300 gold buff to IE made marksmen overpowered

D357R0Y3R·May 6, 2018·26 votes·8,239 views

But somehow, +300 gold nerf on IE +200 gold on RFC +200 gold on shiv +200 gold on LDR is not a huge nerf

63 Comments

HethaleanMay 6, 201818 votes

It's 2k18. Reason need not apply

Death by GlamourMay 6, 201813 votes

if those were the only changes to those items then yes, they would be nerfs.

but they aren't, overall adcs get a sizable buff outside of early

D357R0Y3RMay 6, 201813 votes

what sizable buff?

+30 damage against tanks?

don't make me laugh

Death by GlamourMay 7, 20187 votes

did you not see the IE true damage passive

or that Last whisper in its original form is returning

D357R0Y3RMay 7, 201815 votes

yea, and literally everyone did the maths behind the changes

the damage of adcs are going up by 30 or 40 against 200 armor targets

very compensated, much wow

Irelia BotMay 7, 20185 votes

{quoted}

yea, and literally everyone did the maths behind the changes

the damage of adcs are going up by 30 or 40 against 200 armor targets

very compensated, much wow

The math is 62.5 Armor or more taking more damage if calculating for new infinity edge calculation combined with the 10% higher crit chance compared to the live version with a single zeal item. This being the case it is hard to not call it an all around buff. This does not include the extra 10 AD which is a 350 gold value on it's own.

D357R0Y3RMay 7, 20188 votes

[{quoted}](name=Irelia Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Asqn6m47,comment-id=00010000000000000001,timestamp=2018-05-07T01:58:58.759+0000)

The math is 62.5 Armor or more taking more damage if calculating for new infinity edge calculation combined with the 10% higher crit

that's a lie

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/399204891056275456/441375920495001610/unknown.png

someone on the french boards made the math and you're losing 2 damage against a 121 armor target with 250 AD the less armor you have, the more damage you lose

Irelia BotMay 7, 20183 votes

{quoted}

that's a lie

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/399204891056275456/441375920495001610/unknown.png

someone on the french boards made the math and you're losing 2 damage against a 121 armor target with 250 AD the less armor you have, the more damage you lose

If you are talking 2 zeal items with given the 80% vs 100% The breaking point becomes 100 armor.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1qoDNOpodHbYjrrS6kpan1Y8YthpmaOIuPMpvilpOq9g/edit#gid=0

If my calculations are wrong then point out how they are wrong otherwise I am going to have to disregard your statement as someone who does not know how the calculations work and therefore could be easily be referring to wrong information.

Reminder that this only calculates in the IE changes regarding crit and not the +10 AD.

D357R0Y3RMay 7, 20183 votes

[deleted]

PB4UAMEMay 7, 20182 votes

Damage multiplier from armor {100/armor + 100 if Armor >/= 0 {2 - 100/100-armor if armor < 0

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Armor

Its a piecewise function exactly as he typed it for the relevant formula and you have abso-fucking-lutely no goddamn clue what bullshit you're spewing.

The break even point on armor is 62.5 when you factor in the increased AD on IE, the increased crit chance, and the true damage conversion.

Just looking at the crit chance and true damage conversion it breaks even around 100 armor, and with out taking into account the extra crit chance, the break even point is 125 armor.

At any point past base armor, ADCs have a sizable damage buff after 3 items, and you apparently have both no clue what the relevant formulas are, nor how do do maths. Stop the perpetuation of lies and bullshit.

Good day sir.

D357R0Y3RMay 7, 20183 votes

i deleted my post then

but i went to test on PBE against a 100 armor target:

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/417343820108267542/443096093459349514/unknown.png?width=1192&height=671

damage on live:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/417343820108267542/443097669402099723/unknown.png

so nop

PB4UAMEMay 7, 20182 votes

Comparing a single auto vs long term average of autos is completely disingenuous as you are totally ignoring the extra 20% crit chance you are given.

You get 0/60/120% crit chance now, as opposed to 20/50/80% so at 2 items there is 10% higher crit, and by three items a full 20% more, for a perfect 100% crit chance (or 25% increase from live).

Its .80(2.5AD) + .2(1.0AD) physical damage for live vs .2(2.0AD) true damage + .8(2.0AD) physical damage with new IE.

Equivalent to 2.2 AD physical damage on average per auto for live vs .4 AD true damage + 1.6 AD physical damage on PBE.

