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Intermediate Items like Bami's Cinder; Discussion and a few ideas.

AHarmlessTaco··7 votes·818 views

Thus far, intermediate components like item 3751 item 3144 item 3155item 3082item 3211 have all given players interesting, niche itemization choices pre-final items. I like these items a lot more than simply buying item 1011 item 1031 item 1038 , even if those items do serve the purpose of pure stat efficiency and some ambiguity in their selection of a final item.

. Take for instance, item 1011 . This item builds into item 3742 item 3143 item 3083 item 3116 and USED to build into item 3068 . Since the introduction of item 3751 , never once have I thought "Man, I sure miss when SFC built out of Giant's Belt..." . That being said, I think it would be pretty cool to add in a health item with item 3143 's Slow Pulse that is an intermediate item. And even more importantly, I think it would be VERY nice to have either an Armor item or Health item with Momentum that built into item 3742 , which currently has a VERY boring build path IMO. . Does anyone have alternate suggestions or feedback on why they LIKE item 1011 or item 1031 rather than intermediate items?

Side note: I think that item 2053 item 3024 item 3082 are all interesting armor choices for different reasons, so perhaps someone could suggest a niche that is unfilled currently by an armor item.

21 Comments

Sckullzz1 votes

I think the flat stats would have to drop in order to balance the add passive/active effect. I would also look at which has the greater impact: flat efficiency stats, or miniature active/passive effects? As Vayne, I've tried using item 3144's passive before completing item 3153, and it just doesn't do enough for me. But then again, getting item 3057 on Ezreal is pretty good, but I don't think it makes as much of an impact until I get item 1038, the stat-centered item.

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

Riot has been all about moving away from hidden power lately, and considering the lack of clarity surrounding stat efficiency VS actives/passives, I think a great move would be really to put emphasis on the niche's of these items. I do agree that stats would all around have to be tuned appropriately, and perhaps bases or scaling could be shifted amongst all champions.

I think you make a good point about "which is better"? and I think it is a serious problem for new players. Take for example item 2053 which builds from item 1031 and item 1006 , or item 3144 which builds from item 1053 and item 1036 I think these are MUCH more interesting versions of a stat efficient item building into a niche item for low cost.

Rather than having to compare item 3057 to item 1038 or compare item 3144 to item 1038 , I think it would be a LOT more interesting to compare item 3057 to item 3144 to item 3134 etc... and not worry about flat damage output in raw AD.

Armor doesn't really have that dynamic either...

Miror B1 votes

See, for me I'd just really like to see the mage items build into eachother (like item 1052 + gold could get you item 1026 , and item 1026 + gold could get you item 1058 ). Then it'd make buildpaths far easier, while also enabling people to go for the tri-amp tomb thing like how AD's have the longswords into youmou's/other armor pen items.

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

I don't remember the whole discussion but I believe that is one reason they made item 1011 build from item 1028 . Not sure why they said they didn't want to do that for AD or AP items.

Sckullzz1 votes

Kind of just thinking out loud, it might be easier for adcs to farm than melee tanks. If that were true, the easier building gives tanks a way to play defensively and still be able to hold up to the hard hitting power of ADCs?

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

MMM, is that in response to why Giant's Belt builds from Ruby but B.F. does not build from Long Sword? I'm not disagreeing with you, just not quite sure what you're going for.

Sckullzz1 votes

{quoted}

MMM, is that in response to why Giant's Belt builds from Ruby but B.F. does not build from Long Sword? I'm not disagreeing with you, just not quite sure what you're going for.

Yes, that's in response to item 1028 going into item 1011, but nothing builds into BF. Maybe there's something to it, maybe I'm drawing random connections that aren't really connected lol

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

No, Im sure there is a good reason for it. Making the purchasing steps easier for champions that are difficult to farm with seems totally reasonable in terms of simply helping them survive long enough to farm. Flip side is expensive items like bf and nlr force champions to stick it out longer with a longer vulnerability period before buying a big ticket item.

Sckullzz1 votes

{quoted}

No, Im sure there is a good reason for it. Making the purchasing steps easier for champions that are difficult to farm with seems totally reasonable in terms of simply helping them survive long enough to farm. Flip side is expensive items like bf and nlr force champions to stick it out longer with a longer vulnerability period before buying a big ticket item.

So then would Giant's Belt be considered more of a mid game item then?

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

I mean, considering its final built items, maybe? I am a support main, so I cant attest too accurately... but mid game to me is considered to be @first towerfall. IMO most top laners are going to want item 3068 or item 3071 or item 3027 then item 3065 before they want item 3143 or item 3742 and most likely wont have all 3 before a tower falls. This would make Giant's belt fairly postponed until ~7000 gold mark? Maybe even later.

Sckullzz1 votes

{quoted}

I mean, considering its final built items, maybe? I am a support main, so I cant attest too accurately... but mid game to me is considered to be @first towerfall. IMO most top laners are going to want item 3068 or item 3071 or item 3027 then item 3065 before they want item 3143 or item 3742 and most likely wont have all 3 before a tower falls. This would make Giant's belt fairly postponed until ~7000 gold mark? Maybe even later.

Yeah I can get behind that. I never even realized that is exactly what I do when I play top... Sunfire or Cleaver when playing most top ads, and almost always RoA and Spirit when playing aps... YOU KNOW ME SO WELL haha

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

Yeah it's really not THAT diverse.... The only times you dont go that route is if you are a Triforce user or you are against Tryndamere/Yasuo. That is the only time Randuin's rush is pretty solid.

Sckullzz1 votes

Even for the few ADCs that go top will get Cleaver or ghostblade, and usually Cleaver for kiting.

Xenoxi1 votes

Another taco brother!

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

I didnt know about you. #unknown

Xenoxi1 votes

Most of our brothers don't, i was abandoned at birth from mother.

AHarmlessTaco2 votes

Mother knows best. :P

Sckullzz1 votes

Also, what do you think of changing the active on Ohmwrecker? Good/bad? Would you call it a mid-game item?

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

I have never bought Ohmwrecker nor have I seen it used in a serious game, so my statements are purely speculative and based on readings.

Ohmwrecker is an item whose active is best used by snowballing, dive intensive champions, or by supports wishing to enable such dives. This kind of design is counter intuitive, however, because not only do these diving champions often not need this active, but having this kind of extra power only further defeats the purpose of towers as safe havens for behind lanes. (The reason I say that this active is unnecessary is that snowballing champions are better off investing in damage items, and by the time a support can afford it, towers are no longer very useful.)

I have made a few posts in the past about making Ohmwrecker a viable support purchase by allowing it to affect allied towers. Whether a faster fire rate, or a large aoe field akin to the Teemoing electric fields, this kind of change would help supports hold bot lane towers more efficiently. To that extent, I would see Ohmwrecker replace Talisman's speed boost. Just one suggestion, but one I could see working.

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

That being said, I do see Ohmwrecker currently as a 2nd item rush, assuming an early lead on an early game oriented team like Lee Sin, Lucian, Blitzcrank, Ekko, and Riven. Either Blitz or Lee could buy it.

Sckullzz1 votes

I've bought and used it once YEARS ago when it first came out purely out of curiosity. It would be a great niche item if towers were actually hard to take down.

I could see it working well on Leona, but by the time she buys the item, she would be tanky enough to take the hits, and the adc would more like have the damage to dish out without using the active.

I like the turret buff idea. Just imagine that item with Janna tho...

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