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Dopa on bot lane: "Bruisers at bot aren't even great"

D357R0Y3R··23 votes·10,802 views

https://youtu.be/HCxnzUons7c?t=36

"it's just bot that changed a little bit, and bruisers at bot aren't even great. There are more situations where Lucian or Kai'Sa are better than bot lane bruisers. It's definitly not 'better' than marksmen, but turned 'decent enough' to pick whatever you want at bot. You can just play adcs bot like you used to if you want. When noobs pick weird champions for bot, they get smashed even harder than before."

"Top mid and jungle did not change that much. It's just that the champions picked for mid have changed to pick champions that synergyse well with bot lane comp. Tbh it has become much better now that adcs are weaker. It used to be 'better bot wins games' now it's fairly even between the two halfs of the map, i think it's better this way. It used to be 'lose bot lose game' and that was annoying. The importance of each role has evened out more and it's better this way."

"it's not that adc is 'bad', adc used to be 'too good', they were too good so they got nerfed. They have not become 'bad'. They have become as good as the other champions, they have become balanced. That's why we're seeing different champions at bot. To be honnest, in lower tier you will get much higher by just playing like you used to Bot Irelia, bot Yasuo, playing things like that will lose you the game for sure. There are literally no one that plays them correctly in lower tier, they have no basic knowledge about the champion, if you want to play something like that play Mordekaiser. Why would you play Yasuo or Irelia if you have no basic knowledge about them? It's only good if someone that understands well the champion plays them."

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

48 Comments

MetalGearTeemo7 votes

Laughs in Yi and Taric Bot.

D357R0Y3R7 votes

Mid yi and taric are played mid

Elohaven7 votes

I've noticed you've been posting a lot but if I guessed what was your statement from this thread, I'd say you're interpreting the issue wrong.

ADC players don't mind the diversity in botlane. It's fun facing new matchups. The issue is when some of the champions you like, EG Tristana, can't be relevant in the game anymore due to much stronger early to mid carry potential you can't contest in mid/top due to snowballing. EG - you're doing fine in lane but top just went 0/7 and the 2-item power spike for top is stronger than yours. The amount of damage/burst right now gained from items is insane and is a struggle for ADCs to keep up against.

Defensive itemization isn't an issue to get - but there's simply not enough time to build the damage and defenses needed.

TL;DR - It's not the lanes but the game state.

D357R0Y3R6 votes

out of all adcs tristana cait are the only unplayable ones and soon kog/varus if rageblade finally gets a relevant nerf Kalista and corki are getting buffed in next patch

also i do know about the game state, hence why i left the game now because i'm done playing against a support who can remove more than half of my life with a combo+ignite+runes

but we need riot to realise that first

Elohaven5 votes

You're being too stubbornly biased though. You said only Trist/Cait are unplayable but:

  • Xayah
  • Varus (His winrate is 45%)
  • Sivir
  • Kalista has always been garbage
  • Kog has been shit since they nerfed him
  • Twitch isn't even picked as an ADC anymore with a 0.81% pickrate
  • Jinx as her mid-game isn't her strong suit anymore (since ADCs are late-game oriented and she was nerfed for the late but buffed mid)
  • Corki has always been trash botlane for a while just like Kalista

So TL;DR - No, you're wrong. There are many unplayable ADCs. Only ones played are Jhin/Draven/MF/Kai'Sa(who's dropping)/Lucian/Ezreal because items were either buffed just for them or they deal enough burst/damage which Riot's current snowballing gamestate supports too well. They're also good abusers of Conqueror while other ADCs can't use it well and Fleet was gutted.

I disagree that you know about the game state or the main point on the boards. You know part of it - but definitely not botlane's. Nobody enjoys being useless for an entire game, unable to hit their impact point.

(And marksmen are sporting pickrates much less than any other roles on average in their respective lanes)

D357R0Y3R1 votes

{quoted}

You're being too stubbornly biased though. You said only Trist/Cait are unplayable but:

  • Xayah

and doublelift goes 10/0 on her in lcs, sounds terrible

  • Varus (His winrate is 45%)

still broken af with guinsoo, always had a low win rate (and it's not 45% btw) because low elo can't make use of immobile adcs

  • Sivir

49% win rate

  • Kalista has always been garbage

ok?

