Smite now can have stacks (2) BUT the relevant cooldown for the stack is 75s (instead of 60s (and 45s Trailblazer) from patch 4.20).
Golems can stun you now
Gromp deals lower physical damage but poisons you for a huge amount
Krugs move faster
Crab gets more health
Because you know... Junglers weren't falling behind enough already.
One gotta put a cover on that coffin' amrite?
RiotRiot Reinboom28 votesReminder: You're referring to what's on PBE which are experimental.
Much of this, we're doing various thematic explorations of jungle strength (hence the behavior differences of Krug and Gromp). This is MOST DEFINITELY an experiment and even in this experiment it's important to note that smite removes these mechanics off the monster. Basically, smite "steals" their mechanic. Gameplay wise, we're looking at creative ways to push lane (level 1) poaching back off junglers at high levels of play.
For Scuttler... It's weaker. The actual change is: Base health increased by 50. Health per level decreased by 150. Health now scales with monster level multipliers. Scuttler now gives increased gold and experience.
Results: The Scuttler is easier to take at most levels (exception: Level 12 and 13 where Crab is SLIGHTLY tankier, but by trivial amounts). The Scuttler no longer has an XP penalty for taking it (because it levels with you) The Scuttler gives more XP and Gold.
vuduchikin5 votesI hate to derail, but can you please respond to one of the many Olaf threads that have been spammed for a year and a half?
My champion is desperate.
RiotRiot Reinboom15 votesI don't have a lot of insight into Olaf, sorry. :/
vscAloha5 votesWell hey, man, thank you for replying.
Bears Dont Care2 votesThe problem though is tht if you're trying to clear these camps and your smite isn't up, you're going to put yourself behind due to the amount of damage you're taking. Smite no longer becomes a choice between smiting a champion or smiting a jungle monster (challenging and chilling smite), but becomes a "my smite isn't off cooldown, if I try to clear this camp, I will die, or lose so much health I won't be able to gank."
The strategic diversity is stifled with the change.
disregardable1 votesThe Scuttler is easier to take at most levels
Does this mean I'll be able to kill it as a support that isn't Leona?
RiotRiot Reinboom8 votesProbably not. It's still in the same vicinity of an encounter before. This is about a 5% decrease in health on average.
Hellioning4 votesGameplay wise, we're looking at creative ways to push lane poaching back off junglers at high levels.
You're not going to be able to do that without some massive shifts in how certain classes scale with gold. Basically, until it isn't the case that you want to funnel all your gold into the ADC, and you somehow manage to get junglers to kill a camp faster and more efficiently than said ADC, they're gonna poach camps.
RiotRiot Reinboom22 votesLet me reword: Poaching at level 1.
Hellioning4 votes...Either I'm reading you wrong or that is the exact opposite of what you said...
Either way, that's a more likely goal. I'm mostly glad if you can get rid of that, because it's annoying as all hell to have to take double golems/frog as bot lane in order to keep up, so you're SOL if your jungler starts there.
RiotRiot Reinboom15 votesI need to work on post clarity then. :) I think the confusing portion in the first post is that I also said high level. The intent was "higher levels of play". Oh silly things all having the same words for different concepts.
Kowe The Ewok5 votesThanks for your response.
I main jungle and while I like the of Smite buffs the current jungle feels worse for various reasons:
1.) Worse mana sustain on items, but higher monster health (= increased number of spells to kill) -> significant mana issues on many junglers
2.) Long camp cooldowns with high experience per camp -> Solo lanes who get ahead pre lvl 4 (ab)use this advantage to take the enemy's jungle. This not only catapults them forward against their lane but also knock the jungler out of the game. Up to a point were ganking become suicide. Note: This experience is mostly limited to playing Platinum and Diamond MMR. Less common with Gold since solo laners tend not to ward the enemy jungle here.
3.) Sustain junglers are too far off the charts compared to others. -> Maybe these deserve to be toned down while the jungle difficulty gets slightly decreased at the same time.
