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Rylai used to be a niche item

Ahristocats··62 votes·4,852 views

For bruisers like rumble/Vladimir/Elise For champions that didn't have cc like mordekaiser For Mages that needed to survive against Warwick JarvanIV Malphite and other bruisers For supports/mages that wanted to bring more utility/kiting power if their spells Zyra

it was not built on Annie Viktor Syndra Xerath Karthus Azir Azir never built it the champion spotlight, watch every lcs games of 2015 he never built it, he also needed cooldown reduction but that's an other story. Karthus needed tons of AP and mana to convert it into AP with arch. staff, rylai passive also sucked as hell with his kit until riot changed it. syndra/xerath/annie/viktor, all of those champs already had utility but have now even more utility while now they don't even need to build damage anymore since they can one-shoting easy targets thanks to the free 100 AP (Syndra Annie )

Riot olafed every other mage items, luden echo has a shit cost efficiency, no way to not build rylai now

V4.13:

Ability power increased to 100 from 80. Health reduced to 400 from 500.

revert this shit immediatly, return rylai to what it was: a bruiser item.

142 Comments

Durfain29 votes

Rylai is one of the only remaining high AP items, all of the others were gutted in the mage update. If you want to do this, you need to increase AP on a couple of other AP items or you're just flat out nerfing mages.

Sona x Rubick4 votes

Maybe, which would result in:

reverting what riot did to ap items, they just screwed them by nerfing luden's echo ap from 120 to 100 and nerfing rabadon's cost.

oh and zhonya, but zhonya is fine like it is right now and isn't supposed to give a lot of ap.

TotalJerk19 votes

Morellonomicon now gives 100 AP and almost fucking everyone builds it since Grail became a support item. It's almost appealing on manaless champions.

lofi n chillhop2 votes

oh, I forgot that people only build one item in this game.

chipndip112 votes

item 3285 : 100 ap

item 3165 : 100 ap

item 3089 : 120 ap

item 3027 : eventually 100 ap

item 3040 : 80 + minimum gained from passive = like a bit over 110 ap

Then there's Rylai's. They could probably use another 100 ap item that's just "generally applicable" if they nerf Rylai's, but there's a few 100 ap options.

Enloct3 votes

item 3285 Not cost effective. Need spammy spells that consistently apply to use it well, or consistent poke item 3165 The other item everyone uses. item 3089 Crap unless built late item 3027 Good but not everyone can use it. Need mana, and the right kind of spells. item 3003 Spammers only.

So if you're a spammy bruiser mage you can use other stuff. Otherwise your options are basically Rylais and Morellos. Now that I'm looking at it Riot for some reason gave you a bunch of rewards for spamming spells, which is kind of dumb. Casting spells really should be its own reward.

So yes, these items exist, but they suck unless you have a lot of synergy with them. The other options are just inferior, and anything that gives substantial offense, defense, and utility in one item is likely to be strong.

Sire Hippington2 votes

you underestimate archangel, it easily reaches 140+ at late, the issue is just that it sets you behind alot early on.

WacingTheFind16 votes

The solution is simple really, give it the item 3022 treatment, less dmg, more health. Champions like MordekaiserVladimirAurelionSol will still use it, because they need the slow from rylais due to their lack of CC/ need of stickiness.

However, in order to compensate more burst centric mages that are using rylais for the 100 AP, and would lose dmg, a new high AP item could be created, because they would be left with 3 choices: item 3089item 3285item 3003 (AA is situational, rabaddon requires AP from other sources to be efficient, and luden's was nerfed a lot)

BobaFlautist9 votes

{quoted}

The solution is simple really, give it the item 3022 treatment, less dmg, more health. Champions like MordekaiserVladimirAurelionSol will still use it, because they need the slow from rylais due to their lack of CC/ need of stickiness.

However, in order to compensate more burst centric mages that are using rylais for the 100 AP, and would lose dmg, a new high AP item could be created....luden's was nerfed a lot)

Or instead of making a brand-new item they could make Luden's not garbage.

