The thing that bugs me most about Irelia is not here damage, durability, stickiness, or disruption.

HateDaddy··44 votes·15,129 views

It is the fact that you literally cannot shut her down. Her Q reset spam on minions is one of the most brainless things in the world, giving her the ability to clear waves incredibly quickly with just a sheen. Once she gets tiamat (she doesn't really even need it truthfully), she can legitimately clear an entire wave in mere seconds, rotate to another lane, do it again and again. This means that any lead you build in lane through CS and experience really will not stick as long as the Irelia is willing to power-farm for a few minutes. It isn't Gangplank levels of bad, but it is close. It at least took Gangplank time and items to scale up and clear waves, Irelia does it with one item.

I compare this to facing Tryndamere in lane. The difference is, Tryndamere stays in the same lane and does it indefinitely, so you are left feeling like you have to baby-sit him or he will simply outscale you. That is frustrating, but if you are ahead and continue to shove against him, you can keep a lead. Irelia just goes to another wave and clears it and comes back before you ever have an opportunity to attempt to shut her down. You are left feeling really similar to how you feel about Tryndamere: you have to baby-sit her because any lead you have quickly dissipates because of her absurd ability to insta-gib waves (whereas you really have to just baby-sit tryndamere to shut down his split-push). The difference is, Irelia has a better teamfight while still maintaining a decent capacity to duel (certainly not as well as Tryndamere, but not as far off as you'd think).

This is the biggest issue I see with Irelia. She's incredibly too safe. There are match-ups where she is punishable. Champions like Jax can outright beat her, champions like Nasus can farm pretty decently against her and with wither + frozen heart, you destroy a bunch of her DPS. Malphite fits this same criteria. However, it does not matter because her Q spam farm acts as an escape hatch from bad situations for her, so she can resort to out-teamfighting Nasus and Jax, and just be an obnoxious split-pusher against Malphite without the intention to ever interact while keeping waves shoved and looking for picks. She has too much safety and if you removed her ability to auto clear waves like this (even reducing her Q's damage by half vs minions; or giving it a static cool-down after using it on so many minions) would do far more than any numbers nerf you could ever possibly apply on her.

55 Comments

Malak31 votes

5 ms nerf tho

Vyuprax10 votes

{quoted}

5 ms nerf tho

UNPLAYABLE

ProffessorAutism2 votes

riot should buff her dmg and tankines to compensate for the lost mobility

ankoanko1912 votes

They cant take away her minion reset. It's LITERALLY her most iconic theme ever. However, you're right that they need to remove one of Irelias functions. She has too many tools to work with.

HateDaddy8 votes

{quoted}

They cant take away her minion reset. It's LITERALLY her most iconic theme ever. However, you're right that they need to remove one of Irelias functions. She has too many tools to work with.

I don’t think they should take it away but it needs some adjusting. She literally gibs waves like it’s nothing. It can be iconic but that doesn’t mean it can’t be too powerful.

ankoanko192 votes

{quoted}

I don’t think they should take it away but it needs some adjusting. She literally gibs waves like it’s nothing. It can be iconic but that doesn’t mean it can’t be too powerful.

But she did so prior to the rework too when she reached level 13. The current Q however deals around 50 more dmg to minions than pre-rework. It's MOSTLY tiamat doing all the work. Otherwise she has always been able to just auto+Q kill a minon with only a phage.

HateDaddy6 votes

{quoted}

But she did so prior to the rework too when she reached level 13. The current Q however deals around 50 more dmg to minions than pre-rework. It's MOSTLY tiamat doing all the work. Otherwise she has always been able to just auto+Q kill a minon with only a phage.

That’s some of it but she also didn’t max Q first, whereas she maxes it now. So she clears much easier now as opposed to then when she’d max W or E first. Tiamat is some of it but it’s absolutely undeniable that it’s clearing too easily now while also being her main source of sustain and damage (not totally different from her former kit either, but again, she maxes it first now).

ankoanko195 votes

{quoted}

That’s some of it but she also didn’t max Q first, whereas she maxes it now. So she clears much easier now as opposed to then when she’d max W or E first. Tiamat is some of it but it’s absolutely undeniable that it’s clearing too easily now while also being her main source of sustain and damage (not totally different from her former kit either, but again, she maxes it first now).

