What happened to the "anti-snowball philosophy" ?

Ahristocats·Sep 6, 2016·58 votes·8,069 views

Since the game was released riot fought snowball wanting the game to not be decided quickly

what the fuck is this "first blood turret" change then?

91 Comments

RiotGhostcrawlerSep 6, 201660 votes

"Snowball" isn't a dirty word. Consider how the game would feel if Riot aggressively stomped out snowballing systems -- getting ahead early on wouldn't really affect the outcome of the game. In essence, everything you did before 15 minutes or even longer wouldn't matter.

The most memorable League games have a lot of back and forth with a dramatic and satisfying ending. But if every game felt like that, things would probably feel too random overall. Instead, there should also be games where one team gains a substantial advantage early on, either because they played well, or the other team made dumb mistakes, or a combination of the two. In those games, the team who was behind should have a chance of coming from behind, but not a massive chance, and certainly not a guaranteed chance.

Or consider another situation where one team has dominated the game since the beginning, but just can't close it out. Every time they get close to breaking into the enemy base, the defenders get an Ace, and then the dominant team has to come again and again to try to end a game whose outcome was probably decided long ago.

In other words, some snowball is desirable. It just can't be so extreme that the game is decided in the first 15 minutes every game, or that the team that falls behind has almost no chance of coming back.

In that world, we think the first tower gold bonus does some good things to the game. It does help to solve the lane swapping strategy for pro games, but it can also encourage some high risk / high reward play at lower elos too, which can be exciting. It creates a high point early in the game even if no champions have died. Yes, it shifts things slightly in the direction of snowballing being stronger, but not excessively so, and there are knobs we can turn if we thing that ever does get to be the case.

XonraSep 6, 201633 votes

The main issue right now is, everything you do early matter way too much. It isn't unless you have a really hard scaling comp or the game goes really late and you can stall, that you won't get snowballed on with all the early mechanics like turret first blood.

RaxistaichoSep 6, 201631 votes

{quoted}

"Snowball" isn't a dirty word. Consider how the game would feel if Riot aggressively stomped out snowballing systems -- getting ahead early on wouldn't really affect the outcome of the game. In essence, everything you did before 15 minutes or even longer wouldn't matter.

There's a huge difference between snowballing and just building up a slow advantage. I don't appreciate that you're turning this issue into a false dichotomy right out the door.

Or consider another situation where one team has dominated the game since the beginning, but just can't close it out. Every time they get close to breaking into the enemy base, the defenders get an Ace, and then the dominant team has to come again and again to try to end a game whose outcome was probably decided long ago.

If they "dominated" the early game they should be able to finish. If they can't close the game out and lose, they deserved to lose even more than a team that was even until they lost that one crucial team fight in the late game.

In that world, we think the first tower gold bonus does some good things to the game. It does help to solve the lane swapping strategy for pro games, but it can also encourage some high risk / high reward play at lower elos too, which can be exciting.

No it doesn't, it just makes bot lane (which is usually where the first tower will go down thanks to the changes to those specific turrets) very snowbally, not helped by the fact that adcs use gold better than most champions.

And as usual, I love how soloQ is being shaken by the lcs.

SintamaSep 6, 201621 votes

In other words, some snowball is desirable. It just can't be so extreme that the game is decided in the first 15 minutes every game, or that the team that falls behind has almost no chance of coming back.

This is the exact state of the game. Most games are decided in the first 15 minutes, and the team that falls behind never has a chance of coming back.

DunkinNoobsSep 7, 20166 votes

{quoted}

This is the exact state of the game. Most games are decided in the first 15 minutes, and the team that falls behind never has a chance of coming back.

Oh man, I wish I won every game where my team was up at 15 minutes. I'd be challenger already if that was the case.

HigeSep 6, 20166 votes

I think the proposed topic is more in line with: why at the 40 minute mark Vayne KogMaw Yasuo and some others are simply unbearable with a not so heavy skill curve? at that point in a game barely anything you do matters, if these champions had a good early game, you can very much surrender because their late will be abysmal, and if they had a bad early game all their team needs to do is turtle it out (which doesn't happen much in gold and below lol but still).

hyperscaling champs are a bit out of hand, don't you think?

Jeddy017Sep 6, 20164 votes

GC while you're here, may I ask you a question?What do you think about recent opinions on the Boards that the amount of damage in the game is too high?

People are saying things like, "There's too much free damage!", or "traditional squishy melee damage dealers have to build tanky or else they get blow up by safe ranged champs!" or "Riot needs to cut the amount of damage in the game across the board!" & other shit like that. I have yet to hear a Rioter opinion on the subject. Is this a valid concern, are people focusing on the wrong thing (or is this just normal bitching? I don't know, to me damage is damage, so it's hard to notice.