Local Mocal2 votesYeah I thought they were trying to originally bring more diversity in the new jungle, but it would only seem any jungler who doesn't take any damage are top tier.
ImHerVoice13 voteslets be honest here. You guys hardly ever change anything between pbe and live you dont even use your test servers for testing. Just for publicity on the new content lol. Just look at cass. That sure as shit wasn't tested. No cass player wants it.
Kowe The Ewok11 votesOT: It (the Cass rework) was tesed for like 2 days. People hated it (still do) It was pushed to live.
(Her powerlevel got buffed, but her gameplay has become sickeningly dull. Q W and R are all worthless without E. Most unrewarding champion ever.)
AbodyHUN6662 votesI hate that I can't even level up my Q and E on Azir, unless I level my W. Riot is enforcing this champ's gameplay. Edit: now I have learnt that sarcastic tone doesn't get through in text.
HeadHonchkrow2 votesThe thing is, Q and E do not work without W
DeadXera6 votesThe thing is, Q and E do not work without W
I hate that urgot has to land his E to be able to Lock-on his Q, rito is enforcing this champ's gameplay. I hate that brand only gets a stun on Q if he hits with a different spell first, richacho is enfroshing der chomps germprey. Ermagerd, enfroshing germpreys.
Junkο6 votesIt's called a combo.
Spamming all your spells and dealing 0 dmg because all the power is in your E is not a combo.
RiotRiot Reinboom10 votesWe do use it for testing, though each developer uses PBE differently I believe. By far the biggest thing it grabs us is things like "crash tests" and that things like the release and deploy cycle function nicely. Of course, that's not really interesting on a per content piece basis.
For each piece of thing that goes out on the PBE, it very much depends on the type of content and what the window is. It's REALLY hard to change something near the end of PBE, but we do respond to many individual pieces with care.
For a lot of the Preseason stuff for example, we've been introducing it to PBE and then keeping it back for a patch or so just to make sure we get proper testing for it. Zz'rot Portal didn't get released in 4.21 precisely because it didn't have a large enough window on PBE (and rightfully so. I need to fix a lot of things on it!)
ImHerVoice13 voteswell I can tell you how to solve your issue with junglers. add spell vamp to machete/jungle items. Just like the spirit stone had... that 350 item I buy to get chilling smite... Put spellvamp on it Or buff the shit out of machete to actually make it worth 400 gold instead of just increasing its cost to 400 and giving it mediocre stats that aren't worth 400. If its going to cost the amount of a dorans item. it better give me damage and hp/sustain like one.... you're going to have to make it really good to make this new set up work. Or sustain junglers are just going to be the obvious stronger pick. Champions like yi/ww/trundle/fiddle are just so strong right now because they don't have to recall before getting to level 4 in the jungle lol while every other jungler has to basically or die to the camps.. And now I hear about you increasing damage on camps... WRONG answer.
Yes they have their own clear weaknesses but the weakness is covered up simply because other junglers are forced to recall which is roughly 40~ seconds of not even existing on the field BECAUSE of these s5 changes.
HeadHonchkrow1 votes
ImHerVoice3 votesshaco's first clear is relatively healthy I leave the jungle with clearing gromp-blue-red at level 3 with around 80% hp
Junkο4 votesShaco can clear at full health lol
kitcat3006 votesThe spell vamp is what kept tanks out in the first place apparently.
The spell vamp allowed assassins to do both without the risk.
Skia Asteri2 votesGameplay wise, we're looking at creative ways to push lane (level 1) poaching back off junglers at high levels.
Why not just not give XP for killing monsters to champions who do not have a machete?
RiotRiot Reinboom15 votesAt a certain point in the game, the jungle is SUPER important for teams falling behind. It's one of the major reasons why they level throughout the game. You gain increased experience (by... a lot) for killing things higher level than you. Removing XP entirely for all but the jungler removes a rather hefty fallback from the game.