Yeah true. But theyre buffing minion resistances for S9 and that will hurt her clearing.

HateDaddy2 votes

{quoted}

Yeah true. But theyre buffing minion resistances for S9 and that will hurt her clearing.

This is also true

GelsominoKiller9 votes

I might be wrong, but in my opinion Irelias kit is unsalvageable. She will never be balanced, unless she starts losing something meaningful (like 5ms :^} )

Maybe her heal passive moved to W, maybe her Q not proccing onhits...

She takes a lot of skill and reflexes to be played effectively, but in the hands of a competent player she's way too overbearing.

Glaricion8 votes

You just found out how to salvage it right there, start removing all the extras in her kit.

When Azir's bugs were finally fixed, it was revealed that he was overloaded to all hell, and was thus pruned.

Ireila just needs a bit of pruning, I don't think that her kit is (in-and-of itself) broken.

Papuga5 votes

I would second this opinion as well. Looking at what people have said and my own experiences the thing that makes least sense when fighting her is her healing. It's like you do no damage to her, her w aside. I honestly don't see why she even needs a heal on any ability anymore. With her new defensive W she already takes less damage than old Itelia. Old Irelia had no defensive stats or abilities so a bit of a heal went a long way. New Irelia has Q (which can reset on Champs so she doesn't need to be smart about it like old Irelia), W and ult as defensive tools so the healing on Q is unnecesary in my opinion.

On top of that the healing in her old kit was hardly in anyway iconic. It was there, it was nice, but it wasn't iconic. People weren't maxing W for the heal, but rather the increased true damage. So I wouldn't be too sad and I'm sure not many others would be either if she lost all healing from her kit.

Thoughts?

Śhunpo2 votes

Honestly I agree here. Plus, if she lost healing more Irelias might want to try out Ravenous Hydra and/or Death's Dance or BotrK to alleviate the loss of the heal, thus incentivising more glass-cannon builds, which is perfectly acceptable imo since she currently builds bruiser items and is still almost as tanky as an actual tank thanks to W, her healing and her overall health pool.

Papuga2 votes

I like your point about item builds. I didn't really think about it but you're right. Changing her optimal build path can also affect how tanky she feels. +1

Śhunpo1 votes

Dude, bruiser items are just so overloaded it's not funny.

Papuga1 votes

That may be so but technically all items are avaible to everyone. The other classes have their own strong items too. I suppose it's the champs that use them better than everyone else that make them feel too strong.

As an aside, I built Steraks on Mundo with all the tenacity I could find and got up to 86% tenacity. It's hilarious. Cc barely makes you pause. : D

Śhunpo1 votes

Steraks is limited to melee only, same to the Hydras. Also Steraks and Titanic make any melee champ good. It's rather stupid if you ask me.

Papuga1 votes

The two items do work well together. Perhaps they're interactions are two strong together. I personally don't build much of either as they don't have my favorite stat, cdr, so I rather tend toward BC and kindle gem items.

BALDG1VEN BOOMER8 votes

Irelia has always had that so why complain about her Q reset now?

HateDaddy23 votes

{quoted}

Irelia has always had that so why complain about her Q reset now?

Because between Tiamat and the fact that she maxes Q first now, she clears much faster, sustains better and results in her having better overall powrrfarming

ProfDrDeath4 votes

This is true.

In fact, I've come to the conclusion that I like pre-rework Irelia a hell of a lot more. Yes, that kit had its problems...but so does the new one.

BALDG1VEN BOOMER6 votes

Your missing the basis of the fact it’s always been apart of her kit.

You call it brainless in your first paragraph and gave no consensus on how to change it.

Her Q reset has always been apart of her kit since day one and nothing about her wave clear pattern has changed aside from her new E and damage done to minions which was buffed.

You’re arguing that her Q which has been the same since her release is an issue which isn’t true.

Maybe if you talked about her Q damage being buffed from 60% to 100% then we can have a conversation but aside from her actual Q it’s been the same since her release.