SaiannaSep 6, 20164 votes

Snowball is needed.

BUT

It cannot escalate beyond hopeless after 10th~~ minute of the game. Or where 1 Dragon means defeat. We need snowball. But we need slope to be more even and balanced and spread trough longer period of time.

Or consider another situation where one team has dominated the game since the beginning, but just can't close it out.

I'd rather disagree about it being "truly" snowbally. It's more like lategame team finally caught up with early-mid game team. And if they cannot close it, it means they are too weak. Why should snowball help them, if it's not theirs victory?

Earl EulrichSep 6, 20166 votes

just that right now most games get either deceided by very very early mistakes you can´t come back from or very late throws that happen due to bullshit vision later on in the game. Neither of those two is desirable in any way. and turret first blood really doesn´t help at all.

AMYS GRAVESep 7, 20164 votes

An early turret kill is its own reward, map pressure is an amazing thing if you understand how to take advantage of it. There is no need for you to get an additional 800 gold and have your minions auto push harder than the enemy minions. The advantage of a kill could only be that the enemy were removed from the map and it would still be meaningful. If you do nothing with that time then there is no reason that you should get extra gold for it. If getting early towers/kills doesn't feel meaningful then you aren't doing anything with it. If you aren't doing anything meaningfull with it you deserve to lose and you deserve to feel like it was meaningless, because you didn't do anything with that advantage.

RozzetaSep 7, 20166 votes

you heard him, guys, Snowball is not a bad thing. Akali nerfs will be reverted next patch.

General LeviSep 7, 20162 votes

That's a problem with that champ in particular, not the game itself

Sona x RubickSep 7, 20162 votes

this totally. this logic doesn't make sens GC should think again.

The Yetii RiderSep 7, 20163 votes

I'm just a little annoyed that it kind of devalues first dragon.

The dragon changes were made to make dragons an alternative objective that you could prioritize over towers, and one of the main benefits of getting an early dragon is to start the snowball that pays off in the late game.

Now, not only do dragons not give gold, but you're punished for prioritizing a dragon because if the enemy team trades a tower for it, they get a huge power spike.

Troll for TrumpSep 7, 20162 votes

"Snowball" isn't a dirty word.

Nunu Not yet..

CasterGilgameshSep 7, 20164 votes

those are good points but early game....its just so tedious.....one first blood and it feels like its over and not every champion has a decent late game.....

RebonackSep 7, 201611 votes

{quoted}

"Snowball" isn't a dirty word. Consider how the game would feel if Riot aggressively stomped out snowballing systems -- getting ahead early on wouldn't really affect the outcome of the game. In essence, everything you did before 15 minutes or even longer wouldn't matter.

You mean like how Dominion worked? Where the only way to win was consistently out-playing the enemy team for the whole game? Where awesome comebacks were always possible and the game was defined by action, strong decision making, and mechanic skill rather than who farmed the most minions or who scored first blood and first tower?

Man.

Sure is a shame you guys deleted the only PvP map where you can pick your champion.

AMYS GRAVESep 7, 20163 votes

Well put.

Jeddy017Sep 7, 20164 votes

Man, I had some good Dominion games. Too bad "League of Legends" is really just "Summoner's Rift & it's bitches".

Earl EulrichSep 7, 20164 votes

don´t remind me...Dominion still is the best concept for a truly competitve Moba they ever had - i just hope now that Riot drowned there biggest tressure some other company will take a good look at it and copy it to the highest degree possible so i can throw my money at them instead.

RebonackSep 7, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Eulrich,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AlKF8UEs,comment-id=0008000d0002,timestamp=2016-09-07T09:55:00.396+0000)

don´t remind me...Dominion still is the best concept for a truly competitve Moba they ever had - i just hope now that Riot drowned there biggest tressure some other company will take a good look at it and copy it to the highest degree possible so i can throw my money at them instead.

I'm still baffled by the fact that people constantly bitch about the inherent design flaws and toxicity of Rift, but they were unwilling to just play the map that actually addressed those design flaws. The only thing that I can think of is that people enjoyed Rift's awfulness when it was tilted in their favor more than they hated it when tilted against them.

What Is SmiteSep 7, 20167 votes

So Long story short Meddler and Morello have two different Philosophies when it comes to the state of the game and those philosophies are reflected on by the balance team

Xela SyabSep 7, 20161 votes

I really feel like you guys should ARAM SR a little, with more starting gold, levels, and xp gain so the game just goes quicker to those moments that make the game fun, not the miserable 30 minute minion grind and ward sweeping and random objective control. No matter what you guys do to snowball the game, it's still a 30 minute plus drag that tilts losing teams and makes winning teams feel cheated out of strategic gameplay.

