Why is Nocturne's base HP pool so low?

HateDaddy··52 votes·3,601 views

I get that he's technically an assassin but he relies so heavily on auto attacking, as two of his spells are CC (which scsles with AP) and a spell shield designed to block one spell (which helps but let's not pretend this suddenly makes up for all the different shit that gets thrown his way). Other than that, his Q and R are his only true AD offensive abilities. For a melee champion who has to constantly auto attack, it really doesn't make sense why he has such a low HP pool.

Honestly, there's no reason to ever pick Nocturne over Rengar. Rengar literally does everything Nocturne does but better aside from a global vision denial, which is powerful but doesn't make up for his lack of defensive power.

Can we talk about buffing Nocs base HP pool?

51 Comments

ChoGathsSon18 votes

Couldn't agree more. What a well thought out post from an incredibly talented high elo player.

HateDaddy4 votes

{quoted}

Couldn't agree more. What a well thought out post from an incredibly talented high elo player.

Wow thx friend

FalconPawwwwnch8 votes

No you didn't

HateDaddy3 votes

{quoted}

No you didn't

Yes I did

SlytherinUmbreon1 votes

Stop playing with yourself in public, bruh

Raja Chachki1 votes

......did u just....

Akesgeroth1 votes

Worthless post by a worthless human being.

idoki5 votes

He has lifesteal on his passive and also his spell shield, both basically help mitigate damage in someway (that logic applies to Aatrox but he's bad as well). But I do agree there's no point in picking Nocturne when you have Rengar. Maybe they should rework him into a fighter and less of an assassin.

HateDaddy5 votes

{quoted}

He has lifesteal on his passive and also his spell shield, both basically help mitigate damage in someway (that logic applies to Aatrox but he's bad as well). But I do agree there's no point in picking Nocturne when you have Rengar. Maybe they should rework him into a fighter and less of an assassin.

His Lifesteal passive is a joke lol

I'm fine with him being made into more of a fighter tbh, he functions very well as one. It just takes 5-6 items. That's all. Only 5 or 6.

Ixlin1 votes

{quoted}

His Lifesteal passive is a joke lol

I'm fine with him being made into more of a fighter tbh, he functions very well as one. It just takes 5-6 items. That's all. Only 5 or 6.

I wouldn't say joke, but I will agree it's the weakest part of his kit. It doesn't feel like it fits, with everything else.

hgjkdlsaf jeldvb2 votes

his passive is almost entirely to get him through the jungle. The heal is honestly terrible given its uptime. His spellshield is also on a long cd and is legitimately difficult to use properly.

AbsoluteSadman1 votes

You heal like, 18 hp per target late game? Its crap

hgjkdlsaf jeldvb5 votes

Riot couldn't decide if they wanted to make a bruiser, assassin, or melee carry.

His damage output is carry output. He's got steroids out the ass, which is cool.

His ult is an assassin ult. It gets him in and helps isolate his target. His base stats are pretty much the same as talon, and in the general ballpark of assassins. This is cool.

This however, has a problem. Assassins aren't sustained damage dealers. Noc is ultimately dependent on dealing sustain damage, and of melee carries, say, tryn, yi, and yasuo, noc has the worst combat mobility, the worst survivability, and the worst damage. Yes, his damage output is high, but compared to these other champs, it still sucks. Noc consistently dies to other melee damage sustain damage champs.

He has lower burst than pretty much every assassin out there, as well. He also lacks anything resembling an escape or combat mobility. About all he has is sticking power for things that don't have external peeling

Noc's teamfight is shit. I'm not even going to try to say it can be good. It can't. It's terrible. You have to build tank on a champ that begs to build damage through mid game if you want to survive. Most games where I get fed on nocturne, as soon as teamfights hit, we consistently lack initiation, since a squishy noc sure as hell can't. In fact, the only time noc is usable as an initiator is if there's an orianna ball sitting on him. Tank noc can initiate, but that's like mundo running in and his team following. That's really not that good. He can't peel. He can't stick in teamfights. He basically sits there getting kited, and if he built tanky enough to survive, his damage isn't threatening enough for it to matter unless he's ridiculously fed.

His cc IS FUCKING AWFUL. Really, buffing its damage? Why. That makes no sense. That's not what it's used for. Ever. Riot goes on and on about how the like keeping champ strengths and removing power that doesn't add anything meaningful is a cool way to nerf champs, but then when they buff noc, they add this shit instead of actually enabling him to use his strengths. How about increasing the leash range with level? How about decreasing the timer with level? I'm sick of every champ with a built in fucking dash just getting away for free. Noc can't touch champs with dashes. Seriously, his E may as well be a dead spell.

His jungle sustain is shit. I don't know why his passive is so gimped. It's honestly really lackluster.