Only thing new that contributes to her wave clear is her E but that’s only used in shoving scenarios.

Moody P18 votes

or we can talk about how she maxes it first now when it was what she maxed last before her rework

It's entirely relevant to the conversation

BALDG1VEN BOOMER2 votes

“Her Q reset spam on minions is one of the most brainless things in the world”

It’s almost like she had that since release

Moody P15 votes

she didn't max it and had to wait longer into the game to do it than she does now

BALDG1VEN BOOMER1 votes

I think you’re failing at reading this dude is bashing her Q in general calling it brainless when it was the same concept before her rework.

It doesn’t matter if you max it first or last the damage done to minions is what contributes to her high waveclear right now. Even before rework Irelia players built Tiamat.

HateDaddy11 votes

It was brainless then and it is now, that has nothing to do with its current level of power. And it absolutely matters if you max it first, it’s a significant difference in damage and sustain.

Acanthus14 votes

Everyone is kinda missing the "why" in all of this. Irelia used to max w first. Why? True damage on-hit. This was moved to her passive. Her passive stacks up to 4 times with abilities. It also scales with ad (up to 32%). It also deals magic damage for some dumbass reason (because they didn't learn from Darius why passive strong, early high ad scaling magic damage was bad). Q applies on-hits, therefore this procs on q. This synergy, along with tiamat/ravenous hydra, which functions as an AoE on-hit is why she clears so fast. However, that isn't the full picture of bullshit. Irelia also has an ad-scaling heal on that q. It is 12-20% of her total ad (not even her bonus ad). This spell being so stupidly overloaded is why it's so hard to outduel her and why she can be such an "outplay" monster.

Edit: Next season, she gets an indirect buff in the form of rune stat-decoupling. With the loss of bone plating, she will have no reason not to take domination secondary for the ravenous hunter rune, which heals off of... you guessed it, on-hits. Unless the overgrowth buff is a bigger draw, anyway.

Rock MD6 votes

{quoted}

“Her Q reset spam on minions is one of the most brainless things in the world”

It’s almost like she had that since release

Ahri W is brainless. Is it generally a problem? No.

What if Riot reworked Ahri and now her (for some reason unchanged) W is what you max first? Would it then become a problem? Yeah probably.

Same basic principle

FilDaFunk3 votes

Because her e and r apply marks that reset her Q. I think her e and r are good enough abilities without the reset.

TheSingularity4 votes

It's much faster and flows better than the old one. The old one had a brief wind up. Irelia also scales better and is blatantly stronger than her previous form

Bârd5 votes

Her old Q didn't deal double damage to minions.

Yara04 votes

The Q dash spam through the wave reminds me of another champion people hate. Yasuo

cagelirious1 votes

{quoted}

The Q dash spam through the wave reminds me of another champion people hate. Yasuo

I dont hate Yas the champ. I hate the people that play him, even if they are on my own team.

Pika Fox3 votes

You dont just "go to another wave". If shes taking CS elsewhere, someone else is rotating to cover the lane she is not in, else someone is losing farm. Punish her by shoving to tower if she refuses to take her own CS and no one else rotates to clear.

HateDaddy3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AWYOXsAc,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-11-01T19:32:14.164+0000)

You dont just "go to another wave". If shes taking CS elsewhere, someone else is rotating to cover the lane she is not in, else someone is losing farm. Punish her by shoving to tower if she refuses to take her own CS and no one else rotates to clear.

It’s not as simple as just “taking a tower” from someone else. Often times she’ll swap with bot and you aren’t going to walk up and take a tower under the nose of an ADC and support. And if it’s a mid laner, they often will clear waves from range at relatively the same pace. Sure, someone might be losing CS but that happens all the time, regardless of who the champions are. The difference is, Irelia does it way better than any other fighter/bruiser.

Pika Fox2 votes

I said "push to tower" not "take tower". If no one is there, kill your own creeps. Deny XP and CS, and reset the lane. If she swaps with bot, swap back as well. If someone is losing CS, thats a MASSIVE advantage for your team.

