS; Jhin is obvious. I would also say Trundle has a healthy concept to his gimmick as his thing is weakening other opponents, but the execution could probably be handled differently. I think Yasuo is also good design in terms of his autos, with the rest of his kit being up for debate (not a fan of his triple dip into innate defense personally).

Some examples of bad AA designs are Tryndanere, Jax, Udyr, Shyvana, Volibear, Dr. Mundo, Jinx and Tristana. They don't really do anything around their AAs; they just auto attack you a lot and hope that it works out for them, and so they're not really good unless those AAs are just better than everyone else's -- not necessarily a pure stat check but they are a bit too heavy on a numbers game over having a mechanic that makes them worth something. Most ADCs I think have this issue because of how their items usually dominate over their kits, but that's a separate conversation than what I actually want to bring up.

I want to talk about the ones who are up for VGUs, coincidentally the ones I like to play, because they're most relevant to the point I want to make. Since a good portion of AA centric juggernauts are up for overhauls in the near future, I would like to contend that they should stay AA centric but have some gimmick added to that to create a better gameplay loop that can give them a more appropriate role to play in the game, something that makes them a bit more respectable and fitting in more reasonably into League.

A bit stream of consciousness but I hope I got the point across.

24 Comments

Stillshade3 votes

ezreal and healthy? Are you serious?

Moody P2 votes

Yes. I think Ezreals inherent gameplay loop is perfectly fine; the little details like his on hit abuse are what makes him dumb but the core of his kit -- land skillshots for better DPS and then commit to doing that DPS -- is perfectly good.

And I'm saying this as someone who plays champions that have a very hard time dealing with Ezreal.

Marshbouy3 votes

Moody P: Here are some examples of healthy auto attackers

Moody P: lists a bunch of extremely unhealthy auto attackers

Moody P2 votes

Most of the problems these champions have had in balance have been unrelated to auto attacking except for Ezreal.

I think my point is fairly stable. You're welcome to explain why it's not.

The Ecdysiast2 votes

{quoted}

Moody P: Here are some examples of healthy auto attackers

Moody P: lists a bunch of extremely unhealthy auto attackers

He didn't even list auto-attackers aside from Nasus. The rest are casters who sometimes auto-attack. Pretty much the same as how Zed's passive is a buffed auto-attack.

He's just angry that there are stat-check champions that function differently from the stat-check champions he knows how to play and beat, because he refuses to actually build defense on juggernauts like you're supposed to do when the enemy has more damage.

The dude's bias towards juggernauts is apparent no matter what he's talking about.

Moody P4 votes

mind numbingly stupid post

Darius and Trundle are auto attackers. Ezreal will deal as much if not more damage through AAs than Q alone. Fiora is an auto attacker because Q is a glorified attack reset and E is also an attack reset and modifier.

I listed 3 champs that are direct counters to juggernauts as good designs. I also listed mostly juggernauts in the ones that have poor AA based patterns. Use your head for a minute. I know that might be difficult.

because he refuses to actually build defense

I'm not sure how you pulled this out of your ass, for one. For two, I distinctly remember you telling me that juggernauts building for durability was abuse of tank items. Interesting change of opinion, but I'm sure its only out of convenience.

D357R0Y3R1 votes

it's hilarious to see you smiting people

5050BS3 votes

I agree.

The bad auto attacks your listed are just stat check champions. You ether win vs them or loss based on their Items and Level only.

Abibyama II2 votes

Warwick's "win more at half health" gimmick works pretty good I guess?

Would say the same for Olaf's axes

Moody P1 votes

I think WWs gimmick could have been done in a more satisfying way but yeah, I think he's a fine design in that regard.

Olaf is probably one of the best juggernaut designs for how consistently successful he is without being overbearing

D357R0Y3R1 votes

olaf is successful because most of his damage AND stickness come from hitting a spammable skillshot, while mundo for instance can stick to you with his ult bonus ms and W tenacity without hitting Qs.

Moody P2 votes

Mundo also has basically 100% uptime on his E that gives him a Darius passive worth of AD. That's why I don't really like him; he's not really doing anything, he's just whacking you down and hoping it works

Alzon2 votes

Some of these gimmicks that provide clear windows of power are kinda toxic in execution. Exhibit A: standing at the very edge of EXP range while Irelia or Draven slow-pushes. The ability to keep such a huge steroid permanently stacked off of minions, or at least for several minutes at a time, is very, very frustrating to play against, with very little counterplay. This is why Conqueror was reworked, since it gave every champion access to this mechanic.

Moody P2 votes

In a way they have a counterplay because they have to keep pushing if they don't want to lose that momentum. I do agree that Irelia being able to keep up her passive indefinitely is not reasonable for a champion with such a bursty opening combo, but as far as lane goes I think you just need to respect that power up.

I'm more annoyed by the fact that Irelia passive scales like 3 different ways innately with itself since it provides on hit damage, that on hit scales with her AD, and she gets innate attack speed to apply that more often. Steroid passive is IMO too loaded and self sufficient.

Saevum2 votes

I Would have mentioned Kindred.

