"ADCs are weak"

Niyumi·Jan 21, 2017·8 votes·1,316 views

EDIT: I was playing Kled, not Vayne.

-- (Nearly 5k health, 170 armor, and 320 AD)

vs.

Wanna guess how long I lived? 1.76 seconds (and if Kled didn't go invuln for a second when he's knocked off Skarl, you can cut that in half). I ult her, land my Q (I have true vision on her while it's attached, so she can't stealth), I smite her, I land all four of my W autos, use Titanic, get the second damage on my Q... and then die. Guess how much health she has? 100%.

But uh, you know, ADCs are fair and balanced, and are actually REALLY WEAK right now. Not like I did over 3,000 damage to her and she survived at 100% health because of fucking Warlord's (but remember! While spellvamp was INHERENTLY TOXIC, lifesteal is ENTIRELY HEALTHY! ADCs NEED to be drain tanks!).

Shows what I get for not playing Vi, Hec or Lee $in. Great balance though Rito! Appreciate all the effort and care you put into the game.

38 Comments

PermabannedGarenJan 21, 20178 votes

"I can't fight a six item Vayne, the best ADC duelist in the game, this proves that ADCs are OP."

What an idiot.

Oh, provide the replay. I don't have time to mathematically prove you are a liar again right now, but I can make you prove up or shut up.

Critmaster GarenJan 21, 20173 votes

{quoted} ADC duelist

why is this a thing though?

adc are supposed to have the tradeoff of being vulnerable to get caught out by burst or in melee or both at any stage of the game. its their largest mistake scenario. being out of position and losing their range advantage should be the biggest fuckup they can produce.

theyre supposed to rely on the support of their team to stay alive, because when they dont there is absolutely no way to deal with them when they actually get support on top of that.

you need shit like hecarim, vi, elise or lee sin to be able to even deal with them.

a 6 item nasus with 1000 stacks is going to kill you as fast as a vayne if he gets into melee, but is still kitable and has counterplay. you dont get into 175 range of him, all that damage potential doesnt matter.

there is still a way to actually deal with him. why is it ok for vayne to break the rules of her own class and at some point out stat check everyone else so hard, that her counterplay (getting caught out in an isolated position in melee) doesnt matter anymore?

thats not even all of it.

its always a thing that has bothered me about adc like vayne and kallista, when their duelling strenght is supposed to come from their mobility and their ability to kite, but they can just stat check their opponent without even making use of that strenght.

at that point its like. why are these champions even ranged if they dont even seem to need it?

it leads to a situation that at some point of the game when they have enough items you just automatically lose, since its impossible to deal with them in a teamfight scenario where they get additional protection. you cant 1v1 them, you cant 5v5 against them even if they screw up and get caught in melee. (assuming that they dont fuck up so hard that they get into a 3v1 scenario, which should never happen unless theyre complete morons and run into the enemy team)

RalanrJan 21, 20171 votes

Well remember that every champion breaks at least one rule of their respective class. Plus Vayne isn't really the only ADC duelist.

Lucian and Draven seemed to be designed as ADC duelists as well. Graves also.

Critmaster GarenJan 21, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Well remember that every champion breaks at least one rule of their respective class. Plus Vayne isn't really the only ADC duelist.

and seemed to be designed as ADC duelists as well. also.

id say lucian cant afford to just sit in place and not kite his opponent though. in the same scenario with the kled, he would have died if he just sat in place auto attacking.

i agree, that graves is just obscene and honestly terrible design. draven at least has a gameplay counter, since his dps at the same time comes with telegraphed movement. hes not going to be able to facetank you if he loses his axes, so you still have options to outplay him.

but vayne was always a champion who botherd me because of her teamfight carry potential and her 1v1 potential that scales so ridiculous that at some point she doesnt even have to kite anymore.

she is nothing but a ball of stats.

how do you outplay a champion whos ranged and her kit is comprised of nothing but a bunch of passive steroids? this concept only works for melee champions, if at all, because you can avoid getting into range and stat checked. so there is at least always 1 option left. with the increased threat range of her auto attacks, thats not possible with vayne.

RalanrJan 21, 20172 votes

So basically Vayne is ranged Tryndamere in terms of playstyles?

Critmaster GarenJan 21, 20172 votes

{quoted}

So basically is ranged in terms of playstyles?

in a way. theyre both balls of stats for entirely different reasons.

vayne doesnt suck in teamfights, and still has more tools on top of just her ridiculous raw damage.