Malicious Metal12 votes

I never had a problem with mages getting a Rylais IF the situation called for it.

But in its current iterations the raw stats THEMSELVES are high enough to make it a staple rush item.

Why rush a Ludens when you can get more durability and cc with the same amount of AP?

Trimming some of the excess AP would do the trick.

Mandang05 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AmRHZRO6,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2016-09-11T11:27:53.910+0000)

But in its current iterations the raw stats THEMSELVES are high enough to make it a staple rush item.

Uhh, no way.

The stat value on Rylai's is trash compared to any other completed AP item. If overstatted AP sticks were the goal, everyone would be building RoA right now (or even the GLP).

Sona x Rubick5 votes

103% cost efficient without passive, no way

Mandang05 votes

{quoted}

The stat value on Rylai's is trash compared to any other completed AP item.

Italics added because you failed to read it the first time.

Ahristocats5 votes

item 3089 92% cost efficient item 3285 80% cost efficient item 3157 92% cost efficient item 3001 96%

only items higher are morellonomicon 112% (being always built by mages) and fully stacked roa

you can thank him to teach you the game.

Mandang06 votes

Oh cmon, are you really this naive, or just playing stupid?

item 3089 Go show me a game where someone finished DCap with no other AP from anywhere. item 3001 You're ignoring the gold value of an actual stat: the MR reduction. item 3157 Congrats you picked one of the strongest actives in the entire game!

item 3285 ...and the item no one buys. Yea, definitely a good comparison.

(Also ignoring the fact that the way the wikia arrives at the gold value for movespeed is completely idiotic)

You should "thank someone to teach" you english, then we'll talk about whether someone actually knows anything about the game (clearly not the case for anyone who thinks a stat buff that happened in mid-season 4, after which Rylai's was still never bought, is why Rylai's is popular now).

Ahristocats2 votes

"you forgot the mr reduction" "you forgot the active" "you forgot rabadon's passive"

yeah, it seems fair to not take in account rylai's passive, but to take in account the passive of abyssal giving MR reduction, the active of zhonya, and the passive of rabadon giving AP

what's the cost of a passive giving you permanent slows?

by the way me being able to speak english like this, can you speak a bit of russian so i can see?

Mandang05 votes

The number you quoted for Deathcap included its freakin passive. Also, you actually SEE that AP on your stat sheet. Let's not pretend we can't evaluate that passive as the equivalent of the stat it provides.

The MR reduction on Abyssal is valued literally the line below the gold efficiency you quoted me. Cmon man.

Beyond all of that, the post I'm replying to is arguing that the stats alone make Rylai's worth rushing, which is dishonest to argue considering the stat efficiency of alternative items you could rush. (This is also why I'm not trying to assign a gold value to Rylai's slow). Obviously Rylai's is good right now, but arguing that it's because of the stat efficiency really isn't supported.

Once you admit that you have to account for the value of the passive, now all your terrible examples fly out the window. Everything also becomes very subjective - how much gold is Zhonya's active worth, how much gold is slow worth? This is why I have no problem bringing up the passives of Rabadon's and Abyssal - it's easy to attach a gold value to them.

D357R0Y3R1 votes

So deathcap cost efficiency is even lower?

seems worse to me

Mandang03 votes

It's missing the point either way, so knock yourself out.

The post I replied to is arguing that the stat strength of Rylai's is too high given its utility. It just so happens that the utility on that item and the stats on other items are both listed as passives. It's not really significant that it's the case - after all how are you going to compare gold efficiency of Rylai's to that of a well-defined item like DCap?

The reason I brought it up in the first place is that arguing "but 100% gold efficiency!" is naive as the entire point of completed items is that they grant >100% gold efficiency.

D357R0Y3R3 votes

you were talking about the stats of the items, and now you're bringing the actives/passives of the other mage items?

Mandang06 votes

You're blind if you're arguing that the AP you actually get from Deathcap doesn't exist simply because it's listed as a passive. Likewise if you pretend you can't place a value on Abyssal's penetration.