The scaling is almost the same rate on average of 2.2 AD all physical to 2.0AD but 20% of it is true damage. The break even point for that, when using the correct damage formula is the point where the new .4AD true damage is equivalent to the .6AD physical damage you are losing out on from the old IE crit multiplier. This comes at 33% damage reduction or at about 50-60 armor and ignored the extra 10 AD new IE also gives.

D357R0Y3RMay 7, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Comparing a single auto vs long term average of autos is completely disingenuous as you are totally ignoring the extra 20% crit chance you are given.

i'm not, but even if you take it in account the damage is not higher, because even if you don't crit you still deal with 300 ad

and that's 100 armor

Also riot did not want to nerf the DPS of adcs, they wanted to nerf their burst damage against squishies

yep

Yets4240May 7, 20182 votes

Then, what did you do? All I see is one screenshot of two different dummies on practice tool with different amounts of damage/DPS done to them, but I see no comparison at all of old IE vs new IE.

And the person you are responding to has the same maths I have seen.

Going from 80% crit and a 2.5 crit multiplier gives you an average of

.80(2.5AD) for crits + .20(1.0AD) for non-crits, giving you 2.0 + .2 or 2.2 total AD scaling on average.

New IE doubles crit chance, so with 1 zeal its 60% crit chance, and with 2 its over capped beyond 100%, but you lose out on the 50% extra crit damage to instead convert 20% of the crit to true damage.

so with 1 zeal its .60(1.6AD) physical damage + .60(.4AD) true damage for crits + .40(1.0AD) for non-crits or 1.36AD physical damage and .24AD true damage (1.6 AD ratio, with 15% of the damage being true damage).

With 2 zeals its 1.0(1.6AD) physical damage and 1.0(.4AD) true damage, and everything ever is a crit.

So, like them, all I can see is the difference being -200 gold, + 10 AD and being far better against every single champion in the game, who all have more base armor than the break even point.

The difference is 1.6-2.2AD physical damage + .4AD true damage. This simplifies to -.6AD physical damage to .4AD true damage.

We set them equal to each other. .6AD physical = .4AD true. this occurs when the physical damage multiplier is .6666_ (pretend that underscore is a vinculum)

The physical damage multiplier comes from armor and is equal to (100/100+armor) if armor is a positive number.

.6666 = 100/100+x.

The two solutions to this are x = -100 (which doesn't work because our armor formula is a piecewise function, that actually changes if x or our armor value, is negative) or x = 51.5151515_ (another vinculum)

Really, this means new IE will be better at 52 armor or more. Every champion except Thresh has much higher base armor than this and he gets .75 per soul anyway. Ashe and Cait have just over 80 armor at 18 for example, and almost no one is below 70. By levels 10 or so, most champions have higher base armor than the break even point for the new IE, and it is literally half the base armor of tanks and juggernauts.

D357R0Y3RMay 7, 20181 votes

he wanted me to take in account the 80% crit

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/417343820108267542/443097620223885322/unknown.png?width=1192&height=671

this is the damage of a non crit attack that i already took in account

also riot wants to nerf BURST AGAINST SQUISHIES not dps, so 100% crit or 80% crit doesn't matter in a burst scenario

and the less armor you have, the bigger the difference is

Yets4240May 7, 20182 votes

also riot wants to nerf BURST AGAINST SQUISHIES not dps, so 100% crit or 80% crit doesn't matter in a burst scenario

I heavily disagree with this statement as it is completely ridiled in poor definitions, assumptions, or entire missing premises.

Burst occurs over a specified time table. As we have not defined the time table, and ADCs can get 2.5 attacks off per second (or even more with PtA and new items coming in). If the burst window was defined as a 1 second interval, which is about the lowest it can even make sense to limit it to, that still allows for ADCs to get off between as many as 2.5 and 5.0 attacks depending upon the set up, or in mid game, a more realistic 1.5 - 2 times.

If we set it at 2 seconds, or the length of a moderate CC, then the ADCs could conceivably be attacking from 3 times at the low end, to almost 10 times at the upper end with PtA abuse.

In all of these scenarios, literally any scenario with above 1 attack happening, that difference in critical strike chance really, truly matters, as it functions as a multiplier of crit damage, attack speed, and AD, worth exponentially more the more of the other stats you have. You're effectively ignoring a fifth of their entire damage potential by not factoring in the difference between 80% and 100% critical strike chance.