Genocide VictimJan 21, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AeEE66ir,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2017-01-21T21:28:07.387+0000)

why is this a thing though?

adc are supposed to have the tradeoff of being vulnerable to get caught out by burst or in melee or both at any stage of the game. its their largest mistake scenario. losing their range advantage should be the biggest fuckup they can produce.

theyre supposed to rely on the support of their team to stay alive, because when they dont there is absolutely no way to deal with them when they actually get support on top of that.

a 6 item nasus with 1000 stacks is going to kill you as fast as a vayne if he gets into melee, but is still kitable and has counterplay. you dont get into 175 range of him, all that damage potential doesnt matter.

there is still a way to actually deal with him. why is it ok for vayne to break the rules of her own class and at some point out stat check everyone else so hard, that her counterplay (getting caught out in an isolated position in melee) doesnt matter anymore?

thats not even all of it.

its always a thing that has bothered me about adc like vayne and kallista, when their duelling strenght is supposed to come from their mobility and their ability to kite, but they can just stat check their opponent without even making use of that strenght.

at that point its like. why are these champions even ranged if they dont even seem to need it?

it leads to a situation that at some point of the game when they have enough items you just automatically lose, since its impossible to deal with them in a teamfight scenario where they get additional protection. you cant 1v1 them, you cant 5v5 against them even if they screw up and get caught in melee. (assuming that they dont fuck up so hard that they get into a 3v1 scenario, which should never happen unless theyre complete morons and run into the enemy team)

Because Riot has a hard-on for Vayne and won't admit that she's a mistake. Then again, Riot never admits mistakes.

PermabannedGarenJan 22, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AeEE66ir,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2017-01-21T21:28:07.387+0000)

why is this a thing though?

Because it is one of the only reasons Vayne's late game is as good as it is. She has one of if not the worst early game of any ADC generally speaking, and scales harder than all but one of them. The only ADC who scales at least as well as Vayne is Twitch. Twitch is actually possible to catch out and kill late game.

But he is a considerably more powerful threat in team fights than Vayne. Vayne can kill one person at a time. Twitch can disintegrate your entire team from eight hundred units away.

Vayne forces you to change up the strategy of "isolate the ADC and kill her" unless you are playing someone who can actually fuck with a Vayne late game, like Master Yi or perhaps Yasuo.

adc are supposed to have the tradeoff of being vulnerable to get caught out by burst or in melee or both at any stage of the game. its their largest mistake scenario. being out of position and losing their range advantage should be the biggest fuckup they can produce.

And Juggernauts are supposed to have the tradeoff of having trouble forcing people to fight them in their threat radius, but Darius doesn't give a shit about that.

Not every champion in a class is the same.

theyre supposed to rely on the support of their team to stay alive, because when they dont there is absolutely no way to deal with them when they actually get support on top of that.

Vayne is the most support-reliant ADC in the game... in the early and sort of the mid game.

you need shit like hecarim, vi, elise or lee sin to be able to even deal with them.

Or any burst mage. Or an assassin (don't believe the meme, assassins are not bad right now). Or you need team play, since the ADC has to use team play to deal with you.

Why do you see a team focused on protecting their ADC and think "Boy I should play a champion who can ignore the team play and handle this solo". You don't need a zero counterplay diver to do anything about this. You just need the right comp and competent enough team to capitalize on it. Don't have the right comp? You lost in champ select, it's the fault of your team and you deserve to lose. Your team isn't competent enough? Then your team is worse and deserves to lose.

a 6 item nasus with 1000 stacks is going to kill you as fast as a vayne if he gets into melee, but is still kitable and has counterplay. you dont get into 175 range of him, all that damage potential doesnt matter.

All right, I'm going to let you in on a little secret: Nasus is bad. He's really bad early game, peaks mid game, then falls off hard late game, because he is a binary stat-check champion who is incredibly toxic to deal with.

there is still a way to actually deal with him. why is it ok for vayne to break the rules of her own class and at some point out stat check everyone else so hard, that her counterplay (getting caught out in an isolated position in melee) doesnt matter anymore?

Because Vayne is not nearly as safe as Nasus is in lane.

That's it.

Nasus, despite his early weakness, is almost impossible to actually get a noticeable lead on or keep out of the game if he's competent. If you don't counterpick him with something like Darius, Nasus will rush tank items, stack up, and become impossible for you to deal with in lane. He will continue to stack and if you try to stop him he will kill you. It also takes Vayne much longer to get to this point.

Vayne is short-ranged for the lane she is in, and doesn't have in-built sustain in her kit. She takes warlord's to lessen this weakness, but lifesteal contingent on missing health is not as powerful as constant lifesteal on a champion whose Q gets beefier as he continues to farm, making him heal for more.

thats not even all of it.

its always a thing that has bothered me about adc like vayne and kallista, when their duelling strenght is supposed to come from their mobility and their ability to kite, but they can just stat check their opponent without even making use of that strenght.

Kalista is toxic because she has that dueling strength on top of crowd control on top of team fight strength on top of unparalleled objective control.

