Boards›Gameplay

Lets stop QQing about Morgana support and remind ourselves why Morgana is a support now.

metaworldpeace10··71 votes·8,608 views

Lets stop complaining about Morgana and recognize the reason she was brought down to the bot lane. When the support changes were rolled out in pre-season 4, we saw three and only three supports. Thresh, Leona and Annie. Annie came to bot lane because of her early game pressure and the ability to out burst Leona and Thresh. All three received nerfs, but Annie was hit the hardest. Braum was then released and took Annie's spot. These tanky supports were able to withstand all poke, while bringing hard/soft CC and sustain through the Targon's line. These supports ruled bot lane. Every. Single. Game. Then, Morgana/Zyra/Nami/Karma all made comebacks due to the buffs to the frostfang line and small nerfs to leona/thresh/braum. These supports were able to bring decent amount of CC, while being able to poke and peel effectively. Morgana was and still is probably the strongest support out of the "poke" supports. Morgana was solely brought to the bot lane to counter these hard engage, tanky supports...and it worked like a charm. Morgana, while being strong, allowed for other supports to be brought down to bot lane. Namely, Janna, Zyra, Sona, Nami and Karma. These supports all do pretty well against Morgana, due to their low CD's and high damage poke. Morgana has a tough time against these specific champions. The support role, as it stands now, is MUCH more diverse than it ever was back in season 3 and early season 4. Morgana was a healthy addition to the bot lane. Lets not complain about her because we want to choose Braum/Leona/Thresh every game. Lets open our minds and play Nami/Zyra/Janna/Sona against Morgana and poke her to death.

148 Comments

Morthid20 votes

rock, paper scissor. Tank, Morg, Ranged AP with lower CD.

It's either live with the reality of counter or only have 1 champion for us all to choose from so it's 100% balanced.

I prefer the rock, paper scissor approach.

Mr Comet6 votes

rock, paper, scissors, lizard, Spock.

Tank, Morg, Range AP Poker, Healer, Non-meta

I think mine is better than yours

WeFlyNoLie8 votes

A real man plays Volibear support. Volibear

Omega3608 votes

Imo, if Riot really wanted Morgana mid to be a thing, change her passive spellvamp so that it is less but doesn't get reduced when using aoe abilities. Morgana literally doesn't benefit from that spellvamp ever in game b/c it is only 20% or whatever on her q, and the rest of her spells have what, 6.6 repeating % or 1/3 effectiveness?? Also this would not affect spellvamp from items, which would stay the same, because having 60% spellvamp on aoe abilities lategame would be so op I can't even go to describe it.

Pure and simple, this change would make her benefit from building damage because of how she would have her w and ult spellvamp at full percentage. be a different type of swain, with still the unique playstyle.

TLDR Make morgana's passive apply full spellvamp on aoe abilites,* not including item spellvamp*.

SpecterVonBaren4 votes

Imo, if Riot really wanted Morgana mid to be a thing, change her passive spellvamp so that it is less but doesn't get reduced when using aoe abilities. Morgana literally doesn't benefit from that spellvamp ever in game b/c it is only 20% or whatever on her q, and the rest of her spells have what, 6.6 repeating % or 1/3 effectiveness?? Also this would not affect spellvamp from items, which would stay the same, because having 60% spellvamp on aoe abilities lategame would be so op I can't even go to describe it.

Pure and simple, this change would make her benefit from building damage because of how she would have her w and ult spellvamp at full percentage. be a different type of swain, with still the unique playstyle.

TLDR Make morgana's passive apply full spellvamp on aoe abilites,* not including item spellvamp*.

Hhm, this is actually an interesting idea, here's an upvote. Hope someone else can chime in with what they think.

shindaiwa212 votes

Honestly it's not her early laning phase that's a problem. I think her sustain + cheap pushing and mana return from dorans ring makes her quire effective against most mages. She's also damn hard to gank.