  • Kog has been shit since they nerfed him

see varus

  • Twitch isn't even picked as an ADC anymore with a 0.81% pickrate

agreed for twitch

  • Jinx as her mid-game isn't her strong suit anymore (since ADCs are late-game oriented and she was nerfed for the late but buffed mid)

49% win rate

  • Corki has always been trash botlane for a while just like Kalista

nobody cares about corki bot tlane, he's a midlaner

saltran1 votes

Calling Varus brouken af OMEGALUL, horrible winrate on all elos but often picked on pro play for his ap build = brouken it seems.

D357R0Y3R1 votes

{quoted}

often picked on pro play

yep you said it often picked by the best players in the game that can make use of an immobile kit

also idgaf about what they build lol, we aren't talking about builds but rather if a champion in a class is viable and even if he builds ap with guinsoo+nashor he plays like a marksmen

saltran2 votes

So every immobile champ that is played on pro play (not even pick/ban) is brouken af by definition?

Lets see: Ashe Brand Draven Darius Chogath Gangplank Janna Karthus KogMaw Lulu Mordekaiser Morgana Ryze Taric Soraka Varus Velkoz (correct me if I'm wrong on any)

Edit: Forgot about Dongers Heimerdinger , who still has 100% winrate on EU LCS xD.

D357R0Y3R1 votes

{quoted}

So every immobile champ that is played on pro play (not even pick/ban) is brouken af by definition?

I main Ashe and I know that she's really strong, I said that Ashe is strong with bork no one believed me Draven is insanely broken rofl, in this meta wwhere sustain doesn't exist Draven is going to be the king Kog is still broken along with varus due to guinsoo

Morde has 54% win rate and 10% pick rate, are you asking an obvious question?

the other picks i don't know because my knowledge only concern adcs as an adc main

Elohaven1 votes

I main Ashe and I know that she's really strong

op.gg says otherwise

D357R0Y3R1 votes

lol ok must explain why Upset Uzi deft ruler play her trully stats of worthless people have more value than the choices of the best players in the game

https://i.gyazo.com/9dddafe2604a3e847b68b0cee8d8442a.png

51% win rate

unviable LUL

Elohaven2 votes

Can't compare LCS to SoloQ - why don't you get that?

They're completely different environments. Example:

  • Kalista GOD-TIER in LCS
  • Trash in SoloQ

Thus she got gutted.

Sivir's 49% winrate with a 1% pickrate. Clearly shows that even when picked in her niche you're most likely to lose.

D357R0Y3R1 votes

Kalista is part of the club that has champions balanced around lcs Ashe kog or varus are not those champions are not stronger in lcs than in regular

kog and varus are broken with guinsoo, so is kai sa xayah is not stronger in lcs, those kind of champions have NOTHING to do with teamplay except ashe but as an ashe main she has a lot of individual strength right now with bork+black cleaver

the only champions that sucks right now are: kalista because of riot, cait/trist because of crit, and twitch who always sucked anyway except if you played in low elo and snowballed with his stealth

compared to this the amount of marksmen that can work: Ashe Draven Ezreal Jhin Jinx Kaisa KogMaw Lucian MissFortune Quinn Varus Vayne (with bork btw ) Sivir

oh boy clearly the marskmen class is in trouble it's not like best players in the world like dopa deft doublelift imaqtpie said that they're fine it's not like uzi keeps playing marksmen it's not like i've not heard rekkless complaining recently

saltran1 votes

it's not like i've not heard rekkless complaining recently

Well he's played Janna and Karma so far in this split.

I's not like best players in the world like dopa deft doublelift imaqtpie said that they're fine

Dude QTPIE is a fking Diamond 1 that hasn't played at the LCS in years, I aswell read what DLift said and what he said was that adc players had to adapt to the new champs, I haven't read anything that Deft said about this meta (Do you have a source btw? I'm a KT fan and I love Deft), and I don't watch LPL but I trust you about Uzi only playing adcs.