This is probably what the previous poster meant when they were saying you don't know what you're talking about, and don't understand the maths involved. I thought it was a tad harsh at first, but. . .

Sad TyrantMay 7, 20181 votes

20% higher

T4underboltMay 7, 20183 votes

i dont know what math did you see but the guy doing it was delusional. You are going to do more dmg to targets with over 57,5 armor already. Not mentioning it will be more consistent and reliable dmg since you get 100% crit at 3 items instead of 4. not mentioning giving adcs 100% crit at 3 items opens up for more versitile builds that include lifesteal. Nowadays not many adcs were going for pure lifesteal items since they have so much sustain from fleet footwork and their supports. The current sustain sources stay and they can freely buy BT every game because they hit 100% crit at 3 fking items. So instead of choosing between sustain or glass cannon crit dps, they get both. Very fking healthy.

SalronMay 7, 201814 votes

True damage at the cost of 50% increased crits

Death by GlamourMay 7, 20186 votes

or at the cost of reaching 100% crit chance

the entire changes please not snippets

ModWulf HelhammerMay 7, 201814 votes

Says the guy only picking at small stuff that ADCs got as compensation, and calling them "sizable buffs"

T4underboltMay 7, 20181 votes

[deleted]

TerozuMay 7, 20185 votes

Wow you actually went to ranked calling to try and sound cool instead of admitting fault.

Feed or FamineMay 7, 20184 votes

When you lose an argument so you resort to insulting the other person instead. Nice one

Z3SleeperMay 7, 201811 votes

Oh no snippets? Then did you forget the item alone gives 0% crit chance and requires a zeal (which now costs 100g more) to reach the same level of crit chance as it gave before?

The entire change please not snippets.

ModWulf HelhammerMay 6, 201813 votes

Yes, like:

less AD from last whisper items, while they cost more
IE is entirely useles as a first item
reduced armor and health regen in exchange for at most 17 HP at level 1 (with many getting less)
nerfs to the only good keystone option for ADCs (few ADCs have the ability to take PTA as they can’t reliably use it early to mid game, and LT takes too long to activate to be of any use), meaning they can get killed by the Brand, Bard, Alistar, and even Janna supports all the easier.

So many buffs!

Death by GlamourMay 6, 20186 votes

% of total armour instead

you will gain 10% more crit from a zeal item IE from the change + added true damage

lifesteal still unchanged as a stat and its items have a reduced cost

look at all the changes together rather than cherry picking

yes ADCs will be considerably weaker until the get 2 items and then they explode

PhDs NutsMay 7, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Death by Glamour,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Asqn6m47,comment-id=000100010000,timestamp=2018-05-06T23:59:48.847+0000)

lifesteal still unchanged as a stat and its items have a reduced cost

"Still?" ADCs don't even build lifesteal.

LilxPaprikaMay 7, 20186 votes

go figure a scaling item useless as first item. also if you read the explanations they gave it was exactly this that they aimed to do. to push ADC powerspike further into the game to give other roles a fighting chance against them.

D357R0Y3RMay 7, 20189 votes

he knows that

all he's doing is explaining to the other dude why adcs are being nerfed and not buffed

ModWulf HelhammerMay 7, 201814 votes

So making an item that used to be a first pick up not be that doesn't count as a nerf?

Daddy AntsMay 7, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name= Król Wilk Sam,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Asqn6m47,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2018-05-06T23:35:19.386+0000)

Yes, like:

less AD from last whisper items, while they cost more

IE is entirely useles as a first item

reduced armor and health regen in exchange for at most 17 HP at level 1 (with many getting less)

nerfs to the only good keystone option for ADCs (few ADCs have the ability to take PTA as they can’t reliably use it early to mid game, and LT takes too long to activate to be of any use), meaning they can get killed by the Brand, Bard, Alistar, and even Janna supports all the easier.

So many buffs!

ADC's are getting between 6 and 15 HP at level 1.

KZ EngelMay 7, 20187 votes

ADCs are not the problem. supports break adc

saltranMay 7, 20185 votes

Supps "break" botlane since they are real champs now, it used to be that having a botlane ahead was having a feed adc and a feed ward dispenser, now you have 2 feed real characters.

I'm pointing the situation, I dunno how to fix it without absolutly nuke either adcs or supps.