She mostly doesn't see play in mid because ~While her early waveclear is good, her waveclear later under seige conditions is poor. ~Much of the damage from her Ulti can be flased or dashed. While burning this abilities for a SUPPORT ult is good, only burning them for the ult of the most farmed champion on your team is pretty bad. Her ult can peel very well, but for a mid morg the damage would be wasted on the front line. ~ Positionion herself to ult can be difficult, tends to rely on good flashes/ghost, and she has to be right in the mix to ult. Champions like Kennen, Lissandra, and Dianna are better at getting in without using summoners. Most good picks don't need to get in the mix at all to deal shittons of AOE damage. ~Asside from her ult, which provides inconsistent damage, her QW is on quite a long cooldown and doesn't do a crazy amount of damage either. Her build paths as Mid tend to be Hourglass or ROA into tons of AP, and do not really allow for squishbag CDR items to get out more bindings. While her AP ratios are good, her long CD's and effectively single target spells make her efficiency in using lots of powerful AP items low compared to spam mages like syndra/ori/karthus.

Buffing her ulti teather length (IMO it was nerfed a long time ago in s2? when the teather length recalculation time was changed from .5S to .25S, and removed some flexibility in terms of turning away right as the second proc was about to go off.) Also buffing the radius of her Tormented soil would make walking through it considerably scarrier and increase its zoning potential, and justifying a Liandry's at some point. Maybe increasing radius per level, so her seige clear/zone would be better later.

Orangesilk1 votes

I'd like for Kennen, Lissandra and Diana to not be included in this discussion please, they are on a terrible spot of their own.

ScarletStump4 votes

.... Your concerns are not constructive. Also, shindaiwa21 only mentioned them for their ability to engage much easier than Morgana, and they make a good comparison for that aspect since they, Kennan, Lissandra, and Diana, share a similar game-play aspect with respect to Morgana's ult. Shindaiwa21 never mentioned, or even nodded at, how amazing those champions are. Shindaiwa21 even went so far as to say there are other champs who don't have to follow Morgana's game-play pattern to deal damage.

Destínum7 votes

I haven't seen anyone complain about Morgana in a long time, since people stopped playing her a much because the pro's did. Why are you even bringing this up now?

Morgana was a healthy addition to the bot lane.

Morgana mixed things up, sure, but she is everything but a healthy addition to bot lane. In fact, she's not healthy as a champion. At all. She isn't fun to play (well, a few people legit enjoy her, but those are rare), she's not particularly fun to play with and she is absolutely dreadful to play against.

metaworldpeace103 votes

I haven't seen anyone complain about Morgana in a long time, since people stopped playing her a much because the pro's did. Why are you even bringing this up now?

Morgana was a healthy addition to the bot lane.

Morgana mixed things up, sure, but she is everything but a healthy addition to bot lane. In fact, she's not healthy as a champion. At all. She isn't fun to play (well, a few people legit enjoy her, but those are rare), she's not particularly fun to play with and she is absolutely dreadful to play against.

I like to play against her if she's supporting. I can see where playing against her mid would be a problem, but in all reality I like playing against her because it forces me to choose from a wider variety of poke mages to play against her. She's cancer to play against for those that can't dodge the snare, if you can, then she's fine.

cshakes41 votes

Her Q's hitbox is cancer though. I can dodge the animation but still get snared. That's the gist of a lot of people's problems with her.

58304318_DEL4 votes

Same goes for that damn Leona's Zenith Blade! I'm 2 times my champions size away from that E, and yet I still get hit.

It feels really annoying to die to that, even though you know that should have juked it... (my ping is 35 so it's not an animation delay)

Killer X 124 votes

The box is about the same as the Mumu Q, not any bigger than that. If it appears any bigger then its because of ping issues.

ArkenStorm3 votes

not to mention the snare TIME. feels like it's an eternity. but yeah the animation is not only huge, but so is the hitbox

Ratbert4 votes

Then you realize thresh has a comparable faster skillshot (with "windup" which warns you but the total travel time is simliar) and comes with a flay for about 2.25 seconds of** hard **cc. Then you realize that it's like morg q except his q halves in cd if it misses, comes with a free engage, and still does comparable damage.