And I still want you to explain me why are Kog'Maw and Varus brouken with Guinsoo.

D357R0Y3R1 votes

{quoted}

Dude QTPIE is a fking Diamond 1 that hasn't played at the LCS in years

that's funny, he's diamond 1 AFTER SPAMING FUCKING BRUISER BOT LANE and lost over 600 lp just because he tried to make bruisers working

I haven't read anything that Deft said about this meta

he said on stream that this meta is awesome while playing lethal tempo Ashe unfortunatly unlike dopa deft does not translate his stream nor does he post it and he's been playing Ashe/Varus/Morde a lot during lck recently if you follow lck

I don't watch LPL but I trust you about Uzi only playing adcs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhAnJkMi9tI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o40qB9a1UaQ

And I still want you to explain me why are Kog'Maw and Varus brouken with Guinsoo.

because guinsoo is fucking stupid, this 3300 gold item gives a 2 items lvl of powerspike, is much stronger than bork powerspike on lucian/ashe it's so overloadead, gives so much stats and double on hit effects (also shit like lulu+ardent) you expect varus and kog to be balanced with it? they're only balanced in low elo where clown fiestas are regular and immobile adcs are weaker there

Elohaven2 votes

xayah is not stronger in lcs, those kind of champions have NOTHING to do with teamplay

TFW OP tells you a champion picked in LCS doesn't have anything to do with teamplay.

No teamplay --> In LCS

D357R0Y3R1 votes

yea i'm telling you that some champions are more dependant on teamplay like kalista than xayah or draven who are purely damage champions kalista cannot revolve on only her damage to success, but her coordination with vision, Rend acting like a smite on epic monsters and her ult engage/disengage

but after that you told me ashe is unviable with 51% win rate i'm done arguing with someone trying to teach me how my mains are right now

Elohaven2 votes

Xayah has an AoE root with invulnerability, multi-target damage, and great DPS. Yes, she's a damage machine but her kit offers great teamfighting potential with its AoE damage.

You said you're done with my argument when I said op.gg indicates you have never played Ashe on this account. Apparently, she's your main - so shouldn't it be easy for you to refute this.

You also disagreed on me stating that LCS can't be compared to SoloQ yet you say my arguments are horrid.

BTW, I stated Ashe was unviable before op.gg updated her pickrate to 3% - which indicates only her mains are doing well with her and a select few which isn't a bad thing.

GayFluffyUnicorn3 votes

Sounds like a balanced game state.

Elohaven7 votes

Most of the Boards complaining about getting 1 shot and marksmen have no home to be viable in. 2 classes are unviable in the game right now with damage through the rough and you say

Balanced game state

??

[sg-lux-2]

Leetri8 votes

According to the boards, as long as bruisers and mages are the best classes in the game it's balanced. Doesn't matter if everything else is unviable, it's balanced.

BestPudgeNA5 votes

{quoted}

you're doing fine in lane but top just went 0/7 and the 2-item power spike for top is stronger than yours.

The irony.

OtterlyLost2 votes

{quoted}

I've noticed you've been posting a lot but if I guessed what was your statement from this thread, I'd say you're interpreting the issue wrong.

ADC players don't mind the diversity in botlane. It's fun facing new matchups. The issue is when some of the champions you like, EG Tristana, can't be relevant in the game anymore due to much stronger early to mid carry potential you can't contest in mid/top due to snowballing. EG - you're doing fine in lane but top just went 0/7 and the 2-item power spike for top is stronger than yours. The amount of damage/burst right now gained from items is insane and is a struggle for ADCs to keep up against.

Defensive itemization isn't an issue to get - but there's simply not enough time to build the damage and defenses needed.

TL;DR - It's not the lanes but the game state.