D357R0Y3R1 votes

Some autoattackers have some drawbacks like vayne having no way to damage beyond her range meaning that she takes risk in teamfight against heavy CC comps.

The worst to me is master yi, he literally just press R+E without any conditions and get massive power on his autoattacks while being able to dodge CCs with his Q that has 70% reset with ult.

The thigh guy1 votes

How is Darius auto’s healthy but jinx isn’t?

Darius Stacking bleed damage that eventually turns into a mortal combat fatality, and conquerer makes it even better. Jinx. Stacking attack speed or increased range and aoe.

Seems like Darius gets quite a bit more outa this deal.

Moody P4 votes

Darius is gimped by melee range and terrible attack speed, Jinx has steroids available at a button tap and needs less time to ramp up while also not really being a champion you can kite.

Jinx can also freely choose between "attack faster" or "hit harder" neither of which create any interesting gameplay where Darius does

D357R0Y3R3 votes

the thing that bothers me more is that jinx Q steroid doesn't have downtime while darius bonus ad takes 4 seconds to be avaible, and then disappear if enemies stop fighting you for 5 seconds

The thigh guy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Au4b6u1L,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2019-04-16T22:53:06.784+0000)

Darius is gimped by melee range and terrible attack speed, Jinx has steroids available at a button tap and needs less time to ramp up while also not really being a champion you can kite.

Jinx can also freely choose between "attack faster" or "hit harder" neither of which create any interesting gameplay where Darius does

Darius attackspeed is irrelevant with a reset built into his kit.

Also she has to attack 3 consecutive times to get her as steroid sooo not really at the push of a button.

Jinx also has no gap closer, if at any point you get anywhere near her she dies instantly.

Darius is far from “interesting gameplay” What about “if he touches you, you die without question” is interesting?

Lovelle1 votes

Darius has more going for him than auto-attacks though, he has a ton of burst damage with his Q and ult, plus he can sustain while moving, assuming enemies are in range. Not sure I would consider him a healthy champion. He's fully melee and offers nothing to a team other than damage. If he has a bad matchup there's just nothing he can do about it, he has to wait on them to make a mistake first. Contrarily, the matchups that he wins he dominates, and the only option the opponent has is simply to never engage. He is pretty much the epitome of everything wrong with juggernaut design.

Not sure I would consider Ezreal healthy either, as he single-handedly ruins itemization that would otherwise be great for melee champions. When played well, no one can really get in range of him. Godlike poke in and out of lane. Definitely has an annoying design.

Fiora would be fine if she didn't deal %max hp true damage, everything else about her kit is fair.

Most of Mundo's strength comes from his strong poke and crazy good waveclear/clearing speed. He may deal some damage with his autos, but most of his damage is magical and is dealt in AoE and %hp damage from cleaver spam. Shyvana is in the same boat, as her waveclear/clearing speed are just as absurd as his, but she tends to be a better duelist. I think she stacks AP and plays more like a mage these days, but that's only what I've seen. I've never actually played her.

I agree Udyr's design isn't the greatest. He's only good for the first 10-15 minutes and then he basically becomes a stunbot. I'm sure Riot's aware he needs a rework, but he has a fanbase that I think they're trying to avoid upsetting, same thing with Nasus.

Trundle imo is one of the most balanced auto-attackers. 99% of his damage comes from auto-attacking, yet he can still contribute to his team winning without building (or hardly doing) any damage. Excluding Ashe, he's the only auto-attacker that can be played as a pure support. Not only auto-attackers, but more of the juggernauts should offer unique utility like Trundle does. If they have to sacrifice damage for that than so be it, utility never stops being useful.

I would say Jax is fine design-wise. He may be all auto-attacks, but he does have options for outplaying an opponent, while having plenty of counterplay himself. He's meant to deal damage, and he can reliably deal that damage as long as he doesn't initiate, and can even turn games around with a well placed stun + usage of his ult. He's just overtuned right now, because Riot directly buffed him, plus he synergizes incredibly well with Conqueror, which is entirely too strong of a keystone, but unfortunately it's all that melee auto-attackers have right now.

Ravenous Howls1 votes

Though I despise Darius's design as I think he's more of AD caster than an AA Juggernaut, same as illaoi, Urgot and Olaf. These champions have extremely strong AD scaling abilities and very little that scales off AP like Trundle and Nasus do. Making their build paths stronger and allows them to scale and snowball quicker which is not a healthy design. However all these champions suffer against strong ranged AD champions like Vayne (whole other problem champ that I won't discuss right now), Neeko on hit and Quinn. They also fair poorly vs AP ranged laners like Teemo, Rumble and Viktor Top. This makes playing them, as a first pick, almost trolling. Their design auto makes them fair poorly vs almost any ranged match up which is not healthy champ counter play especially early game.

That said I believe they need to exist b/c there are much larger problem champs that are both resource less and are highly mobile with great scaling and AD synergy. Riven, Renekton, Aatrox (less now but he's getting buffed again), Tryndamere and Garen. If these champs are not shut down early and get early kills the game is pretty much done. They scale well b/c of conqueror and CDR saturation and it's why we need Darius and other like him b/c they are so oppressive they have a chance of shutting the resource less champions down.

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