RebonackSep 7, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Xela Syab,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AlKF8UEs,comment-id=0008000f,timestamp=2016-09-07T05:52:22.897+0000)

I really feel like you guys should ARAM SR a little, with more starting gold, levels, and xp gain so the game just goes quicker to those moments that make the game fun, not the miserable 30 minute minion grind and ward sweeping and random objective control. No matter what you guys do to snowball the game, it's still a 30 minute plus drag that tilts losing teams and makes winning teams feel cheated out of strategic gameplay.

I'm more or less on board with this idea.

If Rift had an XP ticker like, say, Dominion had (though maybe not to the same degree) then pure roaming positions starting with Spellthief (or maybe even some new AD version of it) would be MUCH more attractive. We might finally see compositions other than 1/1/2/J.

Angry MonsterSep 7, 20163 votes

I find it sad that Riot implemented the same solution; that 2 years ago was considered to draconian by Merello and was take out.

There is something to saying we need new DEVs but you guys (NEW DEVS) just seem to be relearning/doing the same mistakes the old DEVs did. Or at least what i consider mistakes. I felt more inline with pre-seaon 3 philosophy than anything since then.

KilljoyXSep 7, 20162 votes

{quoted}

"Snowball" isn't a dirty word. Consider how the game would feel if Riot aggressively stomped out snowballing systems -- getting ahead early on wouldn't really affect the outcome of the game. In essence, everything you did before 15 minutes or even longer wouldn't matter.

The most memorable League games have a lot of back and forth with a dramatic and satisfying ending. But if every game felt like that, things would probably feel too random overall. Instead, there should also be games where one team gains a substantial advantage early on, either because they played well, or the other team made dumb mistakes, or a combination of the two. In those games, the team who was behind should have a chance of coming from behind, but not a massive chance, and certainly not a guaranteed chance.

Or consider another situation where one team has dominated the game since the beginning, but just can't close it out. Every time they get close to breaking into the enemy base, the defenders get an Ace, and then the dominant team has to come again and again to try to end a game whose outcome was probably decided long ago.

In other words, some snowball is desirable. It just can't be so extreme that the game is decided in the first 15 minutes every game, or that the team that falls behind has almost no chance of coming back.

In that world, we think the first tower gold bonus does some good things to the game. It does help to solve the lane swapping strategy for pro games, but it can also encourage some high risk / high reward play at lower elos too, which can be exciting. It creates a high point early in the game even if no champions have died. Yes, it shifts things slightly in the direction of snowballing being stronger, but not excessively so, and there are knobs we can turn if we thing that ever does get to be the case.

If you think this honestly then you'd make tower first blood be consumed by first kill blood and visa versa. There doesn't need to be multiple forms of first blood it just promotes someone like the top or ADC being up 1K+ by 10-12 minutes especially in solo que. Having one or the other is fine. If you kill your lane you shouldn't recieve 1050 gold. The 400 for the kill and the 250 for the tower should be fine. If they get shoved out you get 650 too. It's a more fair and stable lead system which doesn't overly reward taking ignite and cheesing the lane like the current system does.

D3m37r1Sep 6, 201649 votes

LCS was getting boring with all the laneswaps.

RebonackSep 6, 201652 votes

{quoted}

LCS was getting boring with all the laneswaps.

LCS is boring regardless of what they do. Watching games of Rift is a snoozefest.

MunchCrunchLunchSep 6, 201623 votes

{quoted}

LCS is boring regardless of what they do. Watching games of Rift is a snoozefest.

its so much fun. seeing one solo 1v1 kill. every 10 matches. all i see are teams going 1v3. and winning fights. what to be excited about?. ganks. teleport here and there. there is almost never a mechanical outplay. all there is is outnumbering the enemy with ganks and skirmishes until your ahead and you just roflstomp them with fights they wont win because they are so far behind their adc feels tankier than your own tank.

warding every part of the map. there is 0 surprise. its just the jungler and other lanes roaming to each other. moving parts. to get gold. nothing more.

i simply start watching champion select. if i don't see any new pick. niche champion. i immediately quit. which is about 19/20 matches the case is so.

and wait to see who gives away a stupid fb or a turret. its pretty much 95% of the time that team is winning the game

last year worlds. i think on averafe the first blood winrate was like 80% or something crazy. most teams had 75%+ winrate and some had upto 100%. many at 80s and 90s.

too predicately. i never see comebacks in a game. (not a series) in an lcs game. there were a cpl in EU lcs. but i dont watch that. and also i dont think i saw any in an lck game.