Gramma2 votesWhy not just revert back to the delayed spawn timers so that bot lane needs to give up cs to take krugs/gromp like it used to be?
magic pole2 votesSome junglers prefer starting krugs or gromp now
BloodDelmar2 votesGameplay wise, we're looking at creative ways to push lane (level 1) poaching back off junglers at high levels of play.
Funny, because I remember staggered jungle spawn times to do precisely this.
Who comes up with these ideas, seriously? Untargetable champs with super high mobility and ridiculous burst, champs with unlimited dashes who can make TWO champs untargetable, walls to negate the opposing team...
You'd think with ALL the complaints, you guys would maybe do something about it...
AbodyHUN6663 votesStaggered spawn helped this, but now junglers start on small camps
BloodDelmar2 votesStaggered spawn helped this, but now junglers start on small camps
Yea, because it's instant level 2. Which makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Kill one frog thing, get level two. Kill 3 buff monsters, same xp.
AbodyHUN6662 votesThe level 2 and the smite buffs. I also think it opens up many new ways of counterjungling. I had a game where after taking krugs the enemy trundle showed up while I was taking my red, smited it and killed me.
BloodDelmar2 votes{quoted} The level 2 and the smite buffs. I also think it opens up many new ways of counterjungling. I had a game where after taking krugs the enemy trundle showed up while I was taking my red, smited it and killed me.
You mean opens up new ways of snowballing.
AbodyHUN6662 votesTeammates can still ward and help (and they should) and later on we were ready for Trundle and could kill him many times.
Silverthane2 voteshow did you come up with your name?
also is it possible to smite 2 camps and receive both bonuses? like say golems and red?
junglerboy163 votesCould you explain EXACTLY how the new smite works? because I have heard two different explanations, and since I don't have a PBE account I cannot test it out myself. I have heard that it either works where each charge has its own cool down, meaning you get two smites every 75 seconds (this would be great, since with skill and management, you could stagger your smite use and get roughly half cool down on smite), OR the other thing I have heard ( a lot more frequently, which is concerning) is that the cool downs run one after the other, an as a result, all this effectively does is give you one extra smite early and then nerf it for the whole rest of the game.
Of those two ideas, the first one seems SO cool and like it could open up possibilities for some serious strategy, like Power farming with it, using one charge to gank while the other recharges, counterjungling with poachers giving ultra low smite CD, etc. The second Idea (which I fear to be the one that is actually in game on the PBE based on the number of "Why U nerf Smite Rito?!?" threads) seems like it doesn't offer any of that strategy and is a straightforward NERF to every junglier who uses smite (All of them). Please enlighten me on this subject.
LankPants2 votesThe main problem that I have with these changes is the rift it opens between blue side and purple side. No Adc/support duo is going to care if they get stunned by a camp at lv 1, and even in a scenario where the stun is impact-full you have the possibility of the support tanking then just going B, setting their ADC ahead and barely setting them behind.
In comparison the Gromp camp will destroy two people, since its poison effect will apply to both as they AA it. This means that in tournament play purple side is forced to make a lane switch and guess which lane gets shafted by that (again). It also limits jungle paths and therefore limits junglers, as the only place you can really start is the Gromp, as your duo will be taking Krugs. While this would seem to favour tanks it's actually a huge disadvantage as any invading jungler can predict your pathing, thus feeding back into the Lee Sin/Kha'zix meta even more.
Overall if you want to reduce early poaching from lanes there are a few changes that I feel you could make
Leti the Yeti8 votesb-b-b-b-but ya get like 20 g more per camp doe with tier 2 smitem wow didnt see the jungle buff again
I love how riot intended to buff jungle so sustain junglers werent overshadowed by damage junglers with spirit stone but all they did was gut damage junglers
RIP kha, 9001 nerfs just so something else could be buffed to make u useless
Khristophoros6 votesYou start out with two charges of smite so it's actually easier.
Currently you get your 3rd smite at 120 seconds after starting the jungle. Then you get your 4th smite at 180 seconds.
With the charges, you will get your 3rd smite at 75 seconds and the 4th one at 150. Massive buff to the first clear.
