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@Riot When are you going to stop being so forgiving of adcs?

Succubús GF··88 votes·3,969 views

This has happened SO MANY TIMES. ADC abuses x and gets away with it. Oh mage is using this or assassin abusing this? Insta nerf. Oh but wait, there are so few instances that they DO that, but you better believe when it happens it gets insta nerfed. Varus mid has been a thing. Funny how the minute varus got bursted by syndra, a mage in her own territory, she gets insta nerfed. Prime example of riot favoriting adcs. I am not denying syndra didn't need to be tweaked but it isn't a coincidence that the minute adc mains complained about burst mages they get toned down. "OMFG QQ LEBLANC HURTS SO MUCH" So they turned her into a kite mage. Meanwhile draven still throws one axe and deletes everything in sight. Funny how adcs will cry about getting deleted meanwhile Twitch exists and will delete an entire team. He's been, what, number 1-5 adc for a while. "ADCs are meant to be squishy" but yet tanks are about to get punished for adcs abusing d shield? Sounds about right. Now Lucian has been mid a handful of times in pro play but now its getting more and more popular. And there is NOTHING fun or rewarding about winning against him. I was playing Taliyah, if I missed w, he auto killed me. He had essence reaver and zeal when I had roa and rylais and he still deleted me. Like what is the counterplay? Oh wait there isn't any because riot doesn't give a shit about mages, contrary to popular belief riot hasent cared about what happens mid lane for a LONG time, that is of course unless it is interfering with bot lane or jungle or even top.

131 Comments

magic lasso30 votes

ADC are flashy and simple to use and the majority of players are simple-minded and like flashy things.

Elikain18 votes

Hmm, and i guess your picks are the only ones who require skill to play?

Hong Kong Revolt16 votes

Why is it ok for ADC to go mid and beat anyone in lane when they do all the damage to towers and all the damage in teamfights? An adc that goes mid should get crushed off of base stats alone. But Lucian gets to statcheck everyone from Orianna to Zed at all stages of the game.

Elikain5 votes

Because most Mages that go mid aren't point and click mages. They're skillshot oriented and Lucian is a really mobile Marksman. Or are you asking me why is it fair for Lucian to specifically go mid?

I mean, you can make the same argument with Galio mid that builds tank and still manages waves no problem, deals a lot of damage to champions if he catches them, can soak up a lot of punishment and can still be at one ult reach from either top or bot lane, thanks to his ult (and he has a TP as well). So in respect to Lucian mid, why is Galio allowed to perform in the role of a mid laner that is usually a Mages job, as a tank?

Furthermore, didn't Riot change the damage for mages to scale off their AP (to true damage dealt to turrets on AAs) quite a while ago? So AD and AP champions should scale similarly when it comes to AA damage to turrets from their respective stats and the only difference should be in AS and crit Marksmen always buy. But Lucian mid doesn't buy crit, as far as i've seen.

I highly doubt Lucian mid wins against an assassin like Zed. If he does, it's because of Exhaust to at least allow him to not die to Zed's burst while he duels him for his life. And that will most likely happen the moment he buys BotrK, not before. He does need some lifesteal after all.

Succubús GF5 votes

The point was, adcs shouldn't get to do what they want for free. Solo lane lulu got gutted like 50 times because she needed to be a support, solo lane janna too. Not to mention it's the fact that it's bullshit that you play a skill shot oriented champion into someone who just autos you to death. Real fair counterplay there right? Also, Galio isn't a tank fully, he still scales off of ap pretty well and has always been designated for the mid lane, kind of like Vladimir, or Swain

Elikain3 votes

Lucian was nerfed time and time again. Lethality, BC, BorK... You name it. Riot can't just destroy a champion because some people don't like them going mid (Lucian mid). If he is healthy there, i don't see a reason why Riot should force him to go bot again. People did the exact opposite for Ziggs bot, where THEY wanted Riot to do nothing to Ziggs because they found that a mage replacing a Marksman was a nice change of pace.