SharkLicksYou4 votes

You realize at max level her snare is 3 seconds right? Or are you dumb? Even thresh's long animation isn't even that long despite her ultimate is a big cancer chain which thresh can't eve pull off since it bases on his pull which is almost the size of a nidalee shitspear. Morgana's Q width needs to be nerf and made to be about 40% of its actual size. Not really looking towards being hit by that crap again it's also high in AP ratio as well as making you locked and not giving you the ability to use zhonyas. Only to waste an item slot for QSS or cleanse and be out played by heals in lane. Truly op support and I forgot that her shield also is retarded to make everyone invulnerable. It should only give the ability to be immune to certain slows or knock ups and not all CC. its' just dumb how you can walk into malphite ult and pretend like nothing happened.

cshakes5 votes

Thresh's animation better fits the hitbox, IMO. Morg's hitbox is just freakin' huge and spills over around the animation. -> If one dodges Thresh's animation, one has dodged the hook. If one dodges Morg's animation, one has not necessarily dodged the binding.

Hyrum Graff2 votes

This. This was also what I said about pre rework nid. Do I think the rework made her more fun to play as and against? Yes. But foxing the animation/hitbox would have made her SO much less toxic to pay against.

1st HanarSpectre21 votes

...and she is absolutely dreadful to play against.

This can literally be said about 80% of the LoL roster. The vast majority of LoL's champion will be a pain to play against when they are played properly.

EnvyDragon8 votes

The vast majority of LoL's champions don't have 2.5s snares they can fire from complete safety with hitboxes the size of Texas.

Meep Man14 votes

item 3111 item 3140 item 3139 item 3222 item 3102 item 3172

Xonra8 votes

item 3111 item 3140 item 3139 item 3222 item 3102 item 3172

People choose to ignore the numerous ways to counter cc, while yelling about how they can't counter CC. Just a matter of the fact that they can't be bothered to dare change their build path they have used for the last 30 games with zero change and would rather complain about it while buying BT than buy a MC and still have plenty of damage.

Taarki4 votes

The thing is... why should I have to spend almost 4k gold to buy an item that may not even give me and offensive stats, just to counter a spell that snares for 3 seconds, has a 10 second CD, and is bugged with the hitbox? Especially when the item has a CD of 90 seconds, compared to 10 seconds

Xonra9 votes

The thing is... why should I have to spend almost 4k gold to buy an item that may not even give me and offensive stats, just to counter a spell that snares for 3 seconds, has a 10 second CD, and is bugged with the hitbox? Especially when the item has a CD of 90 seconds, compared to 10 seconds

if you are only buying 100% offensive items you are doing it wrong anyways and no sense trying to argue the point with you past that.

Ulquiorra9957 votes

Her Q, while not a problem in solo lane against a sustained-damage mage becomes a problem with another person in lane, who possibly has large early damage (Draven, Varus, etc...) Maybe I'm biased because my fav ADC is hard countered by her and she's everywhere while ppl try out Victorious skin :P Yes, she's not most fun support to face, but I welcome support diversity she brought. I'd rather face an occasional Morgana (occasional once the skin hype settles down) than Braum or Thresh every game.

Probably the only thing she needs is a fixer hotbox on Q. That thing is really punishing to get hit - at very least it should be consistent with the hotbox.

Fury and Emperor6 votes

Champion A hardcountering champion B hardcountering champion C hardcountering champion A doesn't mean "variety and balance", it means the lane is decided in champion select.

ModKnightsKemplar5 votes

But, hard counters are a reality of the game... And personally, I like that they exist. That being the case, having a rock-paper-scissors type of interaction is the best case scenario. I have always thought that poke, sustain, and all-in should exist in this kind of relationship in the bot lane, and I think we're closer than ever to that ideal.

Fury and Emperor6 votes

But, hard counters are a reality of the game... And personally, I like that they exist. That being the case, having a rock-paper-scissors type of interaction is the best case scenario. I have always thought that poke, sustain, and all-in should exist in this kind of relationship in the bot lane, and I think we're closer than ever to that ideal.