Vayne's niche is the late game duelist ADC. She kills single targets quickly and very well. That's it. She doesn't have range, she doesn't have poke, she doesn't have particularly good objective control, she doesn't have utility, she just kills one guy quickly then moves on to the next guy.

at that point its like. why are these champions even ranged if they dont even seem to need it?

Yeah I'm sure Vayne would be fine with a short-ranged dash, a three hit passive, a passive that makes her walk faster, a disengage (on a melee champion lol), and a steroid that just buffs her ability to fuck shit up in melee.

Be real. Vayne is ranged because she'd be shit if she wasn't. Six items late game she can stat check some champions, but none of those champions are as weak in the early stages of the game as Vayne is. Probably not a single one.

it leads to a situation that at some point of the game when they have enough items you just automatically lose, since its impossible to deal with them in a teamfight scenario where they get additional protection. you cant 1v1 them, you cant 5v5 against them even if they screw up and get caught in melee. (assuming that they dont fuck up so hard that they get into a 3v1 scenario, which should never happen unless theyre complete morons and run into the enemy team)

Yes, if you let a stronger late game comp get to late game you will lose if they don't throw the game. That is why they are stronger late game.

But imagine instead if, rather than having a team of shitty early game champions against the team with Vayne, you had Twitch ADC, Nautilus support, Orianna mid, Yasuo top, and Vi jungle. This is a team with enough late game badassery in its carries (Yasuo, Orianna, and Twitch) and enough ways to lock down Vayne that killing her is well within the realm of possibility.

But if your team is something like Garen top, Kha'Zix jungle, Ahri mid, Thresh support, and Lucian ADC, a team that doesn't scale particularly well individually or have much in the way of late game team fighting power? Yeah, both teams being six item you will lose if the Vayne team doesn't throw the game.

Much like how if you are countered in champion select, if you don't play better than your opponent you will lose.

This is fine, because the earlier game comp (theoretically, some champions like Lucian and Garen in particular are weak enough right now that the difference in early game isn't so hot) has the better chance of getting ahead in laning phase.

Hauling AsheJan 22, 20171 votes

I totally agree and this is why I refuse to play her. She is just a disgusting design. Caitlyn is one of the top ADCs right now and even she can't beat a Vayne with brains. Yeah, she'll bully her for 10 minutes but Vayne at 6 goes ham. Her invisibility gimmick needs to go.

paperbIadeJan 21, 20173 votes

I love how people say adcs are weak when adcs are hypercarry monsters with 6 items

NiyumiJan 21, 20171 votes

They were never weak. They've been broken for as long as I can remember -- and there's absolutely no reason for it, given that they're the easiest, most reliable class in the game.

paperbIadeJan 21, 20171 votes

{quoted}

They were never weak. They've been broken for as long as I can remember -- and there's absolutely no reason for it, given that they're the easiest, most reliable class in the game.

adc have been picked since season 1 rofl

NiyumiJan 21, 20172 votes

Mhm. And, since whales can't play anything that requires any kind of skill or thought, Riot rewards them for playing the easiest class in the game. But hey, it just shows how much they care outside of money!

Mecha MaIphiteJan 21, 20173 votes

it's almost like vayne's late game is way better than kled's

PermabannedGarenJan 21, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mecha MaIphite,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AeEE66ir,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2017-01-21T20:27:54.766+0000)

it's almost like vayne's late game is way better than kled's

Yeah, Sciela isn't very intelligent, so he doesn't make connections like this.

Genocide VictimJan 21, 20173 votes

Vayne is not an adc, she's an abomination.

Critmaster GarenJan 21, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Shows what I get for not playing Vi, Hec or Lee $in.

this is actually a pretty good point.

while those champions are clearly overtuned in the current meta focused around carry junglers, how would we really deal with adc without them?

RalanrJan 21, 20172 votes

Prayer. Honestly I don't think you can peel them off fast enough.

NiyumiJan 21, 20173 votes

You really can't deal with an ADC unless you either stunlock them into infinity or one shot them before they can fight back. But apparently that's healthy, balanced gameplay.

PennsJan 21, 20172 votes

Adcs arent weak at 6 items, they are weak while getting there. And Vayne is never weak past 2 items anyway lul.

dominusxJan 21, 20172 votes

nor any ad right now.

SasogwaJan 21, 20172 votes

Spellvamp wasn't toxic and it was never the argument why it was removed. Spellvamp was a noob trap stat that was terribly bad on most mages because of their bursty nature, unlike ADC's who have sustained DPS. But it was powerful on a very small pool of champions, Vladimir in particular, and was obnoxious on them. Seeing as it was not in the right spot for, well, actually anyone, they just outright removed it.

Sona PingJan 21, 20172 votes

{quoted}

-- (Nearly 5k health, 170 armor, and 320 AD)

vs.