Violet RavenSep 6, 20164 votes

{quoted}

^

its so much fun. seeing one solo 1v1 kill. every 10 matches. all i see are teams going 1v3. and winning fights. what to be excited about?. ganks. teleport here and there. there is almost never a mechanical outplay. all there is is outnumbering the enemy with ganks and skirmishes until your ahead and you just roflstomp them with fights they wont win because they are so far behind their adc feels tankier than your own tank.

warding every part of the map. there is 0 surprise. its just the jungler and other lanes roaming to each other. moving parts. to get gold. nothing more.

One solo 1v1 kill every 10 matches, you clearly have not been watching at all

MunchCrunchLunchSep 6, 20168 votes

{quoted}

One solo 1v1 kill every 10 matches, you clearly have not been watching at all

i dont count the early minion aggro aa cheese at early levels a 1v1. its just something that coulda went either way. no mechanical outplay. the last time. i saw a mechanical outplay. was last season na lcs when a lee sin flashed to the side of a corki rocket that woulda killed him and killed the corki instead. a flash. something anyone can do. you don't see anything crazy you see on youtube. pros play too safe. they take 0 risk. 0

LudovicoSep 6, 20165 votes

To be fair, Impact solo´ed Huni quite a lot. And Huni himself had many 1 v 1 wins during the regular season.

But I still agree, most players play too defensive and don´t show of their mechanical skill.

Earl EulrichSep 6, 20163 votes

what mostly makes it boring at times is the lack in diversity...be it in championpools (related to balancing issues) or strategy (due to a big downgrade in the visiongame this season that would be dirly needed to do anything besides grouping and teamfighting).

to fix laneswaps the changes to turret-durability would have been suficent.

KeevalroySep 6, 201631 votes

They go back on philosophies, promises, and logic all the time when the pro scene is "stale" or "boring." Why do you think flashy playmakers got buffed right before Worlds? To make it more exciting to watch - the rest of us don't matter. It's part of the reason I still want Riot to clear out everyone in the corrupt balance department and sub in people who actually give a damn about the state of the game.

Pandemic PunchSep 6, 201610 votes

The earth it flat bro. Riot has been lying to us all along. Don't forget that pigs can fly and that the sun is cold.

ChaosThiefSep 6, 20163 votes

http://www.cwideprods.co.uk/MooreBrabazon_with_Flying_Pig.jpg

YCitizenSnipsYSep 7, 20161 votes

What "flashy playmakers" got buffed for worlds?

KeevalroySep 7, 20163 votes

This Worlds?

Vayne, Riven, Lee Sin, Ezreal, Jinx, Malphite, Thresh, and I'm honestly surprised Zed wasn't on the list.

YCitizenSnipsYSep 7, 20161 votes

Ok, over half that list isn't going to be played at worlds anyway outside of an off meta or troll pick. Top laners will keep picking the nerfed Gnar, Shen, and Ekko over Malphite or Riven. Jinx isn't going to be picked because of buff to her ult. Thresh isn't going to see play over Tham, Braum, and Alistar. Ezreal and Vayne will probably see play just because of how stacked the ADC position is at worlds.

KeevalroySep 7, 20164 votes

Yeah and remember last Worlds when tanks were nerfed at the same time Lee, LB, and Zed were buffed with the balance team's hope that someone will pick them? That backfired as well, but doesn't change the story.

"These picks are boring, let's nerf them and buff playmakers for more exciting games."

MarshbouySep 6, 20168 votes

The turret first blood mechanic was to make sure that LCS lane swapping stopped happening

ZT XperimentorSep 6, 20162 votes

Which was another mistake, no surprise there either.

NGNL AsianSep 7, 20163 votes

{quoted}

The turret first blood mechanic was to make sure that LCS lane swapping stopped happening

Lane swapping was fun

Sire HippingtonSep 7, 20162 votes

Just that the fortification changes were already enough for that. With those changes alone, initiateing a laneswap means you need about twice as long to take that first tower as your opponent, which in the proffesional laneswap meta is a massive difference.

The tower-FB is mostly a snowball funktion that pushes it from 'laneswaps put you at a disadvantage and should be used only in exeptional cases' to 'do never ever even think about laneswaping. Just Don't!'

XonraSep 6, 20167 votes

They gave in and want flashy plays + Quicker games. They don't want 45+ minute games when it is a best of 3, so when you have snowball, the game ends faster.

No way I will believe otherwise because of all the changes they made ever since they announced the best of 3 format.

Athenes LuluSep 6, 20164 votes

On an outside-the-competitive scene, first blood turrets are as snowbally as first blood kills.

Also, this rewards poke lanes that haven't been effective since season 3 especially botlane.

AMYS GRAVESep 7, 20161 votes

Not true, turret first blood is 400 gold above what a normal turret kill is worth (100 global + 250 local vs 225 global + 525 local), while champion first blood is only 100 gold above what a normal champion kill is worth (400 vs 300). Bounties not included of course.