So you pick poke and the other guy picks sustain. You lose the lane. You pick poke and the other guy picks all-in. You win the lane. Why even play when the outcome is already decided?

metaworldpeace105 votes

But, hard counters are a reality of the game... And personally, I like that they exist. That being the case, having a rock-paper-scissors type of interaction is the best case scenario. I have always thought that poke, sustain, and all-in should exist in this kind of relationship in the bot lane, and I think we're closer than ever to that ideal.

So you pick poke and the other guy picks sustain. You lose the lane. You pick poke and the other guy picks all-in. You win the lane. Why even play when the outcome is already decided?

Just because you pick "sustain" and the other team picks "poke" doesn't mean you automatically win the lane. While, sustain is favored against poke, that doesn't mean that the lane is decided in champ select. There are soooo many factors to account for. For example, jungler/mid ganks, dragon control, small catches exc.

DrCyanide2 votes

So you pick poke and the other guy picks sustain. You lose the lane.

I pick Nami and have both :)

Rawrful5 votes

Because you don't need to sit there in lane and play for individual glory? Jungle pressure (Or even just the threat of jungle pressure) swings lanes hard. Lane swapping is a common thing at high levels of play. Picking to win lane is one method of setting yourself up to win, picking for overall team comp is another. If your bot lane is weaker than theirs but the rest of your team is built to take advantage of the unique abilities your lane brings into play, you win AS A TEAM.

This is one of the biggest balance factors that Riot does a shitty job of talking about. C9 was famous for this pre-Marksman rework with their Ashe/Zyra bot lane. Ashe/Zyra was weak in lane, but brought absurd utility to the team. You first pick your Ashe/Zyra, what does the enemy do? If they pick a brutal kill lane, C9 would just lane swap. If they didn't, C9 would just passive farm with a ton of pressure from Meteos to keep them safe. They picked a 'losing' Marksman/Support lane every time because they knew that it would make their TEAM win, even if they did not individually carry.

RadiantWings2 votes

As opposed to champion A just hardcountering champion B and leaving it at that?

Besides, It's not a hard counter, just a matchup in favor of a certain one.

shindaiwa214 votes

The change from tank initiator supports to poke/sustain supports did not really occur because of support itemization changes though they were helpful. Really it was the Patch 4.10 itemization and rune changes, nerfing the early sustain on Doran's Blade, Nerfing Lifesteal Quints, Nerfing Vamp Scepter, and removing bloodthirster as a viable starting item (only Vayne, Twitch, Lucian, and Kog can open lifesteal presently) both increased the importance of sustain in the laning phase and extended its value since most ADC's don't grab lifesteal until item 3 or 4, or pay a heavy price is damage output cost efficiency if they do.

I would agree that Morg offers a lot of counterplay to tank initiator support, but all in all her damage almost makes her a tank initiator support in her own right. One thing that people don't mention that balanced lane morg that doesn't keep support morg in check is that lane morg always maxed W first, so that 3 second binding didn't become an issue until lvl 13, for support morg it becomes an issue much faster. She's much like blitzcrank in that somebody shitty can play her, be useless most of the time, then land a good binding that turns around a lane, while a Nami for instance would have to be on her game all the time to pressure a morg. In that sense she's a pain to play against.