Riot replied that if the style was healthy and could be supported by the current bot lane meta, they didn't intend to meddle in those matters. If the entire bot lane shifted because of Ziggs (or mid lane shifts because of Lucian), both of them would've been nerfed. Not saying that Lucian can't be nerfed if he's too strong, i'm just saying that there's a reason why Riot takes action sometimes immediately and why other times they don't.

Janna is the worst example you could've provided as she was meant to be a support, nothing else. If she builds AP, her utility is immensely boosted. She herself doesn't have any reliable damage but she has a ton of healing, damage absorption and CC. The way her kit works basically supports non-aggression and the reason why her "mage" was gutted (solo laner) was because she didn't even fight her opponent, she just cleared minion waves with a single use of her Q. No enemy champion could pressure her lane and if they managed to do so, shielding turrets was again delaying it considerably.

Remember that Sivir was reworked for the same reason, because she didn't even fight in her lane, she was just eating up entire minion waves with the use of her Richochet constantly.

Skias9 votes

[{quoted}](name=magic lasso,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AYbGRfcs,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-06-07T04:16:02.193+0000)

ADC are flashy and simple to use and the majority of players are simple-minded and like flashy things.

ADC... Is flashy? Since when?

Knoyle4 votes

The really mobile ones can be flashy and Jhin is Jhin but it really depends on what you would say "flashy" is.

Saianna22 votes

That shit started in late S2, gone super-retarded-high with ADC itemization update and is on that level ever since.

Reading such threads makes me feel relieved that I'm not the only one seeing this bullshit. It's sad, that those threads are overall rare and burried under hundreds of shitposts :/

Elikain11 votes

What part of Doran's Shield is being "abused" by Marksmen? The item is simply too good for a starting item and it provides a hefty ton of HP regen so not even Marksmen want to avoid it, at the expense of some early game damage. If you can take damage and not waste pots in excess (regen a lot of it back over time), than the item's a bit too strong.

Same thing happened with Frost Queen's Claim, after it got buffed for Supports. Mages ended up buying it as a first item to dip into gold gen not meant for them and as a cheep active slow that could pretty much secure ganks and make sure the enemy wasn't going anywhere if you intended to blow them up with, at that point, undodgeable skillshots. So that time, Mages weren't "broken as shit" because of this, FQC was simply too good to pass up for a class that could've used it due to it's stats. I didn't see Tanks or Junglers dip into the same item, because the gold gen was not worth the stats you're paying for and not using for anything.

Ahristocats4 votes

{quoted}

What part of Doran's Shield is being "abused" by Marksmen?

well doe, doran shield is obviously a tank item kappa

Mandang05 votes

It's funny that every single ADC abuse case just so happens to be an absurdly overstatted item in the first place...

But seriously if people want an ADC-abuse-proof item, here's literally the only thing you need to do: don't put damage on it. Boom, solved, not fkin hard.

"Bbbut doran's shield doesn't have damage" - replace the damage to minions stat with something defensive and see if adc still buys it (they won't)

Junkο9 votes

So Twitch is the next board circlejerk hate champion I guess? Or I guess ADCs as a whole?

Seriously Caitlyn has been oppressive and top 1 ADC since her rework but you decide to complain about Twitch who is not only hard countered by Cait but also has been viable for like, a patch, maybe 2 and only because Botrk was buffed? He will go back to the trashcan once Botrk is nerfed. Nerf Botrk and DD and the game will be back to Caitlyn being the only viable ADC because she is the only one who doesn't get blown up before landing an auto atack.

Also the fact that you think shit like old LB was healthy for the game disgusts me.

Succubús GF2 votes

No, Adcs as a whole would be correct. Did you forget that adcs have been stupidly dominating since before I started playing in s4? I could've talked about how caits nerf might as well have been a buff but I was talking about burst so try again?????????? When did I EVER say old lb was healthy? Stop being stupid and read? Turning an assassin into a kite mage was bad but I didnt say healthy

Junkο10 votes

ADCs have been dominating? Since when.? I started playing in Season 2 and they have always been the bitches of other roles until the 30 minute mark. There was a brief moment in Season 6 with the ADC update, but most of them got gutted after and they ended up in even worse spot than before.