"But consistency" - Those are actual stats. They have gold values you can assign to them because you can buy them on other items. They show up on your character sheet. I'm not going to put a gold value on Rylai's or Zhonya's passive/active because there's no basis for doing so.

Also, considering the context of the post I was replying to "the stat efficiency alone is worth rushing", I'd argue my treatment of the items is most accurate - you're evaluating the strength of the stats you have upon finishing Rylai's without considering the utility... I'd hardly call DCap or Abyssal's passives "utility".

bony whimsark3 votes

RoA takes 10 minutes to be effective :P Luden's gives approximately 100 extra damage every 2 spells. That's like 10 extra AP on the item. :P Buying archangels makes you useless in lane. :P Zhonya's and abyssal are pretty good second items, but not on everybody.

ZephyrDrake9 votes

Karthus has always loved item 3116 since it means that the enemy is longer in his defile and that he has an easier time landing Qs, it might have not have been the best item on him but it was still a pretty decent item and Viktor always enjoyed it due to it allowing him to hit the second part of his laser and increase the overall DPS of his ult (people won't be able to escape it as easily)

Sona x Rubick5 votes

https://youtu.be/ROjdsHeT0dM?t=303

that's what used to be karthus 6 items.

ZephyrDrake4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sona x Rubick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AmRHZRO6,comment-id=00140000,timestamp=2016-09-11T14:25:16.816+0000)

https://youtu.be/ROjdsHeT0dM?t=303

that's what used to be karthus 6 items.

i don't care what pros built on him. I never said that it was the best item but that it was a decent item on him. Please learn to read. You could build Karthus in many ways before, I saw plenty of Karthus building item 3116 doing really well before. It's a build that you made when you wanted to bring more utility to the table with extra added tankiness at the cost of some damage

Sona x Rubick6 votes

who told you that i was talking about pros? 99% of the karthus players never built rylai until riot destroyed mage's items.

ZephyrDrake4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sona x Rubick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AmRHZRO6,comment-id=0014000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-11T14:47:59.286+0000)

who told you that i was talking about pros? 99% of the karthus players never built rylai until riot destroyed mage's items.

please show me your proof then, i want to see where 99% of the players never build it on him. 99% of statistics are pulled out of the ass you know?

Sire Hippington8 votes

The main issue wasn't the stats change, though itz certainly contributed. THe main issue was when they changed the slow. Before, aoe would slow by 15%, now it slows by 40%, so the slow value is nearly 3 times as high as it was for aoe, and most mage have only aoe in their kit.

I hardly doubt that 20 less ap would preven most mages from abuseing rylais. 30-40, maybe...but i'd massiely prefer reduceing the slow, or adding a new slow mechanic that prevents (near)permaslow scenarios all together.

Best princess EU1 votes

if you revert the aoe slow to 15% i think rylai will just be like before only built on bruisers if you still want it to bring utility you should just nerf the AP and let the slow like it is, making mages losing damage if they want utility

and yeah, nerf the AP to 60 just like abyssal scepter, and increase the HP. This will start to fixe damage creep

Malicious Metal7 votes

a mere 15% slow would make Mordekaiser's win rate plummet to about 42% seeing that his entire rework tuned him so that he relies 100% on that 40% rylais slow.

30% would be acceptable but 15? Boy, it was hard enough getting Morde into the solid state he's in now, I don't want to see this all go to waste :P

WoonStruck4 votes

Mord needs work himself. Don't make him crutch on Rylai's like Vlad did with WotA.

You don't want that future for yourself.

Burnt Iron King4 votes

So you want to doom a champion to the trash can for years until he gets reworked?

Earl Eulrich2 votes

you know...if the champ relies 100% on the utility of one item maybe his rework didn´t really do great and they should give it a better try.

Malicious Metal4 votes

He's been using it even pre-rework.