Xonra4 votes

Lets stop complaining about Morgana and recognize the reason she was brought down to the bot lane. When the support changes were rolled out in pre-season 4, we saw three and only three supports. Thresh, Leona and Annie. Annie came to bot lane because of her early game pressure and the ability to out burst Leona and Thresh. All three received nerfs, but Annie was hit the hardest. Braum was then released and took Annie's spot. These tanky supports were able to withstand all poke, while bringing hard/soft CC and sustain through the Targon's line. These supports ruled bot lane. Every. Single. Game. Then, Morgana/Zyra/Nami/Karma all made comebacks due to the buffs to the frostfang line and small nerfs to leona/thresh/braum. These supports were able to bring decent amount of CC, while being able to poke and peel effectively. Morgana was and still is probably the strongest support out of the "poke" supports. Morgana was solely brought to the bot lane to counter these hard engage, tanky supports...and it worked like a charm. Morgana, while being strong, allowed for other supports to be brought down to bot lane. Namely, Janna, Zyra, Sona, Nami and Karma. These supports all do pretty well against Morgana, due to their low CD's and high damage poke. Morgana has a tough time against these specific champions. The support role, as it stands now, is MUCH more diverse than it ever was back in season 3 and early season 4. Morgana was a healthy addition to the bot lane. Lets not complain about her because we want to choose Braum/Leona/Thresh every game. Lets open our minds and play Nami/Zyra/Janna/Sona against Morgana and poke her to death.Some of this is true in the OP but some of it you are a bit mixed up about.

Just a few things were either off or completely wrong:

For example, Braum had nothing to do with Annie being pushed out, not even a little. Annie was gone from the support role long before Braum, and was more Morg that fully pushed her out plus her nerfs.

Braum also wasn't a champion yet when Targon's was a bit...much with people going double Targon's, that was the start of the season not when Braum came out.

Karma is probably the actual strongest "poke" support because of her out of no where burst, along with Zyra. Morg is there for CC and harass ish with her w and her black shield not for her poke.

When Karma came back as popular, for the short time she did, it actually wasn't as support that much outside of the rush combos with Sivir, which didn't last long, more Mid lane and for an awkward and confusing period, Jungle O_o

Again you are confusing time periods because when Karma and Zyra were becoming popular (Zyra was the previous season with Zyra/Ashe bot lane. That was the previous season), Braum wasn't even out yet, and Morg was becoming cemented as popular again, before Braum was even out.

I'm not even sure what you are talking about when you say allowed others to be brought down to bot lane....then name Janna and Sona <_< .Nami hasn't ever not been support and has been popular for a while, and Zyra was popular all last season, before Morg support was a popular thing.

And to sum it all up, the real and MAIN reason Morg support became a thing wasn't her poke, wasn't even her binding, it was BLACK SHIELD because Leona was becoming like support numero uno and with Black Shield it helped to counter the Leona all in onto your adcs face and everything else in her kit was icing on the cake.

Some of your post was right but soooo much of it was all kinds of bassackwards

GreedMadeFlesh4 votes

Annie Hit the hardest ? bro ? Thresh got hit hard Leona got a gentle tap Annie got reduced base damage and got her ratios BUFFED and so was her ult ( you can pretty much fight with tiber by your side all the time given enough cdr ) . Her stun is shorter early on but still deadly. Wanna hear of a nerfed supp? Lulu, the poor little purple thing did great mid and top lane, what was riot reaction ? did they tweak her to make a good support but poor sololaner ? nh, they took the "fukthissht" train and nerfed eveything about her.

Junkο3 votes

Because Morgana was picked in LCS in one game?

You know exactly the same reason Lulu mid/top became a thing? The same reason Annie support became a thing? etc...

Crownsy8 votes

Because Morgana was picked in LCS in one game?

You know exactly the same reason Lulu mid/top became a thing? The same reason Annie support became a thing? etc...

Come on now, that's not why morg sup is a thing. She is absurd against hard engage champs, who rule bot lane at the moment.

There is a reason she draws so many bans in bronze - gold, at that level people don't have the skill to consistently dodge the murder that is her Q-W combo + adc poke.

Marthian2 votes

Except if she point blanks her Q, you can't dodge at all anyways.

metaworldpeace105 votes

Except if she point blanks her Q, you can't dodge at all anyways.

If anybody has a point blank skill shot opportunity, there is about a 99% chance that they won't miss.

It Hertz When IP3 votes

Meanwhile my favorite support Soraka gets no attention... :(

MEMEME6703 votes

Morgana's Black Shield has been a problem since beta, and it continues to be a problem.

She's in the bot lane as a meta pick, but the fact that she has no counterplay makes her a binary champion which is bad overall.