Sadistic Veigar12 votes

To be completely fair, Twitch probably enjoys the trash can, no?

Troll for Trump2 votes

Or I guess ADCs as a whole?

It's been this way literally since the ADC marksman update, even maybe before that.

When have you ever gone through one week without complaints about ADC X or Y or ADCs as a whole?

ADCs are the most important role in the game. Unfortunatly, that's the way things are. We try to make ADCs not mandatory, but even those are extremely limited (Morde, ZIggs, Cass, duo melee bot, etc.).

As the most important role, they have to be the ones the game balances around, and sometimes that sucks.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku8 votes

Syndra **insta **nerf ?? nice joke.

Succubús GF5 votes

Shes been nerfed at least 4 times since s7 started Nice meme

JavelinJoe11 votes

Camille laughs at Syndra's 4 nerfs while thinking how nice it is that she is still playable after them.

Succubús GF4 votes

Syndra is confused because Camille's winrate is over 50% and syndra's is under 50%. Idk tho

Chembaron Yamada8 votes

Camille's winrate over 50%? Since when? Lolalytics (49,08) Champion.gg (50,34) Lolking (44,3) Leagueofgraphs (48,2)

Champion.gg is the only website I can find stating a winrate slightly over 50%. And I wouldn't really trust that website tbh.

Succubús GF3 votes

Oh my b I only looked at champ.gg

Kingdom Corn1 votes

{quoted}

Camille's winrate over 50%? Since when? Lolalytics (49,08) Champion.gg (50,34) Lolking (44,3) Leagueofgraphs (48,2)

Champion.gg is the only website I can find stating a winrate slightly over 50%. And I wouldn't really trust that website tbh.

Champ.gg shows plat+ winrate... I guess its not too trust worthy because its kinda bias.

GayFluffyUnicorn5 votes

Kinda bias? Why would the winrate of bronze or silver be trustworthy when those players can't play the champs to their capability?

Ahristocats4 votes

XD right? she got nerfed like 8 patches ago or more and now she got -50 radius on W

this thread is such a joke

Lord Desert8 votes

Riot needs to stop to shorten the game length, (most) adcs are meant to be extremely good in the lategame with 4+ items. Right now this "lategame" is not even reached in half of the games anymore xD But adcs miraculously are still able to ascend to their "lategame" state... with 2-3 items, which then shortens the timeframe where Tanks etc. are strong. Thus creating a snowball heavy, earlygame meta. Which may be nicer to watch because more stuff will be happing, but things like comebacks etc will become rarer and rarer. And if every game ends up beeing a rofl stomp it is also not fun to watch in the long run.

Succubús GF6 votes

I think it also has to do with the fact that adc items are getting cheaper

Lord Desert3 votes

That was just the recent "addition". Heal and shield stat, weaker turrets, new and buffed items etc. all benefited adcs and their scaling. Jungle changes also impacted the overall gamelength by a lot, causing snowballs left and right...

Stars Shaper8 votes

Syndra has been a problem herself, not because of Varus. It just showed most because a mid-range squishy mage shouldn't dominate a long-range artillery.

Also:

  • Varus mid isn't an ADC taking a Mage/Assa place, he is meant to be an AD Artillery in the midlane
Thefrostyviking6 votes

Hello!

While i understand your frustration at Twitch and Lucian you should remember that they are exceptions, Twitch is just broken because how powerful is kit and item syngergy is.

Meanwhile Lucian is just the botlane equivalent of Riven, less burst but more sustained damage.

If you want to talk about marksmen then Ashe andVarus are the archetypes.

Do you find either of those two OP i wonder?

Because i´ve played both and seen others play them, and the only thing i can think of is how difficult it is to just not feed like hell when some mage is poking, some assassin or fighter is diving.

Or just when the team doesn't feel like peeling.

I like playing Ashe , she has been one of my top 3 mains for longer then i can remember, and i dare say that i am fairly sure of how good or bad she is a time.

Currently she´s kinda bad, because you need a metric ton of peel just to not die instantly.

Really, because the standard lategame ADC doesn't work people feel the need to play others like Draven Lucian Twitch who all are strong early on or snowball very easily.