The only thing I'm honestly sure about Riot's stance on nocturne is that they want him to be consistently overshadowed by everyone who does more than he does by also letting them do those things better. Look at pantheon. Why doesn't he do better than noc? Long range engage? It's AoE, ccs, and is untargeted. CC? it's a gap closer and it's inescapable. Burst? Panth actually has that. Panth even gets 2 blocks instead of 1. Mind you, auto attacks aren't as impactful as a stun, but at least panth can build item 3102 and not have it get used if noc blocks with his shield too.

The only thing I can think of that riot likes about noc is that he destroys isolated targets and has godly sticking if he isn't cc'd. That said, only about half of noc's kit actually helps him with that identity. His passive is half assed sustain that only exists to help his jungling. His E is, between its leash time and range, just bad. His W is good, but it really needs to stop playing Three Stooges with item 3102 . His Q is good. It really fits what the champ seems to want to be. Perhaps a rework based more around his Q would be interesting. His ult could be good, but on his current kit, it doesn't do enough.

I don't really know what to do with him. I want him to be a worth while pick. I like the his theme, and I think that his theme has a lot of potential. A lot more potential than is currently utilized. I think everything from his kit to his stats to his play style are scattered about, with some aspects saying assassin, some saying melee carry, and some saying bruiser. I think he needs at least one of these removed from his kit. I think the most interesting thing that Riot could explore is to make him a mobile melee carry that can turn teamfights into skirmishes, allowing Nocturne to better create an environment where he thrives.

One Bind Morgana4 votes

good thread but op is tier 3 poster at best

downvoted

HateDaddy7 votes

{quoted}

good thread but op is tier 3 poster at best

downvoted

Reported

Enjoy your ban

Earl Eulrich2 votes

+ he should get some additional defense on his ult (shield for range traveled, or just some defensive stat-boost), as it is a very visible way to enter the fry and there´s no escape-plan for him - it´s a bruiser/tanks tool to initiate, not an assassination-patern (especially as he needs to cling to his target for quite a while unlike other assassins).

hgjkdlsaf jeldvb1 votes

He needs combat mobility, desperately. It's fine if he's squishy, but he needs to be able to deal his damage. Right now, he can't in way too many situations.

Earl Eulrich1 votes

a well, with his q and any fear he´s a pretty fast guy - sure, you can peel him away because he has only 1 real gapcloser, but i think that would be sort of fair if he either got more dmg or more tankiness. Adding some kind of shadow-step wouldnßt be accounted for.

Only Play Darius1 votes

Well he's like MasterYi, which are both squishy base stats, except unlike Yi he doesn't have untargetablilty, damage reduction, or slow immune, which is why he is usually built like an off-tank instead.

BluePolarizer7 votes

Yi doesn't have squishy base stats at all. He's as tanky as Darius. If Yi itemizes bruiser, then he's just as tanky as Darius is.

Only Play Darius1 votes

{quoted}

Yi doesn't have squishy base stats at all. He's as tanky as Darius. If Yi itemizes bruiser, then he's just as tanky as Darius is.

LOL

BluePolarizer1 votes

check base stats at 18. They differ by 100 HP, that's it.

hgjkdlsaf jeldvb1 votes

That's quite a bit, but I see your point, and agree. Ultimately, Yi's enables him to destroy unprepared teams 1v5 if he plays well. He can dodge multiple ccs multiple times as fast as alpha strike comes up. It's also a gap closer. On top of that, yi has strong steroids and a much better passive than noc. meditate is also a more interesting and powerful spell than noc's w

AbsoluteSadman1 votes

Except nocturne doesnt have the raw damage or built in durability on spells.

Or as high as base stats.

Or snowballs as hard.

Qwandee1 votes

rengar gets more rewards because rengar is harder to play... rengar actually has to aim his e-bola and rengar has to be running towards his target and rengar can be countered by a pink ward where as nocturne cannot. also rengar's leap can be cancelled mid air by like janna q and then he gets exhausted and dies.. i cant remember the last time ive seen nocturne get hit out of ult if its even possible.. plus nocturne like i said pink wards dont stop nocturne.

Keyoshi1 votes

no....just no, don't ever give your opinion.

Qwandee1 votes

Lol you sound like an intelligent person nope... no you're not you're like equivalent to a war criminal in a north korean concentration camp... telling me to never give my opinion the logic..

HateDaddy2 votes

You think pink wards matter then by the time you think to place it once you've been warned an ulted Rengar is in range, he's already jumped on your carry, killed him, ravaged your village, eaten your women, stole your bikes and is smoking a cigar on a nice little cot laughing at you for thinking your pink Ward mattered.