It is kinda like Nida Spears (Which were also complained about since beta, btw), and it will eventually get nerfed.

Newbert Newman3 votes

Really not trying to insult you here, but isn't her counterplay "Dodge the Q?"

Same as Blitzes counterplay?

MEMEME6703 votes

Morgana's best skill by far is her E.

Dodge the Q is fine. It's what you do when you're Vi//Nautilus//Rammus etc and want to initiate on someone on her team that's the big issue.

Newbert Newman1 votes

Ok, I can see that but how do you remove it without gutting her? You either remove the E for more damage in lane(which already changes her kit+identity and probably completely removes her from bot lane), or you completely redesign the champ. Maybe it's time for Riot to decide if she's a support or a mid.............

MEMEME6702 votes

It doesn't matter if shes a support or mid (And riot forcing her into one role would do no good), black shield is going to be binary and dumb.

Riot changed Nidalee's binary spear without ruining the champ, I have faith we'll see that in time with Morgana too.

UPfreely2 votes

and here i thought it was because they were sytematically nerfing/removing CC and morg is now the golden CC child. imo its just reverse powercreep. morgs only good cuz the other good cc supports got nerfed(annie/fidd/zyra)

1st HanarSpectre16 votes

and here i thought it was because they were sytematically nerfing/removing CC and morg is now the golden CC child. imo its just reverse powercreep. morgs only good cuz the other good cc supports got nerfed(annie/fidd/zyra)

Are you high? CC is more prevalent now than ever.

doubleguac4 votes

Support CC was nerfed pretty systematically during S4, with few buffs.

-Fid's fear duration got nerfed -Annie's early stun duration got nerfed -Braum has been nerfed repeatedly since his release. While many of the nerfs were aimed at his damage, his CC also took a substantial hit -the missile speed of zyra's root got nerfed -Thresh has been nerfed god knows how many times (though I can't remember how many if any of the nerfs were aimed specifically at his CC?) -Janna's CC is slated to get nerfed (unless I'm mistaken, I remember a duration increase on her slow showing up on PBE?) -Lulu's slow no longer scales with AP (although this was mainly targeted at solo lane Lulu, it's still a nerf to support Lulu's CC)

I'm sure some support at least has gotten a buff to CC. But a lot of the supports that have gotten popular during the season have been nerfed, and the nerfs have often been targeted at their CC.

I'm going off the top of my head here, so I might have forgotten or few things or misrembered something. Feel free to correct any mistakes you see. That being said, as far as I remember, support CC has been holistically nerfed a lot this season.

UPfreely2 votes

I geuss you were absent for the fidd/rammus cc nerfs, annie passive nerf, janna slow nerf, lulu slow nerf, braum nerfs, blitzcrank nerfs. yeah there's still lots of cc in the game but show me another support with 3s cc in one spell(and a good chunk of damage at that!)

metaworldpeace108 votes

I geuss you were absent for the fidd/rammus cc nerfs, annie passive nerf, janna slow nerf, lulu slow nerf, braum nerfs, blitzcrank nerfs. yeah there's still lots of cc in the game but show me another support with 3s cc in one spell(and a good chunk of damage at that!)

Meanwhile, Fiddlesticks, Rammus, Janna and Blitzcrank all have 53% + winrates.

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by metaworldpeace10

It's been 6 years and we still don't have a "safe to leave" option when somebody never connects
Gameplay107 comments
297
votes
What if Sejuani had Lee Sin's pick rate and winrate? ( 35% PR and 51% WR)
Gameplay259 comments
270
votes
You know what's toxic? Not being able to connect to the fucking game because "firewall"
Gameplay207 comments
270
votes
Can we PLEASE have a "safe to leave" option after 5 minutes of somebody not connecting..
Gameplay119 comments
233
votes
The PBE has been down for 2 and a half weeks, first update is a nerf to... SONA??
Gameplay375 comments
172
votes
"Mordekaiser is just plain unfair" - Worlds Casters
Gameplay132 comments
171
votes