Come back when Ashe Ashe is dominating with a 15% pickrate or more and i´ll believe that Marksmen are OP.

' And in your post you mentioned missing your W as taliyah, that's nearly a capital sin on her as far as i know, at such a time you were essentially supposed to die regardless of who you were fighting as long as they didn't miss everything too.

And Lucian could not have killed you quickly with those items granted the ones you had, if i had to guess you either tanked all his abilities or his ultimate or just stood there while he shot at you for like 8 seconds nonstop.

Don´t call marksmen OP just because of a few exceptions or because you´ve missplayed, that stuff seriously has a fallback that often ends up hurting the ones among us that aren't playing the OP ones and i would really, really appreciate if you did not. :(

Succubús GF3 votes

They're annoying as hell but I wouldn't ever say theyre op, they have clear and direct counterplay.

Do you find either of those two OP i wonder?


So when Lucian has a dash what do I do? An adc having a dash specifically, AND on a low cooldown is not fun to play against. Missing w isn't a huge sin, I hit everything else.

And in your post you mentioned missing your W as taliyah, that's nearly a capital sin on her as far as i know, at such a time you were essentially supposed to die regardless of who you were fighting as long as they didn't miss everything too.

But, he did? He q'd me once ed me once and ulted. He also had exhaust so there was very little I can do when he gets 2 autos per spell

And Lucian could not have killed you quickly with those items granted the ones you had, if i had to guess you either tanked all his abilities or his ultimate or just stood there while he shot at you for like 8 seconds nonstop.

I was making the statement that marksmen are favorited by riot and therefore do not get penalized for abusing things other classes would get screwed for abusing. I didn't misplay anything? I literally beat him in lane, he is just obnoxiously broken. Why pick a champion with skillshots when you can pick on that just autos. Did you know faker was beaten by Lucian mid? I wonder how you'd feel then.

Don´t call marksmen OP just because of a few exceptions or because you´ve missplayed, that stuff seriously has a fallback that often ends up hurting the ones among us that aren't playing the OP ones and i would really, really appreciate if you did not. :(

Thefrostyviking1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Afk Warding,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AYbGRfcs,comment-id=000e0000,timestamp=2017-06-07T18:59:48.651+0000)

They're annoying as hell but I wouldn't ever say theyre op, they have clear and direct counterplay.

So when Lucian has a dash what do I do? An adc having a dash specifically, AND on a low cooldown is not fun to play against. Missing w isn't a huge sin, I hit everything else.

It had a 14 seconds cooldown, about same as Zed or Ezreal.

But, he did? He q'd me once ed me once and ulted. He also had exhaust so there was very little I can do when he gets 2 autos per spell

I shall be clear here, had you missed your W-E against anyone as taliyah and then gotten exhausted then you were dead regardless of who you were fighting. I can't really think of any mage, fighter or assassin that would fail to kill you at such a time.

I was making the statement that marksmen are favorited by riot and therefore do not get penalized for abusing things other classes would get screwed for abusing. I didn't misplay anything? I literally beat him in lane, he is just obnoxiously broken. Why pick a champion with skillshots when you can pick on that just autos. Did you know faker was beaten by Lucian mid? I wonder how you'd feel then.

And what are marksmen abusing? What are they doing that others can´t?

Nothing, they are very rarely ever that strong.

And yes i am aware of lucian, and i also know that people are counterpicking him with vel koz and beating the lucians by miles, a product of Korean soloq. Because even the ranged venison of riven won't beat a long range mage like vel.

And how is it obnoxiusly broken? Had you landed your W-E-Q then he would have died! Ahri,Anivia,Syndra, lux. and probably Orianna should all have been able to beat a lucian provided skills were equal.

Instead you complain that he beat you as taliyah who is competently reliant on landing W-E which any mobile champ can easily avoid, any single one.

Instead you missed, got exhausted and tanked his ultimate.

Really, normal lucian with heal would have killed you at that point too.

Then i also want to call you out for something else.

You´ve been writing as if Lucian represents the entire marksmen role, i seriously disapprove :(

Ahris3 votes

{quoted}

It had a 14 seconds cooldown, about same as Zed or Ezreal.