--

Wanna guess how long I lived? 1.76 seconds (and if Kled didn't go invuln for a second when he's knocked off Skarl, you can cut that in half). I ult her, land my Q (I have true vision on her while it's attached, so she can't stealth), I smite her, I land all four of my W autos, use Titanic, get the second damage on my Q... and then die. Guess how much health she has? 100%.

But uh, you know, ADCs are fair and balanced, and are actually REALLY WEAK right now. Not like I did over 3,000 damage to her and she survived at 100% health because of fucking Warlord's (but remember! While spellvamp was INHERENTLY TOXIC, lifesteal is ENTIRELY HEALTHY! ADCs NEED to be drain tanks!).

Shows what I get for not playing Vi, Hec or Lee $in. Great balance though Rito! Appreciate all the effort and care you put into the game.

Scalings are a thing. Kits are a thing. Champions at 6 items are not equal because they are both at 6 items.

Champions have different levels of strength compared to each other whether they have 6 items, 1 item, 3 items, 0 items, and also their champion's level, what ability levels are, etc. etc. One can't compare fights with a Level 1, Level 2, Pantheon or Renekton etc. to some other random champ and act as if that says everything about the champion's state in the game and in the same way, one especially cannot do so in all-6-item-Level-18 game states that frequently do not even happen in matches, especially not when extending it to an entire class of champions, and especially not when it's made from one single fight in one single match of one single player.

MLDzXnRRRJan 21, 20171 votes

I like ADC Kled more... At least you are gonna take someone with you.

Very Hard EngageJan 21, 20171 votes

[deleted]

NiyumiJan 21, 20171 votes

I guess it wasn't clear, but I was playing Kled. Literally nothing I could do to stop Vayne from carrying, despite landing everything and her fucking up left and right.

2 Weezy BabyJan 21, 20171 votes

Have you tried not being garbage at adc?

NiyumiJan 21, 20173 votes

I was playing Kled, not Vayne. And this Vayne was fucking terrible. Just won because she had so much lifesteal and absurd damage.

2 Weezy BabyJan 21, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I was playing Kled, not Vayne. And this Vayne was fucking terrible. Just won because she had so much lifesteal and absurd damage.

See? That vayne was fucking terrible. Why so many people cry about ADC being weak when people suck at adc in general.

NiyumiJan 21, 20171 votes

She was terrible, yet still won. But apparently ADCs are weak.

AptestJan 21, 20174 votes

people do not understand. vayne does not "outplay" people. her play pattern is utterly straight forward and predictable. She out-stats them.

2 Weezy BabyJan 22, 20172 votes

{quoted}

people do not understand. vayne does not "outplay" people. her play pattern is utterly straight forward and predictable. She out-stats them.

Yeah.. straight forward and predictable... that's why she has massive movement speed and invisibility. Not to outplay... ???????????????????

AptestJan 22, 20171 votes

it's not "outplay" when it is known in advance im not gonna hit her with the skillshot because she will tumble when she sees the animation.

outplay is when you hit her with it.

Hauling AsheJan 21, 20171 votes

That's just Vayne. A six item Vayne. Vayne has always been able to do this.

This does not prove anything about ADCs being strong. This just proves Vayne's kit is inherently unhealthy.

NiyumiJan 21, 20172 votes

Alright, so why can Ashe 1v1 a full build Camille and LITERALLY STAND THERE and win?

Why can MF 100-0 a Rammus with 570 armor and 4k health in <2 seconds?

Why can Jhin 100-0 a Sion with >5k health and 200 armor in two rounds of autos?

Why can Sivir 100-0 a Sej in <2s?

Why are all ADCs capable of being more of a drain tank than Vlad literally ever was (and he was nerfed for it)?

Why are all ADCs able to out-burst an assassin who's trying to kill them?

ADCs are not weak, nor have they ever been. And Riot went and buffed them last season, and continues to buff them.

Main PodemosJan 22, 20171 votes

Lol, there are actually " ADC's OP NERF PLS" threads in 2017.

League really has the most retarded and conceited community ever.

GenghisEmoJan 22, 20171 votes

ADCs are not weak per se. However, Riot's great balancing made Junglers with some AoE and good clear speeds that can burst hard af with fraction of an item too strong all the while ADCs can barely phase them.

Things are getting better. Not 100 better, but still slightly improving slowly.

Thank God they nerfed the Level 3 gank while bot lane was still level 1. That is pretty much why the "ADCs in 2017 lul" meme started from.

Two, no one knows how to kite.

Three, The Vayne needs to kill you fast, you allowed her to scale or get items. Otherwise, Enemy Vayne is pretty much a free win of game for you.

Four, failed to end game before Vayne scaled. Vayne isn't like other ADCs, she can 2 or 3 shot your ass XD.

Did your ADC not choose Ziggs, Ez, Cait, Jhin, or something else that is actually meta? Did you guys allow her to safly farm in lane or split push? Obviously, Vayne scaled, and once scaled with 6 items, the bitch will destroy the world.