This is literally what every ADC main has been saying since 8.11 hit the live server but literally no one will listen. I had this exact thing happen just today. Left laning phase 5/1 as Tristana after dumping on Mordekaiser/Taric bot lane. Now ask me if I won the game. If you said no, you'd be correct. :/

https://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2808909106/228066420?tab=overview This is the game. I wasn't even doing badly; I just couldn't do anything against Katarina who scales faster and harder than I do with less items. She just rolled my team and even if I didn't die, there wasn't anything I could at that point. She solo carried this game and its extremely frustrating and disheartening as someone who clearly played their lane better than their opponents did. Like, why is it fair or justified for me or my team to lose the game when four out of five of us have good or decent KDA's and decent farm? I even had a better KDA and farm than this Katarina but it didn't matter.

SpecterVonBaren3 votes

Other ADC player comments seem to indicate that they do in fact dislike facing new matchups.

Arcane Blue Boi6 votes

Laughts in zilean veigar

Veigar uses cage and zilean throws 2 bombs in

Its All Skillzz1 votes

{quoted}

Laughts in zilean veigar

Veigar uses cage and zilean throws 2 bombs in

i actually had to play vayne vs this and it was fucking aids.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

Laughts in zilean veigar

Veigar uses cage and zilean throws 2 bombs in

that sounds actually fun. i remember the old zilean/yorick comp. yorick summons a ghoul, zilean puts a bomb on it. watch the bombed ghoul chase down the enemy adc and laugh.

xxxDogmanxxx5 votes

It was pretty obvious that melee champions in general would still be worse at laning phase than ranged champions. If you're melee and they're ranged, they can likely hit you more often than you can hit them. The only melee champs that would likely work at bot lane against ranged marksmen are those with ranged harass or a lot of dashes.

TheMinionLeader3 votes

Also the advice that if you're bronze stay off of yasuo is pretty obvious as well.

koshkyra4 votes

Everytime i see a bruiser bot, they lose, idk why everyone is picking them.

The only time ive seen a bruiser bot win was when my support was nunu w/smite and went 0/6 by the 10 minute mark.

D357R0Y3R4 votes

because just like dopa said you need knowledge to play this kind of shit except morde because morde is braindead

koshkyra2 votes

Oh, morde was actually the adc who won. It was a morde/shen botlane and my support was trolling lol.

ModCaptainMårvelous3 votes

Yep, Apdo is on point.

ADCs aren't trash tier save for a handful (and crit hotfixes too) but right now, you have some variety and can do some cool things. Plus ADCs can naturally come back depending on game length. If games go back to Season 4's snoozefest of 70+ minute games, for example, crit/scaling ADCs naturally become better picks. The sweet spot Riot should aim for (IMO) is to have the possibility of a late game comp but allow/offer a hardcore early game comp where you can try to bully ADCs early so they can't hit the late game.

There's a lot of good that can come from this but we'll have to see where it goes.

Thefrostyviking2 votes

I think he kinda skips out on the fact that the "changes" kinda missed several targets(kai'sa,ezreal etc) and actually went through as buffs for others like Lucian.

So.....some keeping the same power as before and others getting buffed up.....naturally those picks easily contest melee for botlane, they are still hella strong, especially so to the people who were already playing them.

Mediocre lucian beats medicore Irelia, because melee is more punishing to make mistakes on.

What i take issue with is the exact fact that several picks went through without any nerfs as it really makes no sense to nerf the t2 crit marksmen when almost all the current t1 are non crit users.

Sure crit needed changes and i think thats good too, but why in the world let the so called alternatives go through unchanged?

That only ensures that the crit users get pushed further down even harder and with little hope of coming up while the same old picks keep dominating <.<

Changing the meta? More like bringing in melee for the old top tier to bully along with the new top tier x)

DoktorKaiser2 votes

Weird everyone seems to have feeding bruisers, but what I have is everyone even trying to pick any ADC not named Kai'Sa (yes that includes Lucian) gets absolutely destroyed by Irelia and Pyke mostly, even Ziggs or Lux. I would say Morde is the best bot laner atm.