I shall be clear here, had you missed your W-E against anyone as taliyah and then gotten exhausted then you were dead regardless of who you were fighting. I can't really think of any mage, fighter or assassin that would fail to kill you at such a time.

And what are marksmen abusing? What are they doing that others can´t?

Nothing, they are very rarely ever that strong.

And yes i am aware of lucian, and i also know that people are counterpicking him with vel koz and beating the lucians by miles, a product of Korean soloq. Because even the ranged venison of riven won't beat a long range mage like vel.

And how is it obnoxiusly broken? Had you landed your W-E-Q then he would have died! Ahri,Anivia,Syndra, lux. and probably Orianna should all have been able to beat a lucian provided skills were equal.

Instead you complain that he beat you as taliyah who is competently reliant on landing W-E which any mobile champ can easily avoid, any single one.

Instead you missed, got exhausted and tanked his ultimate.

Really, normal lucian with heal would have killed you at that point too.

Then i also want to call you out for something else.

You´ve been writing as if Lucian represents the entire marksmen role, i seriously disapprove :(

The fact that adc can kill someone without really landing anything is broken. Ahri cannot kill someone even when landing everything(unless she is ahead, but if even, she cant lol). If an apc is behind, they will probably never be back in game. But if adc is behind, just a simple misplay by an ahead mage would mean that adc can kill them. Even if mages are fed, if they miss their skill they are no stronger than a cannon minion. Which is imo pretty bad design. Unless that is how it is supposed to be, then ADCs are just OP. A lot less room for mistakes than apc and yet can carry harder and do more damage consistently. They are also not mana gated. ADCs require no skills at all, except to have enough to be better than opposing ADC. Well not better, but be more fed.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

{quoted}

The fact that adc can kill someone without really landing anything is broken. Ahri cannot kill someone even when landing everything(unless she is ahead, but if even, she cant lol). If an apc is behind, they will probably never be back in game. But if adc is behind, just a simple misplay by an ahead mage would mean that adc can kill them. Even if mages are fed, if they miss their skill they are no stronger than a cannon minion. Which is imo pretty bad design. Unless that is how it is supposed to be, then ADCs are just OP. A lot less room for mistakes than apc and yet can carry harder and do more damage consistently. They are also not mana gated. ADCs require no skills at all, except to have enough to be better than opposing ADC. Well not better, but be more fed.

How is it broken? If he was behind then he would have needed more than 8 seconds to kill you from the start of the fight. A single mage combo can kill in under 2 seconds, i would know since i main midlane and over 4 different mages regularly and another 3 when i feel like it.

And it's untrue that mages are garbage if they fall behind a little, that's very damm far from the truth.

I´ve gone 0,4,0 less on serveral and still made comebacks having the most damage and kills in the end, particularity on Syndra and Lux, a few times on malz and Ahri as well. Anivia and even Azir before the final nerfs made him too difficult for me to succeed with.

Ori is also very forgiving, as is vel koz.

The reason you lost is because of 2 things.

First, you missed your main burst damage, the E-W combo, second, you let him get in range and just stand and auto as a result. And from what i hear you also facetanked his ultimate.

Had you been kiting properly wtih a rylai then no amount of dashes should have let a lucian gapclose on you as taliyah, i know because even when playing Ahri i found it hard to approach a good one. And if a champion can make Ahri struggle with gapclosing then only a few will stand a chance.

And you call mages harder than marksmen? All it takes for a mage is the half baked skill to aim a bit towards the very slow and immobile marksmen and you can literally kill them in a single rotation unless a lulu is stacking shields and heals.

And i´ve played Ahri, a lot.

She can still kill easily with a good all in, the only difference now is like landing a single Q more first if you lack AP or are dealing with someone whos building health.

Really, for having a 20% pickrate it's amazing to have 52% winrate at this time i am writing. Even when nerfed.

Next time, don't let a DPS champ get past your burst and stand ontop of you, i am sure you´ll find more success that way.