Qwandee1 votes

.... you're stupid you deep pinkward not pinkward before he jumps..

hgjkdlsaf jeldvb1 votes

You also have more than .5s to peel noc off, and rengar's bola doesn't have a 2s telegraph and deals AD scaling physical damage. Noc's fear may as well not have damage, since it's magic, and he'll have no pen. Anyone with a dash can escape it, and then nocturne has no way to follow up. Rengar can get cc'd? So can noc. He blocks 1 spell. Do you know how hard it is to pick out the cc when 5 spells come at you at once? What about when 2 are ccs and you have to pick your poison? Once you're peeled off, you're done.

Qwandee1 votes

nocturne doesnt get cc till after his ability hits rengar can get knocked out of his leap.. and mitigate all his damage and then he's dead.

duludem3331 votes

noc can get hit out of his ult

Halo1 votes

No he cant...

Halo1 votes

There shouldn't even be a discussion here. Nocturne is straight out weaker then rengar. If nocturne ults the enemies get a warning. Rengar only gives them a warning if he gets close.

Rengar have better 1v1 than nocturne because of his single target damage.

Rengar can get knocked out yes. The diffrence being all rengar needs to engage is a buff. Nocturne needs a ult with a 100sec cd in the highest level. Without ult noc is kinda useless. Rangars ult has a 70 sec cd and thats not even his only way of engaging.

Rengar naturaly gains more hp and armor than nocturne.

Rengar can burst targets down noc can not.

Rengar has more reliable cc. Nocturne needs to wait 2 sec before it activates.

Seriously, it shouldnt even be an argument. Rengar IS stronger.

Qwandee1 votes

i didnt say nocturne was equivalently strong.. dumbie.. i said rengar is harder to play therefore recieves more rewards..

Halo1 votes

Rengar is also easier because of the above.

DevilishMetal1 votes

My best explanation for this is that Noc is given multiple stat buffs from his passive, Q, and W passive that his squishy start balances it out.

HOWEVER, I feel like many changes have been made to champions with steroids to offensive stats early on that his base HP could use a bit of a buff. Just want to explain the logic behind the low base HP in the first place.

hgjkdlsaf jeldvb2 votes

So does yi, but yi is clearly way stronger in way more scenarios. I think is trying to fill 3 different roles, but gets the weaknesses of all 3 and is ultimately spread to thin to be functional

WeFlyNoLie1 votes

Rengar doesn't have a spell shield and last time I checked he can't jump on a squishy in lane from halfway across the river.

Rootworth1 votes

'Cause he's a ghost.

RainbowIcee1 votes

rengar ? you mean Vi.. her ult is better than noc's plus it has longer reach with her Q + ult at lv 6 which is a very crucial stage.

Nin10do00141 votes

Rengar's is also similar in the sense that he can bypass wards and make a huge impact for ganking.

However, I'm not saying you're wrong. I'd agree that Vi also outclasses Noct since her ult has such a large impact with ganks.

Mandang01 votes

Inherent sustain?

4nth0l0gy1 votes

I think some of those numbers are carried over from season 2/3, when he was super viable and scary. I think Noc could use a little love...but I would rather see his kit reworked to better resemble an assassin style.

TheRainInSpain1 votes

Nocturne is another one of the older champions that need a rework to keep up with the game, though he doesn't desperately need a rework as what had happened to Sion.

roroer1 votes

Aatrox

Akesgeroth1 votes

I do think Nocturne could use some love, but making him tankier is risky. He has some nice sustain through his passive, a spell shield, great mobility thanks to his Q (and his ult if you want to count that) and a fear to give him an edge in a 1v1.

Noc mostly seems to have issues in teamfights. Though he can win 1v1s easily because of his fear and sustain, in team fights he can't burst down his target and escape like other assassins (which is what prompted pros to build him like a bruiser btw). TBH, I'm not sure what could be changed about him without making him blatantly OP. Buff his teamfight potential and he's an unstoppable nightmare in the early game. Try and nerf his early game and suddenly he's ineffective.

Truth be told, Nocturne seems to be an early game champion meant to allow his team to snowball and end early before he falls off. It's okay to have such champions, or it would be if Riot didn't mind pubstomping, but they seem dead set on nerfing pubstompers. See Morsekaiser, Veigar, Evelyn or Darius for reference.

jama6551 votes

noc needs buffs altogether everyone does what he does but better and its a damn shame Nocturne

MLDzXnRRR1 votes

He isn't not an assasin - he is melee DPS. Also he is strong in duels, skirmishes and ganks, but not in teamfights. Some other fighter-junglers have better assasinating potential than him (when build AD) - J4, Vi, Panth, Rengar all have good burst combos. Noc must autoattack to kill anyone.

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