It takes so long for the new smite to fall behind on cooldown that you'll already have enough items to comfortably clear without smite.
ModWulf Helhammer1 votesrecharge timer starts at 1:40 in the game
Khristophoros2 votesrecharge timer starts at 1:40 in the game
Welp, that seems like a nerf then. First two smites are the same and the rest are more delayed. But it might not matter actually.
The Worst KogMaw2 votesIt's not as much as a nerf as you may think. While backing/ganking ect you're still recharging stacks, so you can end up back in the jungle with 2 full.
It also allows junglers that pick up the PvP items to always have a smite up while still being able to use them in the jungle. There's a 15 second CD between uses, so they covered the abuse case with those items as well (and enemy team can still try to dragon if they saw you use smite).
(source: played around with it on PBE. Was kinda nice tbh, especially if I had to leave the jungle for any period of time.)
JadeKnightblazer3 votesI like these neat little changes and hope to see a PBE player play through it :D Finally feels like the Jungle is a well... Jungle and not some shopping center. Make it dangerous, keep laners out of it if not prepared (jungle items and smite), and if the Jungler feels like upping their game challenge the enemy junglers camp.
BRING IT ON!!!
Kowe The Ewok1 votesYou are aware that jungler already earn less than support sin an average game since the jungle changes?
JadeKnightblazer4 votesYou are aware that jungler already earn less than support sin an average game since the jungle changes?
Yep, I even find myself buying the 
(depends on the length of the game and situtation if I upgrade to teir2 and 3) after my jungle item to help with passive gold gen, extra gold for ganking targets, extra damage on skill and AA's and lastly if built to tier 3 a Ranged Slow CC. :)
Gotta think outside the box and use the tools Riot has given to all players. It is preseason after all, Experiment!!!!!!!
Jungler in S5 should be treated more like a new Support / Utility / Pressure Role, not the mindless Gank S4 Style that so many are used to. Break the Mold.
Kowe The Ewok3 votesMindless gank?....
In my eyes it takes more to outplay a laner than an NPC...
JadeKnightblazer5 votesMindless gank?....
In my eyes it takes more to outplay a laner than an NPC...
There was no downside to ganking in S4. No real jungle management, choices to make (besides save smite for Baron and sometimes dragon) and most of all. No Penalty for failing ganks (Unless you died to the laner and feed them).
Now you have to worry about Gold and Exp (clears), and ganking is a larger Risk / Reward. "Finally" like it should be. New jungle makes it for more types of Champions to play different roles while Jungling. No more will only the "Assassin" or "Gank Friendly" champ be played game after game after game (Boring to watch).
Kowe The Ewok6 votesHow is watching somebody afk farm the jungle more interesting?
Btw. the amount of competitively viable junglers has decreased, not increased.
In my eyes the current jungle is horrible balance wise since it features no comeback potential. Denying a single camp to an enemy is a death senetence.
It migth be interesting in 5v5, but soloQ is broken atm (again: talking about Platin+ MMR where people ward the enemy jungle)
PrinceArchie5 votesThe jungle is dangerous now, but it's gone from a safe farm spot for junglers, to a moderate farm spot for junglers, to a farm spot for laners with this change. Laners can go into the enemy jungle if there is an early ward, predict that junglers path and secure a kill for themselves easy. Dont forget lane smiting isn't really "horrible" for some champs and while lanes wont need to use a smite to basically make it hell for the enemy jungler in his own jungler, they sure have the option to.
For ranked Teams and Pro play this would be "great", because it would really separate the great coordinated teams from the mediocre ones, but in solo queue it's gonna be anything but. Junglers in Solo queue are more or less abused, no one works with them honestly unless it's a premade duo and this jungle change would only benefit teams who are willing to help their jungler by shutting the other jungler down.
It's one heck of a tall task to put this much pressure into the jungle position while ALSO making a majority of them weak in their own jungle. These changes will make junglers look like secondary supports and mid laners look like psuedo-adc's. You will essentially have two duo lanes in game.