Let's be honest here, making a melee champion with zero mobility or cc work is a fool's errand. He's going to need a proper rework that makes him less reliant on Rylais to succeed (though I really like the slows, especially on a thematic standpoint as I compare him often to the King of the Wild Hunt or Arthas)

And even newer champs are reliant on Rylais, just look at Sol who's balanced with rylais in mind.

Earl Eulrich2 votes

ah well, i still remember just rushing gunblade in S2 and then going either straight tank or very ap-heavy...though you certainly could build rylais aswell. Though i guess in S2 there had been a lot more immobile champions on the rift, so the playfield had been more even. right now he really should get a baseline slow on his e or a much stronger ms-mechanic on his w to help him out a tad without forcing him on a specific item.

also, i really don´t think sol is anywere near balanced with a rylais...just touching you once with his w and then never letting you go till you´re dead as an immobile champ really isn´t good design at all - it just also feeds to the mobility creep (and ofc it also bares the old question why on earth a perma-slow would be broken on an immobile champion like skarner but is apparently totally fine on any ranged champ you can think of -.-).

Mirkhail4 votes

Syndra ,Annie ,Xerath only build it as last item if champion.gg is correct, i'm not sure about Viktor but Azir and Karthus (he don't build item 3003 staff anymore) will stop buying item 3116 only if the slow is severely nerfed or the item gutted.

D357R0Y3R19 votes

item 3165 into item 3116 into item 3001 is the best combo for any burst mage except Lux where you build rabadon immediatly after morello since nothing is better,

even saw Veigar building rylai

everything else is flat out shit and i doubt riot will fixe this, won't even nerf morello

Mirkhail1 votes

so why the most popular and successful build aren't building as you suggest at least since last patch? item 3116 is surely too strong and usually good for every mage but burst mage usually buy other item first. Veigar don't even build rylai if champion.gg is right but it would probably be a good choice since he could use both the health and the slow,

Malicious Metal29 votes

Who needs a slow when you just kill everything by just looking at it funny. They're slowed 100% when dead

Ralanr7 votes

"DEATH IS BEST CC!"

bony whimsark4 votes

For Syndra and Xerath They usually build it after item 3165 if they are behind or even for added utility.

item 3285 is nice if you are ahead, but item 3116 is way more usefull if you are not in a position to one shot people.

Champion.gg is also correct, if the game goes on long enough, people will sell item 3285 for item 3116 .

Keìron2 votes

just remove the item

Malicious Metal9 votes

And completely gut about 10 champs while severely impacting a ton of mages?

Sure

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

so for 3200 gold you suggest 20 less ap and 100 less hp? or a reduction in cost as well ?

Ahristocats11 votes

it's 20 less ap, and 100 more hp

and if it ends up weak, then they can revert the "fixe" that they gave to it

V5.22:

Total cost increased to 3200 Gold from 3000 Gold.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo2 votes

[{quoted}](name=playfive Koopska,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AmRHZRO6,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-09-11T09:07:46.022+0000)

it's 20 less ap, and 100 more hp

and if it ends up weak, then they can revert the "fixe" that they gave to it

V5.22:

Total cost increased to 3200 Gold from 3000 Gold.

Health reduced to 400 from 500

is what you stated in OP that is why i asked. so for 3000 g 80 ap 500 hp and same passive?

Ahristocats4 votes

i was listing a patch, and how riot should revert this patch

Sohleks4 votes

I doubt -20 ap would even change anything. Would have to buff some other items at the same time.

DrCyanide2 votes

Bingo. Before, Rylai's was 80 AP when everything else was 120 AP. The gap between 100 AP and 80 AP is small enough it might not matter.

GayFluffyUnicorn2 votes

Well lower the price a bit and give it 60ap only. So champs actually have to decide: do i need stickiness? Or CC for follow up dmg? Yes? Rylais. Do i need lots of AP to burst someone down? Yes? Go for ludens, rabadons, morello. Just imagine frozen mallet with 400 HP and 80 AD. Why wouldn't ADs build it? And can u imagine how toxic ADCs would be?

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