D357R0Y3R3 votes

{quoted}

(yes that includes Lucian)

53% win rate 30% pick rate

right

DoktorKaiser2 votes

{quoted}

53% win rate 30% pick rate

right

I said in my games, I really haven't seen that hard carrying Lucian, but Kai'Sa terrorizes everyone whether she is on my or the enemy team. I also almost never saw a carrying Ezreal but apparently he gets nerfs before Kai'Sa. I guess that everyone has different experiences.

Attticus Finch2 votes

Dopa's theories on the game are meaningless if the statistics don't support them.

An opinion of his that statistics do support is that non-marksmen aren't that good bot lane. Yasuo and Vlad are "okay", but there are zero marksmen or mages that can go bot and compete with on-hit marksmen. The "bot lane diversity" everyone raves about is basically "play Kaisa, Ezreal, Lucian MF or lose."

JoeMG2 votes

I like how he mentioned that ADCs aren't bad, they just used to be too good.

I've honestly felt that ADCs play exactly like they should now. They feel good IMO. Weak early but still scale well. Like he said it's most other things that are just overtuned. The fact that we don't have a late game is what is killing the ADC role.

Malix Farwin1 votes

I mean ive win every bot lane playing the mages i know bot. The problem with people playing bruisers bot is you look at their match history and see they have little to no exp with them and still decide to do it in ranked.

Phieldworker2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malix Farwin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AkoZ8Ur4,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-06-19T21:08:09.866+0000)

I mean ive win every bot lane playing the mages i know bot. The problem with people playing bruisers bot is you look at their match history and see they have little to no exp with them and still decide to do it in ranked.

It’s true. Or it’s solo laners that played top or mid and don’t know how to share a lane so they underestimate the anaount of damage that comes in.

Shuriman Curator1 votes

I've been seeing a lot of brand and bard bot, and holy shit is all I have to say lol

Ayame Isaki1 votes

Vlad/Raka was pretty awful to play against for me last night, even with MF rushing executioners.

Eye Of Terror1 votes

At least pro players are the only ones who can change the mind of the braindead sheep around here.

Poske1 votes

So I dont often agree with dopa/apdo and I have been challenger to not rank1 but rank 50 (His recent midlane tier list was quite off for example)

But he is absolutely right on this matter

Varus (That ap build), Kaisa, Lucian, Ezreal, Xayah (He exluded 3 tho) are all top tier Ashe likes this meta, sivir isnt bad with reaver, jhin is good to

Twitch is viable if you play him as a jungler who farms lanes on top of it

Xayah was just OP for 8 months as one of the strongest crit user who can somewhat adapt her build Ezreal with double tear is unefected Kaisa and Varus abuse similar AP builds (This 2 kinda mage mages pointles imo) Lucian liked the botrk and reaver changes

Honestly some ad carries became unplayable but 70% of a ADC roster is still good

Perhaps like 5-6 carries completly died (Vayne, Jinx, trist.)

Now As someone who has been playing Yasuo ADC for 2 years in ranked peeking challenger, Entire comunity sleeped on this. I have been really successfull with yasuo ADC in challenger for 2 years. And I am confident he worked as an ADC pick even prior to that but my Yasuo sucked and I never tried it... (Looking at 2% lifesteal from quints )

Granted I have also been Inted many times just for picking Yasuo ADC... or I was under high pressure because if you take yasuo ADC prior to this patch and die once your team loses faith in you and becomes extremly tilted

I tried irelia. And I can already say that even if I master irelia it ll never be as good as yasuo bot. She has to expose herself to poke way more then yasuo. Any time you Q to last hit you ll get chunked

Granted I knew as soon as she got reworked that she ll have some botlane potentional. But I dont think she ll ever be in a state where you can just firstpick irelia botlane, but since she can be played in all roles just like yasuo you are unlikely to get countered

Noor Sakata1 votes

" Laughs in Veiger and Ziggs bot " Veiger uses his cage and Ziggs will throw them to the stun for free kill

rtbf484192821 votes

Here's why marksman class will always be played (and naturally overpowers all melee team) no matter how much nerf they get. Playing a melee champ means in order to dmg the enemy champion, you'll be taking some dmg no matter what. Just think about that for a while and figure out what it means.

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