Burning BridgesMay 7, 20184 votes

The reason supports "seem" broken now is damage creep. One lockdown bubble from the nami and the other guy is dead.

One blitz hook and you have officially been sent back to the fountain.

One morgana bind and you might aswell pull up the shop.

Power creep.

Sad TyrantMay 7, 20187 votes

Ok, +10 damage +20% Crit (total) 1150 worth of extra stats, then -700 = 450 total buff

35% bonus to 35% Total, massive buff, loss of GS + 200 gold Massive Nerf

it is a buff, but only in the late game

its a nerf in the mid.

PB4UAMEMay 7, 20182 votes

Ok, +10 damage +20% Crit (total) 1150 worth of extra stats, then -700 = 450 total buff

I've pointed this out time and time again, but no one can seem to do maths.

Let alone the penetration bullshit. BC + LDR = 50.6% of your total armor gone. Totally not a buff, especially when the jungler/top laner will be the one with the BC so ADCs only need 3 crit items for 100% crit, then a LW to shred tanks to the point where no defensive build has a hope of competing.

Sad TyrantMay 8, 20181 votes

you are neglecting that it takes time to apply the BC stacks

DuskDaUmbreonMay 7, 20181 votes

You're assuming that the 20% conversion is equivalent to the +50% crit damage, however, and I'm not completely sure that's the case.

It's not a huge amount of change, but it's probably going to be another 50 or so gold less of stats. Probably more, given the penetration the class already buys.

Sad TyrantMay 8, 20181 votes

5 attacks, maybe a bit gambler fallacy

assuming no last whisper or similar and 100 total armour

4 attacks crit in the current system, 1100%, 550%

5 attacks crit in the new one, 1000%, 100% + 450 = 550%

so with the Last whisper changes, its a buff, however we can all agree that the power curve will be later than currently

Snowman ArcMay 7, 20186 votes

It's the boards. Why does it seem weird to you?

FurriesAreHotMay 7, 20184 votes

Cherrypicking is strong with the great divide of the boards. Im going to compare the boards to politics in the sense that: The 2 die hard opinions are the sides, and the 2 sides fight. The only real people suffering are the people who are in the middle and want to hear opinions/have discussions.

MorganFreemanBotMay 7, 20183 votes

ADCs had their power spike delayed by one item, and had their item costs up. So it's going to take.. about an extra 3k (give or take) before they become monsters. Riot successfully delayed their power curve.

Riot failed in all other regards. They're going to murder squishies even harder now, and absolutely rip everything to shreds with even more impunity once they hit those 3 items.

KanzlerMay 7, 201810 votes

You mean champions that build full damage and only come online at 3 items do a lot of damage to other champions that dont build defenses? What kind of blasphemy is this?!

Burning BridgesMay 7, 20185 votes

ADCS are suppose to be sustained damage. They burst squishys and these changes are not going to change that.

KanzlerMay 7, 20181 votes

And those changes are going to reduce burst in favor of sustained damage. Just because adc are sustained damage, it does not mean a mage with 2k health and no defenses will live as long as a juggernaut or tank.

You seem to not understand what burst means.

Just because you say the changes won't affect adc burst, doesnt make it true. Crit damage is being reduced. That alone proves you wrong.

PB4UAMEMay 7, 20183 votes

If you decrease the burst of one auto attack, but added more than the difference to the damage of the next auto attack, you can have a higher burst within a two auto attack period (generally less than 1 second of real-time) despite a lower hit per crit. IE passively doubling crit chance does just that.

Instead of 20-50-80% crit, it will be 0-60%-120%, so they have 10% more crit at 2 items, and 20% more crit at 3, for a slight loss in overall damage multiplier. However, when you look at the effect of an attack on average from a sufficiently large set of attacks, it will actually increase the average damage against targets with more than 100 armor (less than tanks/juggernauts base armor for reference, or any squishy with as little as 20 extra armor. You get ninja tabi, or a GA, and you'll take more damage after their ADC has 3 items than you would before the changes, no matter what champion you're playing. Even a fucking Ashe or Cait. )

Z3SleeperMay 7, 20183 votes

I seriously don't understand it. Boards is in a divide right now between people who think the changes are buffs and people who think they are nerfs/power shifts.

DisembarkMay 7, 201810 votes

People who think they are buffs are delusional.