HateDaddy3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AWYOXsAc,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2018-11-01T21:16:36.829+0000)

I said "push to tower" not "take tower". If no one is there, kill your own creeps. Deny XP and CS, and reset the lane. If she swaps with bot, swap back as well. If someone is losing CS, thats a MASSIVE advantage for your team.

You’re missing the point. She clears waves so fast that even if you swap back to fight her, she will have already cleared the wave and shoved it and moved on. Someone mentioned in this thread earlier that it’s even annoying to have on your team because she will hog a lot of CS. But it’s not like the CS is going to waste, she scales fairly well. And this is why it’s frustrating because you can’t truly shut her down.

Linna Excel2 votes

Is this why her mid-lane is so problematic? That she can shove and roam pretty well from there?

SH Azykan1 votes

that and her all in threat on mages is really high and she outduels most assassins thanks to W

Pika Fox1 votes

So pick a non mage and non assassin into her. Not that complex.

SH Azykan1 votes

which are the 2 most common types of mids, hence why she does better mid than top.

Pika Fox1 votes

You can shut her down pretty well. Pick renekton, darius or garen into her. Anyone that stomps her in lane. Even if she wants to go elsewhere, shes just a free and easy kill.

Besides, if she just goes elsewhere and hard shoves, your team gets a free freeze in another lane, and your lane that you were stomping her in is now reset and the enemy team lost gold. Their team now has an irelia who is behind who just put more laners behind.

FridgeD2 votes

Irelia threat number 5141566165198441542# this week on boards. checking op.gg 19,42% playrate 49,00% winrate w,e and r are dodgeable skills.

you are a jax main! pls stfu about things being broken. your champ is a braindead rightclick machine with 0 counter play and 50,92% winrate!

boards is fun, you can just copy your old comments for the 6th jax main (yes, your champ is a braindead dumb rightclick machine) in the 5141566165198441542# cry post on boards about irelia being so op with her amazing 49% winrate.

HateDaddy8 votes

{quoted}

Irelia threat number 5141566165198441542# this week on boards. checking op.gg 19,42% playrate 49,00% winrate w,e and r are dodgeable skills.

you are a jax main! pls stfu about things being broken. your champ is a braindead rightclick machine with 0 counter play and 50,92% winrate!

boards is fun, you can just copy your old comments for the 6th jax main (yes, your champ is a braindead dumb rightclick machine) in the 5141566165198441542# cry post on boards about irelia being so op with her amazing 49% winrate.

Please do not reference statistics when you don’t even understand their applications. Thank you.

FridgeD2 votes

"applications" good joke! the jax main got you, right? her winrate is consistent through all ranks. jax has a higher winrate, while being completly braindead. you just want a champ, that you dont play, removed from yoloq. irelia actually is fair. you can dodge her stuff and bully her in lane. you play a braindead champ with a dodge, you should now that.

btw what counter play has your stat stick champ? dodge jax q?

HateDaddy5 votes

{quoted}

"applications" good joke! the jax main got you, right? her winrate is consistent through all ranks. jax has a higher winrate, while being completly braindead. you just want a champ, that you dont play, removed from yoloq. irelia actually is fair. you can dodge her stuff and bully her in lane. you play a braindead champ with a dodge, you should now that.

btw what counter play has your stat stick champ? dodge jax q?

I honestly won’t even waste time dignifying this with a real response. Enjoy your evening.

ModBianca Colt3 votes

Damn, someone really doesn't like Jax.

[sg-miss-fortune]

Gilgayu2 votes

Most experienced Irelia probably won't abuse the q reset for wave clear, but rather abuse the healing from q when fighting the enemy team. According to your point, the worst part of Irelia is her waveclear and map pressure, but to be honest I always find her just a team fight monster that can dive into back line, kill all of them regardless of their peel, then escaping with more half hp.

Tbh I totally agree with nerfing more ms (possibly 10?), but increasing the cd on q would definitely punish miscalculation on a failed attempt to reset q

Linna Excel1 votes

I was looking at her numbers today and a bunch of tops/mids have good matchups against her.

Still, I think she and Akali should probably be reworked again.

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