And you might wana stop playing Taliyah if you feel so frustrated, she´s been nerfed nearly as hard as Azir, while you can play her and succeed it's probably twice as hard compared to any other. It's really no wonder Lucian felt confident enough to go near you, even after you missplayed.

Succubús GF2 votes

You replied to someone who wasn't me (the op) btw. When you are an ap champion you get really REALLY behind. The difference being in mid lane they can force you entirely out of lane and you are screwed. But again if youd read(for the 50th fucking time) I WON LANE. KAY? I WON IT. Point. Blank. Period. There's nothing fun or interactive about someone autoing you to death. Syndra can be nullified by zhonyas and item 3194 Ahri literally has to hit a full rotation at least early. You cant miss an auto, see the issue here? Also zed's escape is on a 20 second cd. Did you also forget cdr is really easily accessible?

Ahristocats6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Afk Warding,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AYbGRfcs,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-06-07T01:50:13.885+0000)

she gets insta nerfed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUxwOnVY7VI

No shit getting outplayed by a point and click billion of damage 675 range spell is sure balanced

said no one ever

Thunderneedle11 votes

So 1300 dmg+ piercing crits from excessive range, point click, un dodge able autoattacks, from stealth at massive attack speed is more balanced?

Syndra can't even get in range to press her skill button

Ahristocats2 votes

{quoted}

So 1300 dmg+ piercing crits from excessive range, point click, un dodge able autoattacks, from stealth at massive attack speed is more balanced?

i didn't say twitch is balanced twitch is busted atm and needs nerf+then rework

but syndra is fcking stupid and deserves to be nerfed

meddler said that her ult is on debate right now in the balance team IT NEEDS NO DEBATES it needs an immediate nerf or change that makes it healthier

and op deserves to just stfu about syndra, she got -50 radius on W when she needs way more

KitSun92 votes

Yeesh.... people and Syndra... OK just to satisfy you here's a rebalance/nerf idea. One each sphere on Syndra ult deals only 12% of her AP ratio, HOWEVER, if the enemy is hit by either Q or W then that enemy takes an extra 8% per sphere. That leaves us at reduced dmg if they miss everything but still allows people who land their abilities to be as effective as live... Syndra says-hi

Succubús GF1 votes

You can literally say the same thing when I flash four man r w on annie and delete them all? They are called burst mages for a reason.

Ahristocats3 votes

you use flash which has 5 min cd

syndra doesn't need flash, and you can see that in lcs multiple time even riot acknowledged that syndra E is impossible to miss unless you dash or you have 500 ms syndra is just the incarnation of cancer like many things, but unlike those many things riot refuses to give us a cure to it

"we're debating on syndra ult" nice joke meddler

Skias4 votes

I still don't understand who was doing hard drugs and decided GA needed AD on it.

Rengooo3 votes

Welcome to why the assassin rework happened. Remove the one class that had the potential to keep them in check.

Dabluechimp3 votes

I don't know if anyone else has mentioned it but TL;DR remember when spellvamp got removed cause it made mages to survivable? while ADC still get to keep it

League ADCs suffer the same problem has Marksman in SMITE there are just tomany items that are incredibly strong to not get namely item 3072 , item 3085

ZT Xperimentor3 votes

Riot's been doing this since season 2, becoming pretentious and more obvious every year. And part of why the game is so stale, marksmen have been given so much freedom and power that they no longer have weak early games; nor are they limited to relying on their team thanks to the abundant safety riot pampers them with.

Fairyfleur2 votes

If you miss Seismic Shove as Taliyah you deserve to be advanced on.

Shablagoo1 votes

As a mage you rly have no right to talk because you pretty much have the highest burst in the game, maybe second to that of adc but only after like 30 mins. But adc's only counterplay is kill them fast for most classes which i see might be frustrating against lucian because he is so slick, specially for mages. I am not disagreeing with you but when we have champions like syndra or vegiar for mages your argument kinda goes out the window, when a mage has a point click is so shitty to play against, due to the nature of ap burst.

PureSilvrr5 votes

Malzahar AurelionSol Fiddlesticks Heimerdinger Morgana Swain Not all mages are burst mages my friend

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